TWD 5x15 "Try" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[shootemindehead]

What's the point in anything if you're just going to be a monster? Such an action would repulse Team Rick as much as the Alexandrians. I understand the needs of Team Rick, but enacting them on the basis of grotesque violence, torture, and intimidation is not the way to go about it - all that's going to achieve is a dangerous foundation that'll inevitably crumble. If someone came into your town and took over by feeding your leader(s) to a pit full of walkers what would you think of that? Even if they all bow their heads you've not won them over in their hearts or minds, you've created an enemy that'll seek to overthrow you when you begin to relax or they get an opportune moment. If you were the one doing the barbarous act - could you ever, truly, sleep soundly - both in terms of the emotional impact of doing something so reprehensible, but also in that you'd not actually have any trust established with these people. Exactly. Plus, the next one in the pit will most likely be you.

[MinionZombie]

You're absolutely right Minion, You could never trust the other Alexandrians after taking over forcibly. Which is why as soon as you've momentarily cowed them with a show of force, you ELIMINATE THEM ALL. It isn't just a few Alexandrians who are bad people and can be culled to purify the population. NONE of the Alexandrians "get it"...they don't want to get it, but they want people who do get it to take on all the high-risk tasks, and reserve the right to judge how those people carry out said tasks. Deanna (among other Alexandrians, plus Gabriel) have already succeeded in framing the debate to their liking. Deanna renders the town uninhabitable for Team Rick, in one way or another, but she can't be eliminated without starting a pitched battle. Where are the holes in my reasoning? If Deanna's leadership renders the town uninhabitable for Team Rick (we can debate whether that's in the short or long-term) and Deanna can't be eliminated without starting a war, how is it not a three way choice and two choices aren't really viable. 1) Submit to Deanna's authority and stand by while she banishes Rick. 2) Leave with Rick as a group, ending up back at square one. 3) Eliminate Deanna and do what's necessary to take control of Alexandria in a definitive long-term manner. Morality only enters into an equation if someone is alive and in a position to force you and yours to a position of accountability to their moral code. Corpses (genuine ones, not the undead variety) I find are very easygoing and non-argumentative. Or is it solely on a moral basis that you object Minion? Eliminate them all? Including the children of Alexandria?! So not only would Rick be a mass murderer, a psychopathic torturer, but he'd also be a child killer. Once again - what's the point in surviving at all if you're going to so readily become a monster? That didn't end well for The Governor, or The Claimers, or The Termites. None of the Alexandrians "get it"? What about the builder guy (Tobin?) who went back to Deanna and actively campaigned for Abraham to take over the lead of the construction crew? The woman that Abraham saved (the name escapes me right now) also seems pretty switched on, as did the other guy who ignored Tobin and went forward (with others following) to make sure that Abraham stayed alive. Plus we don't know what they'd all think when faced with the reality of the situation - some will be sorely inept, but others will be more than capable of rising to the challenge. Eugene was sorely inept, but he rose to the challenge a couple of episodes ago. Glenn was a videogaming pizza delivery boy who has become one of the most capable and important members of Team Rick. Even Beth found her strength (even if it ended badly for her). We should also note that Deanna hasn't made up her mind yet - and she clearly didn't believe Nicholas' story. She'd also be keenly aware that if she banished Rick she'd likely lose some (maybe all) of Team Rick - and if any of them did stay, she'd have a trust problem with the remaining Team Rick members, so she's in a rather difficult position where diplomacy is the only realistic option for things to work out. If she opted to execute Rick - which, by the looks of things, is against the principles of Alexandria (they won't even tell of a wife beater) - she'd instantly create an army of enemies in the form of Team Rick - extremely capable individuals who'd easily slaughter her and any people from Alexandria who'd try and fight them off. She herself said that they need Team Rick, she admonished her own son for his arrogance - and, indeed, Aidan showed he was learning by agreeing with Glenn about checking the perimeter of the solar factory before entering. However, he was still not aware enough to notice the grenades - but then again, it's dark, it's chaotic, you're nervous, there's muzzle flash, there's noise ... he might not have heard Glenn's warning, and obviously didn't see the grenades ... it was a bad end for him as a result and he regretted the 'leave them behind' mentality before he died. Grotesque violence and torture is no way to establish a community you can rely on in this world - and if Rick acted in such a way he'd have no respect or trust from the Alexandrians (at best he'd have fear - but fear makes people capable of desperate things) - what's more I'm sure that many (or all) members of Team Rick would be horrified and lose all trust and respect for him too. His head would be on a pike sooner than he could say "Corrral!" ... or at the very least wind up with a bullet in the head. Michonne put a stop to Rick's beating of Pete - whether Pete deserved it or not in such a way is up to each individual - so already there's people on Team Rick who are willing to stand up to him ... just extrapolate that if Rick went for the 'pit of walkers and elimate them all' method. Not only is it a moral issue - it would be way more than bending the stick, it'd be flat out breaking it into several pieces and burning it - but it's also a practical issue. Plus, again, Deanna hasn't yet made any decision one way or the other - indeed she's said very little. Exactly. Plus, the next one in the pit will most likely be you. Indeed!

