The "Land" AFTER "Day" debate... an old topic, but some things to consider

[babomb]

Captain Rhodes: "McDermott doesn't have decent radio gear. And now, you're telling me that you don't have the shit you need? We're running low on ammunition. I'm running low on men for Christ's sake! Who in Washington DC put this loony farm together like this?" Sarah: "It was very rushed. This whole operation was put together in a matter of days." Captain Rhodes: "Yeah? Well it can all be taken apart in a matter of minutes, lady! I'm ready to tell you that I'm ready to do just that! I'm ready to shut this whole thing down and take the next train out of here!" It was an "organized" effort, put together hurriedly, to find a solution. There may have even been who-knows-how many more out there, slapped together in a hurry & stashed away somewhere "safe" at the last minute, as society fell. We know they used to be in contact w/ DC via satellite relays as well, which has now gone silent... Johnson: "We used to talk to Washington all the time. They could hear us then." McDermott: "We were on relays then. We weren't over the air. The power is off on the mainland now in case you haven't heard, and all the shopping malls are closed!" Guess I shoulda watched it again before commenting. It's been at least 5-6 years since I've watched it. It's the one I've watched the least. It's kinda drawn out so I always go for Dawn.

[facestabber]

Very iteresting read. I wonder if someone on this site will be seeing Romero at a comic con or something and can point blank ask the man what the timeline is. It would be funny to cut to the chase and have the man end the theories.

[MoonSylver]

Guess I shoulda watched it again before commenting. It's been at least 5-6 years since I've watched it. It's the one I've watched the least. It's kinda drawn out so I always go for Dawn. I've seen them all so many times over the years now the dialog is seared into my brain.

[shootemindehead]

So let me ask you EvilNed. You seem reasonably smart, well adjusted, capable, etc. Are you saying that you think after only a few weeks/months, when faced with the possible (not certain) "end", that you would turn into a maniacal killer? For sure none of us knows what we would do in any situation until we are actually in it, but I tend to think that I would not be ready to kill people over being late to a meeting after only a couple of months of bleakness, and I am not an army officer, but just a regular dude. All armies are microcosims of society and society produces some real fucked up anomalies from time to time, even with the absence of extremely stressful sitatuations. How do you know that Rhodes wasn't already a "maniacal killer" and that the apocalypse simply hasn't given him carte blanche to unleash his more baser attributes? That, coupled with the fact that he's now running the "monkey farm", could be the ingredient for his final twists. Rhodes is clearly unhinged and is seen as such by the people in the bunker, before he gets to weild power over the unit. Fisher says that compared to Rhodes, Major Cooper was a "sweetheart". This infers that Rhodes wasn't a likable guy before the events depicted in the film.

[EvilNed]

So let me ask you EvilNed. You seem reasonably smart, well adjusted, capable, etc. Are you saying that you think after only a few weeks/months, when faced with the possible (not certain) "end", that you would turn into a maniacal killer? For sure none of us knows what we would do in any situation until we are actually in it, but I tend to think that I would not be ready to kill people over being late to a meeting after only a couple of months of bleakness, and I am not an army officer, but just a regular dude. No, I do not, because I am reasonably smart, well adjusted, capable etc. etc. None of these are attributes I would use to describe Rhodes and his gang.

[AcesandEights]

If you guys think months of watching the world go down the toilet; the incomprehensible event of the dead rising; the cruel and likely torturous deaths of many, possibly most or all of the people you cared about; the inability of man to cope with, contain or deal with the problem and, in many ways only compound them; and then, to top it all off, get sealed in a can with dwindling resources, loss of contact with the outside world and direction; with a seemingly endless horde on your doorstep and a gnawing feeling in your gut that most of the world is dead or dying isn't enough to leave a lot of people emotional wrecks, especially after months of stress piling up and a lack of rest...well...I don't know what to say.

