Origins (film) - NotLD prequel by Cameron & George Romero

[MinionZombie]

Why should reanimation be in just a few minutes though? If dying from a zombie bite can take up to three days, why can't the process of reanimation (regardless of cause of death) be just as vague? I wouldn't say reanimation would take three days, certainly not, but I'd imagine that in some cases it could happen very quickly and in other cases it could happen in a few hours. In Savini's version of Night of the Living Dead there's a cemetery zombie shambling about that has been given an autopsy and dressed for a funeral that - IIRC - got interrupted mid-way through when the corpse reanimated. So that's all I'm really saying. If dying from a zombie bite can be as vague as up to three days, then reanimation - while not as vague as three days (certainly not) - can also surely be vague in terms of the amount of time it takes to happen.

[JDP]

Why should reanimation be in just a few minutes though? If dying from a zombie bite can take up to three days, why can't the process of reanimation (regardless of cause of death) be just as vague? I wouldn't say reanimation would take three days, certainly not, but I'd imagine that in some cases it could happen very quickly and in other cases it could happen in a few hours. In Savini's version of Night of the Living Dead there's a cemetery zombie shambling about that has been given an autopsy and dressed for a funeral that - IIRC - got interrupted mid-way through when the corpse reanimated. So that's all I'm really saying. If dying from a zombie bite can be as vague as up to three days, then reanimation - while not as vague as three days (certainly not) - can also surely be vague in terms of the amount of time it takes to happen. Because the filmmaker from the very start of the series already made it very clear that the zombie reanimation takes place relatively quickly, just a few minutes. The issue of how long can a bitten person survive is only answered in the second movie. This topic is never clearly addressed in the first movie, even though Cooper's daughter has been bitten and eventually dies and becomes a zombie, but we have no detailed information regarding how long exactly did she survive the zombie bite, or if maybe she sustained other injuries during the zombie attack that turned over their car, which might have caused her to die prematurely, we just don't know because Romero was not specific regarding this topic in the first movie. In the second movie this is cleared up, though. A bitten person can survive as much as 3 days, so death from zombie bites is not a fast thing. The zombie-reanimation after death, however, is much faster, just a few minutes.

[Trin]

Does it look to you that between Logan's execution scene and the time that "Bub" accidentally discovers his corpse only "a matter of minutes" has passed? I would say that judging from all the things we are presented with in the film plenty of "matter of minutes" have already passed between these two events, more than enough for Logan to now be a member of the zombie legions. I think there was enough time to justify how Logan could've reanimated. But I'm not convinced that there was so much time that you cannot justify his lack of reanimation. That stance presumes the "matter of minutes" is a hard and fast rule and that the events really did exceed that timeframe. I do tend to believe it is filmmaker error. I'm just not convinced that's the only explanation. I was thinking to re-watch some of the Dead movies over the holiday week. Now I have an excuse! Maybe Logan had reanimated and was playing possum like a certain zombie in a clothing rack waiting for Rhodes to come by so he could pounce!

[triste realtà]

I was thinking to re-watch some of the Dead movies over the holiday week. Now I have an excuse! If you happen to watch Dawn, see if you think zombie-Roger's leg is amputated. It looks like there is only one leg under the covers. As for me, Dawn is for (around) Thanksgiving and Day is for Xmas cause that's when I first saw them.

[JDP]

I think there was enough time to justify how Logan could've reanimated. But I'm not convinced that there was so much time that you cannot justify his lack of reanimation. That stance presumes the "matter of minutes" is a hard and fast rule and that the events really did exceed that timeframe. I do tend to believe it is filmmaker error. I'm just not convinced that's the only explanation. I was thinking to re-watch some of the Dead movies over the holiday week. Now I have an excuse! Maybe Logan had reanimated and was playing possum like a certain zombie in a clothing rack waiting for Rhodes to come by so he could pounce! The "matter of minutes" is definitely a well established rule from the very start of the series. Not only do we have the word of Dr. Grimes, who has been observing the phenomenon, but we can see for ourselves how accurate are his observations (Mr. and Mrs. Cooper die in front of our very eyes and within a matter of minutes are already back from the dead), and also how sane his advice of getting rid of the dead as soon as possible before they come back as zombies within minutes. Dr. Logan should have been a zombie by the time "Bub" accidentally finds his corpse.

