TWD 3x16 "Welcome to the Tombs" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

[babomb]

That would be awesome! They should have done that for April Fools, and then aired the real finale next week. You mean the finale from 2 days ago isn't an early April fools joke? The real finale isn't on next week?

[JonOfTheShred]

The best I can say about the season finale is that it wasn't the worst episode in the series and that it was, at times, pretty entertaining. At times it felt pretty dumb too. I agree with you - some of it felt pretty dumb. I cringed at some of those extras that walked off the bus at the end of the episode. In particular, this one blonde haired kid looked like such a doofus. True, the prison assault played against expectations. I was expecting something a bit less sloppy. Like so many scenes, it must have looked pretty sweet on paper but played out on the screen it felt stupid. The 'trap' didn't look like a trap at all and felt really awkward. The troops fleeing the prison and hardly firing back, ... Again, we are not very far removed from flat out satire here. That section did come across as sloppy. I was laughing AT the Woodbury troops, and how fast they turned tail. It was just smoked bombs, flashing lights and loud noises. Attacking them on all senses. But the way it happened did feel a bit hokey, and I still think they could have built the tension more, getting deeper into the prison. The Governor gunning down his army... These guys were armed to the teeth and not one of them fires back? The only person holding a gun at that point is the first person the governor shoots in the face, the random black guy. That is why they all start running - they didn't hold on to their guns when they jumped off the tracks or whatever, they were expecting just to chat with the Governor, their leader. They have no idea he is a threat, at this point. Re-watch the scene, none of those people are holding guns besides one, maybe two of them. Really dug the Milton/Andrea scenes though. they saved the episode for me. At last we get some real suspense, some real emotion. Andrea deserved so much better that what the writers came up with this season, but her death at least was one of the best so far. A well written 'death trap' and one that i hadn't seen before in the genre. I enjoyed it too. I agree with the general complaints about Andrea not trying to free herself enough, and stopping to chat too much, but I also didn't think this was happening over the course of hours. I took it as a half hour - 45 minute time period with all combined Andrea scenes, including her death. The time lapse didn't seem excessive to me, but that's just how I read into it. Michonne and Andrea was a good moment. It sucks Andrea only became humbled in this last episode. I still think a better actress could have been chosen, but Laurie Holden is a good actress. Just not the right person for Andrea. Andrea from the comics was sweet most of the time. Andrea from the show was smug and condescending. I also like where they are going with Carl. Setting up epic discussions about which approach is best to survival in this world/retaining one's humanity echoes the best of the Shane vs Rick moments. Carl is definitely taking some influence from Shane and Morgan as well. I think he was RIGHT in shooting that kid. The kids body language suggested he did NOT take Carl seriously. If you rewatch the episode, just minutes before that we see that kid "Jody" in the prison with a nasty expression on his face. He does not look nice by any means, he looks like a little prick. Glad Carl shot him in the face. The prison sure is getting crowded ... May be a chance for the writers to put in a certain storyline from the comics that involved the inmates ... At least there is enough cannon fodder, zombie chow there for a governor vindication down the line. Zombie chow is exactly how I see them. A few will survive, but most should be wiped out in a HUGE zombie attack, like on the scales of the final act in a Romero film. Gratuitous feasting

[krisvds]

I agree with you - some of it felt pretty dumb. I cringed at some of those extras that walked off the bus at the end of the episode. In particular, this one blonde haired kid looked like such a doofus. The Woodbury extras often were most cringeworthy That section did come across as sloppy. I was laughing AT the Woodbury troops, and how fast they turned tail. It was just smoked bombs, flashing lights and loud noises. Attacking them on all senses. But the way it happened did feel a bit hokey, and I still think they could have built the tension more, getting deeper into the prison. No kidding. So much potential to up the tension ... The dark corridors of the prison are genre gold but they were too reluctant to use it? Weird. The only person holding a gun at that point is the first person the governor shoots in the face, the random black guy. That is why they all start running - they didn't hold on to their guns when they jumped off the tracks or whatever, they were expecting just to chat with the Governor, their leader. They have no idea he is a threat, at this point. Re-watch the scene, none of those people are holding guns besides one, maybe two of them. You are right. I stand corrected. Those guys were all (conveniently?) unarmed at that point. Zombie chow is exactly how I see them. A few will survive, but most should be wiped out in a HUGE zombie attack, like on the scales of the final act in a Romero film. Gratuitous feasting