[Wyldwraith]

Practically speaking I don't dispute many of your points, Plus, to be fair the whole "Death by Walker-filled pit" was a bit of hyperbole that got away from me. Besides which, it'd be cumbersome to arrange in practice...so I should've left that go. If anyone was going to be eliminated by force quick bullets to the head would be far more rational and expedient. All of that is beside the point however. The preview clearly indicates Deanna is moving for Rick's banishment. Whether that meeting is where she actually tries to make it happen, or is merely working to gain the necessary support to effect his banishment was not revealed. That said, if one accepts the supposition that at least a sizable portion of Team Rick aren't going to remain in a place Rick is being thrown out of, I don't see how the whole Deanna recognizes she needs Team Rick is still a factor. Unless Deanna believes, as I speculated, that getting rid of Rick will make the other member of the group more malleable. Put more simply, I don't see how diplomacy can still be on the table when the primary position of the community's nominal leader is the exile of the man who leads the group of veteran survivors. That position is at complete cross-purposes to any diplomatic means of resolving the conflict. Also, don't you think characterizing Michonne's buffaloing of Rick as being done to stop the fight is more than a little disingenuous? The fight was over and Rick was (admittedly loudly) stating his opinion when Michonne took him down. I believe Michonne was motivated 100% by her desire to do whatever is necessary to avoid being put in a position where she'd have to choose between leaving with the group and staying in Alexandria sans Team Rick. Was Rick "brandishing" a pistol...in the loosest definition of the word yes, but nothing in his words indicated he was prepared or preparing to begin shooting. Yes, I realize that the notion of eliminating the current occupants of exceedingly rare and desirable real-estate is naturally repugnant. HOWEVER, with significant reason(s) to believe integration is no longer possible what do you do? Just accept it and go back out into the wilderness and the slow death the group was nearing when Aaron found them? At what point is it, if not right, then at least personally acceptable to deprive others to a severe if not fatal extent to ensure the continued survival of your children and friends that have become as close as family? You make the point Minion that there's no point to surviving if you're going to behave monstrously. Why is that? If a single comprehensive "monstrous" act purchases a long-term future for you and yours can't the victors put the bloodshed behind them and move on with life? I'm not suggesting that supplanting the Alexandrians should be done with an evil Gareth-like smirk and wicked joy singing in the hearts of the killers. How far do you go to ensure, as much as humanly possible that your people have a future? It's not as if the concept is something new under the sun. Elements of mankind have been wiping out other elements of mankind for prime real estate and needed resources since time immemorial. Do you think that when push comes to shove that humanity has somehow grown more noble and altruistic in the last couple centuries? I don't. Yes, of course where possible and where the risks to you and yours are at a personally acceptable level (which will of course vary from person to person) work with others and strengthen the tribe. But if it comes down to accepting a far more uncertain risk-of-horrible-death-laden future for you and yours if cooperation turns out to be unworkable or eliminating the competition for extremely scarce resources how does a man justify putting his children and family-by-choice in that greatly increased risk of death to "do the right thing" and not supplant others? In a perfect world, with perfect people cooperation is always more desirable than conflict. The one increases resources and lessens risk of death while the other depletes resources and increases risk of death. These aren't perfect people though, and they have every reason to believe that Deanna means them harm because of Aidan's death. You can't cooperate with someone who at best wants to use you and yours until you're used up, and at worst wants to put you in a situation where death is the likely outcome. Not to mention we viewers know Deanna isn't simply holding those members of Team Rick who went on the ill-fated run with Aidan responsible. Burning Carol's card and leaving the food untouched on the doorstep screams out loud that her axe to grind is with all of them.