[Suicycho]

Watch the Logan in the freezer scene again. Pause it when it cuts to Logan. The angle of the camera doesn’t let you see anything between the point of his chin and his collarbone. From that its not that much of a stretch to say one of the bullets hits him somewhere right above his Adams apple as he is falling backwards and goes up into his brain. We can’t see the top or back of his head either so who’s to say there isn’t an exit wound as well?

[JDP]

Watch the Logan in the freezer scene again. Pause it when it cuts to Logan. The angle of the camera doesn’t let you see anything between the point of his chin and his collarbone. From that its not that much of a stretch to say one of the bullets hits him somewhere right above his Adams apple as he is falling backwards and goes up into his brain. We can’t see the top or back of his head either so who’s to say there isn’t an exit wound as well? A bullet from an M16 entering that area would have made a mess of splatter, both in front (point of entry) and behind (through the exit wound). There are no signs of any such mess anywhere near the doc's face or head, the visible area of his chest immediately below his neck/chin (quite unlike his torso further below, which is a mess of splatter), or on the uniform of the soldier's corpse (either Johnson or Miller) on which his head is resting (after so many "matter of minutes" in such a position the exit wound on the back of his head would have soaked that part of the uniform with body fluids seeping out, there would be a visible stain.)

[Publius]

A bullet from an M16 entering that area would have made a mess of splatter, both in front (point of entry) and behind (through the exit wound). There are no signs of any such mess anywhere near the doc's face or head, the visible area of his chest immediately below his neck/chin (quite unlike his torso further below, which is a mess of splatter), or on the uniform of the soldier's corpse (either Johnson or Miller) on which his head is resting (after so many "matter of minutes" in such a position the exit wound on the back of his head would have soaked that part of the uniform with body fluids seeping out, there would be a visible stain.) 5.56MM wound ballistics are notoriously unpredictable, especially at short range. That's why some argue that it's a very effective combat round while others argue that it has no "stopping power," both sides with plenty of anecdotal evidence to back up their opinions. In combat environments, under very similar circumstances, you'll hear some users report 5.56MM rounds removing entire limbs and heads, while other users report multiple hits simply poking tiny holes right through the enemy. I've also read reports of 5.56MM bullets veering off on odd trajectories within the body, like one case where someone was shot in the chest and the bullet exited the upper thigh near the groin. It's conceivable that even a torso hit could have wound up in Logan's head, especially one going up through the torso at a high angle like when he was falling back. Is this what Romero was thinking when he made the movie? Certainly not! But it is one possible explanation for Logan's failure to reanimate that is consistent with what we see on the screen.

[JDP]

.....

[JDP]

5.56MM wound ballistics are notoriously unpredictable, especially at short range. That's why some argue that it's a very effective combat round while others argue that it has no "stopping power," both sides with plenty of anecdotal evidence to back up their opinions. In combat environments, under very similar circumstances, you'll hear some users report 5.56MM rounds removing entire limbs and heads, while other users report multiple hits simply poking tiny holes right through the enemy. I've also read reports of 5.56MM bullets veering off on odd trajectories within the body, like one case where someone was shot in the chest and the bullet exited the upper thigh near the groin. It's conceivable that even a torso hit could have wound up in Logan's head, especially one going up through the torso at a high angle like when he was falling back. Is this what Romero was thinking when he made the movie? Certainly not! But it is one possible explanation for Logan's failure to reanimate that is consistent with what we see on the screen. If one of these bullets were to enter through the neck it would make quite a mess. There's a lot of blood flowing through this area of the body. A bullet going through the torso, making a 90º turn up inside the body and going all the way up the neck, through the skull and into the brain is about as likely to happen as jumping from the top of the Empire State building and somehow surviving the impact when you reach the solid ground: nil. In fact, I strongly doubt that one these bullets would have enough kinetic energy to go through so much mass and variable densities, specially in a straight line, even if it entered the torso in a manner more aligned with the brain like you are suggesting. When these types of bullets hit ballistic gel targets they penetrate some inches and then either fragment into smaller pieces that can't penetrate much further or stop travelling in a straight line due to loss of kinetic energy. This would be even more so in an actual human body with all the bones, muscles, fat, cartilage, etc. of different densities and resistance to penetration. In the case of our hypothetical bullet it would have to go not only through the whole torso, but also a few inches of vertebral body (neck area), and then also penetrate the skull. Somehow I suspect that there is just no way that this is gonna happen. The bullet would either fragment or change trajectory as it loses kinetic energy and exit through somewhere else (like the neck) before it could even reach the skull area.