[Trin]

@Moon - Great post up there! Good solid information! I think Rhodes is getting a bit of a raw deal in this thread. He wasn't a murdering psychopath. In his first dialogue on screen he made some very good points. The military lost 5 men. They were expected to risk their lives daily to gather and house the undead. They were expected to live, eat, and sleep next to the undead. And the scientists were giving them nothing in return. No information. No end point. No progress. He was getting nothing but a mouthful of greek salad. And to top it off they were drugging his men. The man has good reason to be irritated. You can't call him a murdering psychopath for threatening to have Steele shoot Sarah. The scientists in general and Sarah in particular questioned his authority in the first 24 hours after the former CO died. If he were a murdering psychopath he would've just shot her himself without warning as an example to the others. He gave her plenty of chances to sit back down. No shootings occurred until after the big reveal that the scientists were feeding his troops to the undead. After that all bets are off. In the best light the scientists are immoral and unethical bordering on insane. In the worst light they are traitorous and Rhodes was justified in executing them. I'm not saying that Rhodes was not unbalanced. But the scientists expected a lot of the military and ultimately looked very culpable in screwing the military. Logan definitely deserved what he got... and in the eyes of the military the entire research team was a party to the same behavior. I pin the blame on Logan rather than Rhodes.

[MoonSylver]

Honestly, there's plenty of blame on both sides, which is part of the point. By the time of Day we've come full circle to one of the messages of Night: our inability to work together, to get along, & to see things from each others points of view leads to our undoing. There was plenty of dysfunction & mental instability on both sides as well, come to think of it...:crazy: The military may have had the edge in terms of QUANTITY of spoon in yer ass crazy, but ol' Doc certainly had them in terms of QUALITY...

[shootemindehead]

@Moon - Great post up there! Good solid information! I think Rhodes is getting a bit of a raw deal in this thread. He wasn't a murdering psychopath. In his first dialogue on screen he made some very good points. The military lost 5 men. They were expected to risk their lives daily to gather and house the undead. They were expected to live, eat, and sleep next to the undead. And the scientists were giving them nothing in return. No information. No end point. No progress. He was getting nothing but a mouthful of greek salad. And to top it off they were drugging his men. The man has good reason to be irritated. He may or may not be a murdering psychopath, but he is clearly an unlikable person and is viewed as very dangerous by the civilian element in the bunker. As said earlier, Fisher says that Cooper was a sweetheart compared to Rhodes and tells Sarah to physically "watch" herself. His council is based on good observation, as Rhodes makes a very overt sexual threat to Sarah a few scenes later. Make no mistake, Rhodes is not a nice guy, or even that reasonable. He is the villian of the piece, he's written as such and played as such by Pilato. You can't call him a murdering psychopath for threatening to have Steele shoot Sarah. The scientists in general and Sarah in particular questioned his authority in the first 24 hours after the former CO died. If he were a murdering psychopath he would've just shot her himself without warning as an example to the others. He gave her plenty of chances to sit back down. Rhodes doesn't have any authority. The operation in the bunker is a civilian operation and the duties of the reservist military element within was to facilitate that operation. Rhodes is a self imposed dictator. His authority hasn't been sanctioned by anybody, but himself. As for him shooting her himself, he probably wouldn't. As observed by John in a later scene, he would have "Steele do it" and as it plays out he threatens Steele at the end of a gun to shoot Sarah. In short, Rhodes is a dirtbag. No shootings occurred until after the big reveal that the scientists were feeding his troops to the undead. After that all bets are off. In the best light the scientists are immoral and unethical bordering on insane. In the worst light they are traitorous and Rhodes was justified in executing them. Wrong. LOGAN is feeding Bub, not the scientists, who are as appalled by his actions as the others are. I'm not saying that Rhodes was not unbalanced. But the scientists expected a lot of the military and ultimately looked very culpable in screwing the military. Logan definitely deserved what he got... and in the eyes of the military the entire research team was a party to the same behavior. I pin the blame on Logan rather than Rhodes. There's a pair of them in it. Their level of insanity differs in matters of degree and action.