[Neil]

Glen and Maggie both had the chance to cut them down, including the Gov but they must've forgot what he did to them or something. That felt like a scene out of the A-Team - A million bullets and not one person hit? The only guy shot by the scooby gang was a boy handing in his gun for the sake of Carl's limp character exploration. Enjoyed other parts of it, but it sort of fizzled out at the end... ...and we still have the Governor hanging around with two of his gorillas... Was sort of hoping we'd get a fresh start next season. - - - Updated - - - I agree with the general complaints about Andrea not trying to free herself enough[ A number of times I was talking to the TV and raising my hands up in the air at her apathy to the situation! Just imagine all those times she was sitting there doing nothing (other than chatting), if she'd instead been doing something... Other than that, nice scene!

[shootemindehead]

Yeh, it was a little bit Country and a little bit Rock'n'Roll, this one. So called "season finales" don't mean that much to us folks over this side of the pond, so I wasn't expecting WWIII or anything. But, the prison assault was a bit of a let down. The Gov wasting his folk was great, OTOH. There's no two ways about it now. But really, why the hell did Rick and co. elect to bring back the Woodburyites to the flippin prison and not stay at Woodbury instead? That really doesn't make a whole heck of sense to me. Clearly Woodbury is the better place to be, no? When compared to a cold damp prison cell, a nice bed in a proper gaff would trump that any day of the week. Especially now, when half the town are brown bread. Sure you'd have the run of the place. Bit mad that. Glad Andrea is gone. Holden is decent, but her portrayal of Andrea was all wrong. A thoroughly irritating character, at times I was hoping someone would punch her lights out (with her screwy face and slack jaw), although the interweb rage by some of its more limited members was ridiculous, to say the least. Like everyone else here, I was somewhat incredulous at her apparent lack of fu*k giving regarding Milton's revival (who I am VERY sorry to see go). A much better ending to that set up would have been Milton taking a chunk out of her still tied up body just as Team Prison burst through the door, as someone else pointed out. No, not that good an episode, but not the worst either. But, I'd actually place it below 'Vatos', if I'm honest, apart from the Milton/Andrea parts (even if they were a bit silly over all). Hopefully next year there will be an upping of the ante and a consistant run. The first half of S3 was fantastic, but the latter half left a good bit to be desired.

[MinionZombie]