[Publius]

Alright, Dr. Fackler. I'll leave you with the last word.

[JDP]

Alright, Dr. Fackler. I'll leave you with the last word. Did he fail to come back as a zombie too?

[MustangVoodoo1]

For clarity, Peter NEVER said reanimation can take up to three days. What Peter said was, he had seen half a dozen guys bit by those things and none of them lasted more than three days. From the cessation of life when the heart stops beating, DotD Remake (2004) the CDC indicates re-animation can occur in as fast as minutes up to x amount of hours. But in the remake people only reanimated from bites/scratches. Frankly, I do not care much for the runners. The slow Romero zombies of old are far more scarier because in and of themselves they seem almost harmless but when you get around a lot of them, they will corner you/etc..... But maybe the Z genre' can have a mix. Anyone regardless of manner of death (but NOT bitten) becomes a walker. Anyone killed by direct contact from the "unidentified beings" become runners - - - Updated - - - My gut feelings is that Romero never intended Logan to become a zombie regardless of circumstances or rules. It was filmed in such a way that Bub finding Logan inanimate was required for the impact of the scene on Bub and his ensuing revenge. That said, I think Logan should've become a zombie based on having no visible head wound and a seemingly long enough time to reanimate. It seems like a plot hole. But I'm not willing to say conclusively that a rule was broken. How long really passed between Logan's death (we don't know he died immediately upon hitting the floor) and Bub finding him? It couldn't have been terribly long ... events happened fast after that. Was there damage to the brain from all that gunfire ricocheting around inside his body? Did he suffer sufficient head trauma just from his head hitting the concrete floor? If I recall, Peter had time to get comfortable while sitting in the room watching Roger's corpse beneath the sheet. It looked like he's been waiting a while when Roger finally reanimated. Was that an hour or more? If so, then Logan still had plenty of time to reanimate. Maybe we should call for a movie where the reanimated Logan continues to dissect zombies in the bunker (just doing what he did in life) and eventually finds a cure. Maybe Logaz was NOT supposed to come back. What I mean, in the original Day script, everything happened on a larger scale with thousands of people seeking shelter in the underground bunker. At the end of the script, the very end someone dies but does NOT re-animate. That person was either Logan or the guy in the movie who had his arm amputated when he was bit in the corral. The one in the movie who opened the gate laid down on the lift and brought the herd into the bunker. The guy with the amputated arm was supposed to be the boyfriend of the female protagonist - - - Updated - - - If one of these bullets were to enter through the neck it would make quite a mess. There's a lot of blood flowing through this area of the body. A bullet going through the torso, making a 90º turn up inside the body and going all the way up the neck, through the skull and into the brain is about as likely to happen as jumping from the top of the Empire State building and somehow surviving the impact when you reach the solid ground: nil. In fact, I strongly doubt that one these bullets would have enough kinetic energy to go through so much mass and variable densities, specially in a straight line, even if it entered the torso in a manner more aligned with the brain like you are suggesting. When these types of bullets hit ballistic gel targets they penetrate some inches and then either fragment into smaller pieces that can't penetrate much further or stop travelling in a straight line due to loss of kinetic energy. This would be even more so in an actual human body with all the bones, muscles, fat, cartilage, etc. of different densities and resistance to penetration. In the case of our hypothetical bullet it would have to go not only through the whole torso, but also a few inches of vertebral body (neck area), and then also penetrate the skull. Somehow I suspect that there is just no way that this is gonna happen. The bullet would either fragment or change trajectory as it loses kinetic energy and exit through somewhere else (like the neck) before it could even reach the skull area. The 5.56 NATO ball ammunition has a tendency (I am a disabled veteran medically retired from the Army) to "ice pick" and thus cause little damage (if the round does NOT strike bone) If a round does hit bone it can tumble and go almost anywhere within reason. I did not witness the following but I have heard multiple stories of similar stuff happening like someone taking a hit in the leg (knee) and the round exiting through the abdomen. Granted this happened to our guys and thus were probably 30MM 7.62 rounds from an AK47. Our guys also got hit from 5.45 ammo from AK74's. These 74's were found a lot on foreign fighters and not so much Iraqi or Taliban insurgents. Anyway, I have heard many stories on Haji's taking multiple hits from M4 (5.56 NATO ball ammo) and keep on coming. This is from the ice picking. This happens with very skinny insurgents (seriously no joke) the rounds would pass through doing little damage. Additionally many of the insurgents were spun on meth and that would make them look almost unstoppable. I have been in multiple firefights, yet besides 2 or 3 engagements at CQB range(where we were engaged at 100 meters or less) the lion's share of firefights we never really saw who we were shooting at, you would hear the air being cut and rounds being returned to the left and right of you, you could see the tracer fire and watch those puppies bounce and ricochet and go 1,000 feet in the air straight up. You cannot see tracer fire when it is coming directly at you. The only time I actually saw who I was shooting at was the few times mentioned above at less than 100 meters - - - Updated - - - If one of these bullets were to enter through the neck it would make quite a mess. There's a lot of blood flowing through this area of the body. A bullet going through the torso, making a 90º turn up inside the body and going all the way up the neck, through the skull and into the brain is about as likely to happen as jumping from the top of the Empire State building and somehow surviving the impact when you reach the solid ground: nil. In fact, I strongly doubt that one these bullets would have enough kinetic energy to go through so much mass and variable densities, specially in a straight line, even if it entered the torso in a manner more aligned with the brain like you are suggesting. When these types of bullets hit ballistic gel targets they penetrate some inches and then either fragment into smaller pieces that can't penetrate much further or stop travelling in a straight line due to loss of kinetic energy. This would be even more so in an actual human body with all the bones, muscles, fat, cartilage, etc. of different densities and resistance to penetration. In the case of our hypothetical bullet it would have to go not only through the whole torso, but also a few inches of vertebral body (neck area), and then also penetrate the skull. Somehow I suspect that there is just no way that this is gonna happen. The bullet would either fragment or change trajectory as it loses kinetic energy and exit through somewhere else (like the neck) before it could even reach the skull area. It could happen and has happened. However for that to happen the projectile must hit a bone. With regard to the circumstances of Dr. Logan, I am more apt to agree that this may have simply been an oversight. They do happen in the world of Romero and even a blooper here and there either never realized or just by chance. For example, in the 1978 DotD, when in the news studio when Stephen is telling the female protagonist that someone has got to survive, she interrupts him stating DAVID!! be on the roof and "don't make me come looking for you!" She then responds, "Stephen, we can't" The Camera guy tells her go ahead, the Emergency networks are taking over at midnight anyway, our responsibility is.....finished" That blooper has survived theatrical release director's release, collector's addition with no mention. Back to the original point, the 5.56 NATO ball ammo indeed has sufficient kinetic energy. In fact so much energy that if the projectile does not hit bone and the individual struck by the round is very skinny the round will simply ice pick right through, doing little damage. For these rounds to tumble and cause a cavitation, they need roughly 6 to 8 inches before this will occur. For the Haji's it can and has gone right through with ass all results

