TWD 4x04 "Indifference" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[facestabber]

Wylde I still do not understand how you can use a 'slippery slope' argument as evidence Rick is some power hungry evil man. And then defend Carol. She sat with the counsel, they made a plan of action regarding the illness, then on her own took unilateral action and killed two people. That is a knee jerk reaction and isnt just a slippery slope. Its a black diamond mountain covered in plastic and coated with astro glide. The reactions you see from Hershel and Maggie are showing you that the group trusts and believes in Rick. There is no perfection in leadership but the group wants Rick. They portray it very clearly. Now if the counsel had banished Carol would they receive the same condemnation as 'killers without killing'? Again I ask if Rick put a .357 through Carol's skull do you believe that is truly the same? Im wondering if Rick represents a person of authority to some of you and that in life you naturally are against that? Was it the fact he wore a police officers uniform that have people so bothered by him? Im beginning to think that it is. Supporters of Rick have challenged and chastised him. Either people prefer to pretend it didnt happen to strengthen their resolve that fanboys are delusional, or didnt read the forums. I will just repeat an example from my past regarding Rick. I hated his decision regarding Michonne. I was ready to write him off for considering that as an option. I was pissed at Daryl for not calling him a moron and to fuck off(certified Daryl fan) and for Hershel to stand idle as well. And Rick's intent was just like Carol's in this case, "for the good of the group". Dale had a point about losing ones humanity. Is surving for the sake of surviving, without humanity, worth it?

[Legion2213]

Wylde I still do not understand how you can use a 'slippery slope' argument as evidence Rick is some power hungry evil man. And then defend Carol. She sat with the counsel, they made a plan of action regarding the illness, then on her own took unilateral action and killed two people. That is a knee jerk reaction and isnt just a slippery slope. Its a black diamond mountain covered in plastic and coated with astro glide. The reactions you see from Hershel and Maggie are showing you that the group trusts and believes in Rick. There is no perfection in leadership but the group wants Rick. They portray it very clearly. Now if the counsel had banished Carol would they receive the same condemnation as 'killers without killing'? Again I ask if Rick put a .357 through Carol's skull do you believe that is truly the same? Im wondering if Rick represents a person of authority to some of you and that in life you naturally are against that? Was it the fact he wore a police officers uniform that have people so bothered by him? Im beginning to think that it is. Supporters of Rick have challenged and chastised him. Either people prefer to pretend it didnt happen to strengthen their resolve that fanboys are delusional, or didnt read the forums. I will just repeat an example from my past regarding Rick. I hated his decision regarding Michonne. I was ready to write him off for considering that as an option. I was pissed at Daryl for not calling him a moron and to fuck off(certified Daryl fan) and for Hershel to stand idle as well. And Rick's intent was just like Carol's in this case, "for the good of the group". Dale had a point about losing ones humanity. Is surving for the sake of surviving, without humanity, worth it? Looking at Beth lately, the answer is obvious, all she does is bang on about "getting through, surviving, moving on"...her eyes are dead, Hershel would be broken hearted if he saw her lately. You need hope to stay human, hope that there is a good settlement somewhere, hope that the walkers will die out/rot away, hope for some kind of future...I think Rick's farming is an example of that.

[Wyldwraith]

I NEVER said that *Carol's* own action wasn't in and of itself an example of Unilateral/Kneejerk action-taking, That actually highlights the problem. To bring it into more specific relief, the very fact that most of those who've supported the Rick-character's decision have GONE ON to say they themselves would have returned Carol to the Prison for the Council to handle means that most here recognize that Unilateral Action, mixed with Life And Death decision-making is a recipe for instability and ripening chaos in any social group. As to the allegation that Rick represents an authority figure for me I'm lashing out at by proxy, I'll be brutally honest and confess that each and every authority figure that has actively antagonized me beyond a certain reasonable difference of opinion level I've made regret it. Moral? Absolutely not. Effective? You betcha. I have no repressed resentment against authority because it all gets channeled into lashing out at authority that bothers me in such a way the trail doesn't lead back to me (at least from an evidentiary standpoint). In other words, many times I've DONE what others fantasize about doing. This isn't some "Aren't I a badass" chest-thumping. I'm a crippled 34yr old who leaves his house once a month these days. Just wanted to be absolutely clear on the issue of repressed resentment. When I come to discuss moral/philosophical points raised by character actions here, I don't generally bring my own moral outlook...if for no other reason than people would get bored of hearing "I'd kill X or Y for screwing with me, or at least force it into a situation where it's them or me. Since that sort of statement leaves no room for discussion in its absolutism, I leave it at home so to speak. Instead, I draw my examples from "classic" Morality Vs Pragmatism arguments, and other interesting points of conflict in human nature. If you want MY unvarnished opinion, here goes: Rick should have completely let Carol slide on this and kept his mouth shut, AFTER making 110% sure she understood a recurrence of this sort of behavior gets her a bullet in the brainpan. Carol is a valuable, ALMOST *integral* part of the group in the area of providing for the children's needs, and her willingness to sacrifice and risk her life for the group to such an extent are assets greater than the lives of Karen and David. That simple for me. Carol's life is WORTH MORE than Karen and David's, and not for some lame reason like she's been a central character for a long time. She's grown into a capable, well-rounded and group-committed Survivor, possesses skills and aptitudes at the very least not exhibited by Karen and David, and most likely not in Karen and David's skillset. These people live in a world where the dead eat the living, civilization is a fading memory they can even see the death of said memory coming in the reactions of the children, and where the vast majority of other living humans see each other as assets to exploit and use up. EVENTUALLY, if the situation country or world-wide remains the same LONG ENOUGH the ONLY living left WILL be those who abandoned pre-Apocalypse morality. Why? Because it is a HINDRANCE that does nothing to improve the odds of survival in their world. Fast forward 30yrs...and Carl is going to be the closest thing resembling Rick remaining, assuming he lives that long. Even in such a morality-centric childhood and adolescence, morality is ALREADY more easily dispensed with by Carl...and there's nothing to indicate that trend won't continue as he ages. When you live in a savage environment, you become a savage or you die. To those who'd say they'd rather die than sacrifice their morality, that's exactly my point. Such people won't be around to contribute said values to whatever ends up getting rebuilt once the vast majority of Walkers rot away. Based on historical example, if all the Walkers magically vanished from TWD world tomorrow, humanity would still be in for a 500-750yr Dark Ages-style period that comes after the fall of every current major stability-giving civilization. The conquest of Persia followed by Alexander's untimely death, the fall of Rome etc etc. The trick is to bury a nugget of decency deep inside yourself...away from the part of you that makes daily decisions. Then, should you live to see the world grow less lethal and chaotic, your challenge becomes reversing the atavism you had to embrace to survive. Different challenges for different stages of the human condition, but I categorically deny the possibility of retaining civilized morality for any significant length of time in a post-apocalyptic world. Not and also see your children reach adulthood.