Some interview snippets with Laurie Holden: http://dailydead.com/spoilers-the-wa...laurie-holden/ Particularly: The way the scene was filmed when Andrea frees herself, it seemed like it really could have gone either way for her. Was there talk about changing her outcome? Laurie Holden: There were two versions of that that were shot. The first one portrayed her as the ultimate victim and that was not the story that I think needed to be told or that any of us could put our shoulder behind. We went back and did another version — the final version — which is much more satisfactory. Andrea went out with grace, dignity and was reunited with people she loved and was able to voice how she felt and what was in her heart. After a tumultuous season, I’m so grateful that she was able to say what needed to be said and share that with her family. Are you stratified with how she went out? Laurie Holden: One-hundred percent. [Season four showrunner] Scott Gimple did the second version of her passing and I will be forever grateful to him for honoring this character and allowing her to go out with grace. What was written was perfect, organic and true to the character. It couldn’t have been penned more beautifully. Andrea spends her last moments talking about why she didn’t kill the Governor when she had the chance. You’re a human rights activist; can you relate to her dilemma? A: Absolutely, 100 percent. Listen, do I think it’s sad and a bit depressing that this woman got caught up in a bad situation and ended up losing her life? Yes, it is obviously a tragedy. But I truly believe Andrea’s death was not in vain. She went down fighting for the people. She believed in humanity. And at the end of the day, that is all that matters, really. Sometimes one must fall for the others to rise. And I am glad it was her and not any of the people she loved and cared for. What do you think about your character’s arc on the show? A: It’s been such an incredible journey; the fact that this woman who was once suicidal and had no will to live, was able to grow, evolve and emerge not only as a survivor but as a leader? That’s been such an amazing gift for me as an artist. And I feel blessed to have had a three-season run. I am truly proud of this woman’s journey; I love who she became and what she stood for at the end of the world. After losing everyone and everything, she never lost her heart. ... I dug the finale. The fact that it wasn't another 20 minute showdown, this time against the living instead of the undead (season 2) shows that the writers aren't just pandering to mass appeal. Let's face it most people like action, maybe that's why mainstream cinema pumps out so many action movies with no character depth and lame plots. Sad to see Milton go, definitely my favorite addition to the cast in season 3, for me he had the sensibilities of a sane Dr Logan. For reasons of personal satisfaction I wish he'd blown the piss out of the Governor, however it's great that Morrissey is coming back for more of TWD. I think Andrea handed the torch over to Michonne in that last scene they had, although 2 action-women in the group would have been fine by me. The Governor's reaction to the Woodbury-ites was spot on. No power and control over them, therefore they were no use to him; pop,pop,pop ! As many of you predicted, during the prison assault they bolted at the first sign of trouble. Taking in the refugees was the right thing to do, and not just from a traditional ethical viewpoint. IMO cooperation is the key to surviving any kind of apocalypse; not John J Rambo escapades, they maybe entertaining but in reality they're bullshit. Who knows what kind of skills some of the refugees might have, and we'll never know because they're all extras. You need a group to survive, we're human beings not tigers. Everyone does what they can and nobody is completely self-sufficient. That's why we've had social structures since the year dot; yes ? The trick to surviving an apocalypse is knowing who to cooperate with. IMO the scene with Carl shooting the kid really hi-lights this point. Assuming the kid had swallowed the Governor's rhetoric about team prison, he probably intended to pull the trigger if Carl had grabbed the shotgun. It was the Governor's last words to Milton in action; kill or be killed etc. The kid was thinking fuck it they're going to kill me anyway. No wonder he was scared, as far as he was concerned Carl and crew were psychos. I think Hershel read it wrong, and Carl not being bogged down by social conventions got it right. Ultimately though, the kid was just another casualty of the Governor. If he'd cooperated and put the gun down he'd still be alive and traded a sociopath for a true leader. Carl could have warned him though.....Little bastard ! I'm with the Day of the Dead vibe on this. The cooperators survive; the separators die. Where are Rhodes and crew now ? Sarah however is probably still sunning herself on the beach, and rightly so, she had bigger balls. All very well said, Morto - several nails hit bang on the head. No-ones claiming the show doesn't have problems. Yes, some of the acting and writing at times is pretty bad but some of us have chosen NOT to focus on that. I for one enjoy the escapism in TWD universe. I've said it before but i'll repeat it here again. I watch TWD to be entertained and I am thoroughly entertained. Virtually every week. Its only when I go online and start reading that people are bitching and moaning about this and that, that I start to question my own judgement. I shouldn't do that because it doesn't really matter what other people think. Its about MY enjoyment of the show and thats what it should be for all of us. If I was watching week in and week out and not enjoying myself then thats a whole different matter. Also well said. If I was so pissed off at the show all the time, I wouldn't bloody watch it (that's exactly why I gave up on the utterly inferior "The Following"). To me, getting so wound up, is an unfair exercise - you'd be making it worse for yourself because of yourself in the end. In no rational argument is TWD Season 3 deserving of the sheer vitriol from some folks. Yet again though, this is not me (or fellow posters who share a similar opinion, such as kidgloves) saying that there aren't problems to be solved and things that could have been fixed/improved/polished. Like kidgloves, I've been thoroughly entertained throughout, even with some legitimate areas that need tweaking/improving. Anyway, I'm blessed with pretty low standards...or maybe it isn't low standards, just an ability to enjoy things for what they are. If any drama or action shows didn't have people making silly, illogical choices, there really wouldn't be much drama or action...Hell, look at real life, you don't see an awfull lot of rational behaviour here either! Gently caressing his stump... 