[JDP]

It could happen and has happened. However for that to happen the projectile must hit a bone. With regard to the circumstances of Dr. Logan, I am more apt to agree that this may have simply been an oversight. They do happen in the world of Romero and even a blooper here and there either never realized or just by chance. For example, in the 1978 DotD, when in the news studio when Stephen is telling the female protagonist that someone has got to survive, she interrupts him stating DAVID!! be on the roof and "don't make me come looking for you!" She then responds, "Stephen, we can't" The Camera guy tells her go ahead, the Emergency networks are taking over at midnight anyway, our responsibility is.....finished" That blooper has survived theatrical release director's release, collector's addition with no mention. Back to the original point, the 5.56 NATO ball ammo indeed has sufficient kinetic energy. In fact so much energy that if the projectile does not hit bone and the individual struck by the round is very skinny the round will simply ice pick right through, doing little damage. For these rounds to tumble and cause a cavitation, they need roughly 6 to 8 inches before this will occur. For the Haji's it can and has gone right through with ass all results It is different for the bullet to go through the thickness of a human torso than what some people here are proposing: a bullet going all the way along the length of a torso & neck and into the skull. The first one can go through it easily, as you pointed out, without hitting any bones, but the other one is virtually impossible. Going lengthwise through the torso and neck into the skull the bullet would definitely hit bone. There's just no way that that bullet will travel in a straight trajectory. Even when they hit blocks of ballistic gel (nothing in there to simulate bones, just human tissue) the bullets do not travel totally straight as they keep on losing kinetic energy.

[bd2999]

Is Romero even involved with this? I mean George Sr. From everything I have been able to find this is his son's project. I am sure that he is supportive and all but I just cannot find anything of this being official or anything like that. Given that Night is fair game for whomever, anybody can have their spin on it.