[Morto Vivente]

I agree with Shootem that Rhodes is the primary villain. IMO all the concern for his men is just a smoke screen for his own fear that everyone is already dead; particularly himself, and he's losing control. Logan/scientific team is the catalyst for Rhodes to unleash what he really feels even before he discovers Logan's deluxe brand of "Beef Treats", it's brewing throughout the entire movie. The shooting of Logan is just the release point. IMO Rhodes attempts to regain a semblance of control by dominating the entire group, both military and civilian, although he's obviously not fit for command. Albeit both Logan and Rhodes are crazy in opposite ways, one compensating with hyper-rationality to the point of insanity and the other overwhelmed by the terror which is consuming him. Neither of them survive, while as we all know, Sarah and crew who kept it together and cooperated did ultimately survive; at least beyond the end of the movie. Just a thought, but possibly John secured his own survival by allowing his feelings for Sarah to influence his decisions, remembering at the start of the movie he said "My job is just to fly the Whirly Bird". He wasn't that keen on going beyond his remit.

[Philly_SWAT]

Great posts by shootem and Morto!

[Trin]

Agreed! Those are some great posts with great points! Wrong. LOGAN is feeding Bub, not the scientists, who are as appalled by his actions as the others are. My statement was in context of defending the military position in light of what they knew at the time. Obviously WE know it was Logan solely taking that action, but in the eyes of the military the scientists were all equally involved. Sarah and Fischer were caught observing the experiment as if they were a party to it all along. Anyone who thinks that Logan's execution at the hands of the military was justified has to acknowledge that Sarah and Fischer could have been executed right then with equal justification. Rhodes not having any authority (and thus it being an authority grab) is an interesting perspective, and one I had not considered. I do recall them saying it was a civilian operation, but I always assumed it was still under military jurisdiction. That is, the military were under orders to facilitate the research team, but were themselves still ultimately in command of the operation. It's pretty clear that Major Cooper was in charge prior to Rhodes. And no one seemed to argue with Rhodes over his right to assume command. The only argument posed by the researchers was whether he was fulfilling the orders given the military. The main shift that seemed to occur as power shifted from Cooper to Rhodes is that Rhodes was not as accomodating to the research staff. I got no sense that Rhodes snatched command from the research team. I also question how unbalanced Rhodes was prior to Cooper's death. You'd think that Fischer would not have to explain things to Sarah about Rhodes since they'd been in the facility for months (some might say years *g*) together already. Obviously this is speculation, but my impression of Rhodes was that he was doing his job just like the others.... to whatever extent you give any of them that credit... and his demise didn't begin until faced with command.

[EvilNed]

Take into consideration that both of these comments state the 3 year mark. I think it's likely that it means something, rather than mere coincidence that both refer to a 3 year time span. Also, if the comment of a "car not driving out of there in 3 years" was not meant to illustrate anything, and was just a exaggeration, why put a number on it? Why not just say "no car has driven out of there in years"? Most films and writers wouldn't do that, and most people in real life wouldn't do that. Like you said-"I haven't been laid in forever", this is intentionally vague in terms of the time span to illustrate a point. If you said-"I haven't been laid in 3 years", most logical people would assume that to be more of a general approximated time span. Not an exaggeration that really means a few months. I think it's quite obvious that Land takes place 3 years after the dead rise. It's stated in dialoge twice. Suggesting that those two references to "three years ago" or "for three years now" mean something else is... just awkward. There is no doubt that Land takes place 3 years into the outbreak. Question is when Day takes place. I personally believe Day takes place sometime around the 1 year mark. Maybe even just a couple of months. I judge that mostly by how the people in the bunker do not seem to know each other that well.