1) Don't put down your own opinion - if you feel a certain way, then own it - everyone's entitled to their opinion, even if I don't agree with everything some people say, or perhaps anything they might say. They're entitled to it, just as much as I (and you) are. Own it, Sir. Own it. 2) Hilariously gross. @ kidgloves It makes me wonder why the people who excessively moan about TWD still watch it every week ? I've wondered this several times in recent weeks. Tell me about it, been worried about this guy for years Ah, so you do love me! I understand about concerns of "The Walking OAP's", but it does mean they can send stronger forces out from the prison in the future, I'm sure a few of the olds can be taught to wield a rifle and defend the home while the stronger group goes out foraging/on missions. Food may be a problem though...I hope they looted the fuck out of Woodbury for weapons, ammo, medical supplies and other essential goodies. That big military truck will be handy in the future as well, if a smaller scout group finds a really good stash, the truck can be sent there and really loaded up. Many of our elders are stronger than we think. They've seen some shit in their time, they'll be able to be useful. Military truck? I thought it was a prison/school bus? But yes - that'll definitely come in hand for looting supplies - and it can also be a great place to lock yourself in for a safe night's kip, so you'd be able to go on an extended supply run. I saw a preview image with what seemed like the prison bus back on it's feet and I thought they were going to flee the prison and live on the road perhaps ... but yeah, you certainly can use that bus for very good things. Interesting that them taking the bus will now mean that Woodbury will be infested. Well Minion you will be happy to note that I was rather moved by Andrea's last moments. Especially with Michonne and Andrea's joke at Rick about "knowing how the safety works". And Rick commenting about "their" group as her group as well. It really was a respectable way to end her character. Very honorable that she didnt want anyone else to carry the burden of doing the deed. I extremely miss Dale, and Lori and am sure I will feel the same of Andrea. Kind of disappointed that Daryl and her didnt share more personal goodbye. TO MINION: I am guilty of letting my expectations based off of season two finale interfere. The episode wasnt bad at all. In fact it had several great moments. Minion you were dead right about Dale's comments about losing their humanity. Many people hated Dale but I absolutely agreed with what he said. Live for something or die for nothing(Rambo, John J.) I would choose to survive the Zombie apoc but not at the expense of my character and humanity. May that cause my death? Yep but thats what I would chose. Thats just what I stand for. I know many may disagree with that and thats fine. Carls new badass attitude may allow him to live forever but what will differentiate him from the Gov? To answer your earlier question, yes I would have rescued the Woodbury folks. I recognize the strain and hardship it will add but I couldnt live with myself for leaving children and elderly defenseless. Its worth the fight. Glad you dug that moment as much as I did. I think Daryl's a man of few words, a look is as good as anything for him ... all those "unspoken feels" and such. I'm with you, I'd much rather die while trying to protect a purpose in surviving in this horrid zombie apocalypse, than allow myself to live forever as a despicable bastard. It's a moral code right at the very heart of all things TWD. I don't see how that would make you some 'bleeding heart pansy' - if some bastard's going to try and shoot me, I'd shoot them first, but at the same time I wouldn't stand idly by when someone is in need (what if you/I were the one who was in-need?) ... there's a fine moral line to be walked in this zombie apocalypse, and that's something which is hard to convey to Carl - and clearly that's part of the reason that Rick's donning his Sheriff's badge once more. The appropriate amount of fucks must now be given. Yeah. The safety on a revolver? What a (surely unintentionally) hilarious way of highlighting how Andrea wasn't a fraction as smart as she thought she was. Simply a call back to 1x02 and her first meeting with Rick, she knows damn well a revolver doesn't have a safety on it - it's just a joke to relieve the tension and share a common moment between the two of them. After giving it some serious thought I came to the conclusion that I really dug this episode overall. The episode opening with the closeup of The Governor's eye to mirror 3x1. In "Seed", the episode opens with one of the walkers eye's before revealing the monster behind it. You could say that The Governor is no different; from one type of monster to another. And finally, like someone mentioned above, The bit between Rick and Andrea before her death was great. Michonne included. 1) Good man. Around the web I've seen numerous reactionary proclamations of hatred for the episode ... but many good things have initially received harsh views. 2) Ah-ha! That must be what one of the producers (IIRC, Alpert) said in an interivew. He said there was some small detail that referred to the start of the season ... I assume that's what it must be anyway. I hadn't noticed that - good spot! 3) I know. A great scene - I loved how Rick said "us" instead of "them" to Andrea. It's tugging on my heart strings right now.

[Neil]

Anyone else question why return to the prison and not just move into Woodbury?

[JonOfTheShred]

The Governor would know all about Woodbury, and any secret entrances the town may have. He helped put up its defenses himself. Seeing as how he had an intimate knowledge of the town and its fortifications, I can understand why Rick would bring the people back to the prison. Not saying I agree or disagree with his thinking, but I can see why he would do such a thing. In all honesty, AMC is just trying to wring all the worth they can out of the prison set. I really hope they surprise me and have a herd tear through it in the 2 hour premiere of Season 4, wiping out 75% of the new red-shirts in one fell swoop and forcing the group back on the road. Perhaps THEN they will try to retreat back to Woodbury, only to find it burnt to the ground.

[shootemindehead]

Anyone else question why return to the prison and not just move into Woodbury? Yeh.

[kidgloves]

Anyone else question why return to the prison and not just move into Woodbury? For about a second, then I remembered how easily Rick and the gang got into Woodbury. Its setup to defend against walkers/biters not armed assaults.

[MinionZombie]

The reason they didn't go to Woodbury... Well defended against walkers. Piss weakly defended against humans (how easily did Team Prison sneak in - very easily). Plus it's The Guv's home turf. It's easier to defend the prison too. It's up in the air whether they'll be at the prison all season long or not - I'd imagine they'd have to scarper maybe half-way through the season ... but Kirkman also said in an interview (that I posted in an earlier response) that there'd be more new locations in this world to see. I think that's definitely key to keep things fresh - these last few episodes we've had some new locations to visit and it helped freshen things up, not-to-mention give us a better look at the world around them ... see little glimpses of stories that happened long ago ... see other parts of the lives that have long since been abandoned or snuffed out. I do really hope we get a bumper-edition premiere for season 4, too. 3x01 kicked things off with a ruddy good bang, but I wanted it to feel like even more of an event screening, you know? I would very much like 4x01 to be an extended episode. Take note AMC & Pals.

[facestabber]

Anyone else question why return to the prison and not just move into Woodbury? I think from a defense stand point, Rick is much more comfortable. The prison walls alone provide some serious security. It's not pretty and filled with resources like Woodbury but simply is safer. Hopefully the bus and vehicles are loaded with extra weapons and supplies. I def would have grabbed the govs booze stash and get shit faced once in a while.

[AcesandEights]

Yeah, kinda thought there were enough obvious reasons, or possible rationales for why Woodbury might not be a good choice, at least for now. Hope they got some of the easier to transport equipment out of there...maybe some of the smaller solar panels and associated smaller hardware? One more reason it sucks that Milton bit it.

[MinionZombie]

Aye - RIP Milton, most certainly. I really liked his character and really wanted to see him join Team Prison, but alas... Team Prison do have themselves a 50 cal machine gun though on that HumVee (with blown out tyres), so that's a bonus, and of course they could head back to the scene of the massacre and pinch those remaining vehicles (there would no doubt be a bunch of weapons and ammo stashed in the back of those). Get pilfering, chaps!

[Staredge]

I would think they'd have already scavenged the slaughter site, either on the way to Woodbury or the way back.