[shootemindehead]

Agreed! Those are some great posts with great points! My statement was in context of defending the military position in light of what they knew at the time. Obviously WE know it was Logan solely taking that action, but in the eyes of the military the scientists were all equally involved. Sarah and Fischer were caught observing the experiment as if they were a party to it all along. Not really though. Rhodes etc burst in on the procedings and they're (Billy and Sarah) shocked at what they are witnessing. Sarah and Billy are staring at Logan and saying "oh my god". It would take some leap to believe that they were in on Logan's little plan. In any case, Rhodes later kills Fisher for no real reason, other than to make others do his bidding and then gets Steele to knock some sense into John's "junglebunny" head. While the guy may have some sort of right to be upset at Logan's feeding of dead soldier flesh to Bub in his experiment, there is no way on earth that his previous or susequent actions can be considered justified. Rhodes not having any authority (and thus it being an authority grab) is an interesting perspective, and one I had not considered. I do recall them saying it was a civilian operation, but I always assumed it was still under military jurisdiction. That is, the military were under orders to facilitate the research team, but were themselves still ultimately in command of the operation. It's pretty clear that Major Cooper was in charge prior to Rhodes. And no one seemed to argue with Rhodes over his right to assume command. The only argument posed by the researchers was whether he was fulfilling the orders given the military. The main shift that seemed to occur as power shifted from Cooper to Rhodes is that Rhodes was not as accomodating to the research staff. I got no sense that Rhodes snatched command from the research team. Nobody argued because they probably figured Rhodes out for what he was and arguing would have been pointless. Besides, I doubt anyone would have a problem with Rhodes being in charge of HIS men. That's the chain of command. However, he certainly has no authority over the civilians in the bunker. That much is made very clear by Fisher's dialogue. From the moment Rhodes is on screen, he is clearly an unlikeable character. Also Fisher clearly indicates that the operation is a civilan one and not a military one. The military are to "facilitate" the scientific team, that's all. By facilitate, I presume that that meant to help the scientific team in what the needed for their work. If Romero had meant it to be a military operation, I think he would have made that clear. Fisher: "Since when did this become a military operation?" Rhodes: "Since I took over." All we hear about Major Cooper though is that he died in the morning and that compared to Rhodes, he was a "sweetheart". He promised something to Fisher and the scientists, to which Rhodes callously replies that "Major Cooper is dead". I assume that whatever it was he promised was agreeable to Fisher etc, but Rhodes isn't interested. I also question how unbalanced Rhodes was prior to Cooper's death. You'd think that Fischer would not have to explain things to Sarah about Rhodes since they'd been in the facility for months (some might say years *g*) together already. Obviously this is speculation, but my impression of Rhodes was that he was doing his job just like the others.... to whatever extent you give any of them that credit... and his demise didn't begin until faced with command. Rhodes, as a Captain, was second in command to the Major, so he may well have been kept under control by him. He doesn't seem to care very much that Cooper was dead, from his words, so it's possible that he was a "kept dog", with the leash in Coopers hands. With Cooper out of the way (perhaps Rhodes did him in?), the reins were off and it was his time now, to run the "monkey farm". As for Fisher telling Sarah to watch herself, he may only have been putting into words what everybody had been aware of for a long time. That kind of thing happens all the time.

[Trin]

I see what you're saying, and I agree with you to a large extent. But I maintain that no real authority grab was made by Rhodes when he took command. The research team had no leader and no chain of command and no direct authority over the military. Their only leverage was that the military had been given orders to facilitate them. And when Rhodes took command he interpreted that set of orders differently than Cooper did. Which, if you remove Rhodes being a d-bag from the equation and just look at the situation, made sense. They were losing men. They were overworked. They were making mistakes. And the research team was getting nowhere with no demonstrable progress. The best thing the military could've done was refuse support and scale back (if not outright shut down) the operation. We know Logan's work was worthless. Fischer was trying to feed them beef treats. And Sarah admitted her work might take years to lead to anything. Maybe *we* saw that Sarah and Fischer were shocked at what Logan was doing, but I don't think Rhodes saw that. My personal opinion is that he was not justified in executing Logan. But I think it would've eventually come to that had they worked it out and put him on trial. The only positive to that would've been they might've discerned the truth which would've saved Sarah and Fischer. I agree wholeheartedly that Rhodes was the villain and unlikeable from the start. And it's hard to paint a picture where he does not lead the group to some bad end. I think he had it in him to take his men and the helicopter and screw the rest of them. I just don't like ALL of his behavior and actions portrayed as villainous.