TWD 7x01 "The Day Will Come When You Won't" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[facestabber]

That's what I'm saying: You capture Neegan at the gates, and you cut bits off him every hour until they bring you Daryl. They give you Daryl, then you go on ahead with the cutting. You don't negotiate, you demand. The Saviors would panic watching you toss fingers off Alexandria's wall. This whole "Neegan's in charge" thing is ABSURD! Yes, I get Rick buckling DURING the whole Cut Carl's Arm Off thing. But people routinely bounce back from much worse. A man whose butchered his enemies without remorse isn't...shouldn't be, so easily cowed. It should be over almost before it began. A blip of tragedy that ends with a dramatic overestimation of his ability to control others by another in a long-line of would-be Post Apocalyptic Warlords. I literally could not believe my eyes when I saw that scene with Neegan showing up at the gate. I was like "Fuck me, he just put himself within reach of people who hate him." I mean you can't have it both ways. Either A) The Saviors are devoted enough to Neegan to react punitively to someone who killed him...in which case they're devoted enough to be held at bay by the threat of his murder by the people who are tossing bits of him to the Saviors until the Saviors meet their demands...or B) The Saviors AREN'T devoted to Neegan, in which case you can simply kill him at the gate and the Saviors will shrug and go on with things. Rick and Co. fucked up by going beyond their walls without extensive recon of their target. They paid for it...they should've learned. The reason I have so much trouble with all this capitulation is its such a terrible, unrealistic position in an Apocalypse. If sentiment will cloud your judgment enough to sacrifice the many for the one, do your loved ones a mercy and shoot them all now, because your sentiment WILL lead them to a much worse end. Ironically, Daryl is the very one that'd be telling Rick as much if he wasn't in a cage. Daryl would slap Rick silly for giving in to Neegan just to save Daryl's skin. FURTHERMORE: Even obeying Neegan for now is just a slow slide until the execution of Rick and Co. Neegan's demands are all about getting others to gather tribute for him. There is only so much to be salvaged a reasonable distance to travel from Alexandria. What do you think Neegan will do when the month INEVITABLY comes that Rick and Co. can't provide a satisfactory amount of scavenged goods for Neegan and the Saviors? Neegan won't go "Hmm, I understand salvaged goods have gotten too difficult to find. I guess I'll give you and yours a pass on providing for me and mine from now on." He'll assume they're holding out on him and start killing. So obedience leads to torture and death. That only leaves fight or flight. How is this not beyond obvious? Trying to spring Daryl is a lost cause. Bolt, or grab Neegan and start making demands. Pick one and go. Edit: And if you don't like that plan as-is: How about this? Torture the infrastructure info on the Saviors out of Neegan, and then tell his loyalists to start killing their own or Neegan gets the axe. It won't fly with the Saviors, but it'll cause more discord. The absence of police and penal institutions offers so many practical ways of dealing with one's adversaries so long as you have the stomach to leave people in bloody tatters. Negan won't be by himself. I don't think his capture this early will be possible. The Saviors have the numbers and firepower to wreck Alexandria. At this point why not create the illusion to Negan that you are completely following Negans way. This was quick response as I only read first paragraph....dad duties.

[shootemindehead]

Very satisfied with the deaths although I can't help but think how good last seasons finale would have been had it ended like this. Was about to throw a strop after Abe got it but when Negan twatted Glen out of the blue I punched the air. JDM is absolutely killing it as Negan. Fantastic Before I saw the episode and at the end of the last series I would have said the same thing. but, now, I'm glad that AMC dicked us about with that S6 ending. Because the S7 opener was great.

[MinionZombie]

Before I saw the episode and at the end of the last series I would have said the same thing. but, now, I'm glad that AMC dicked us about with that S6 ending. Because the S7 opener was great. Agreed. At the time I was pissed off, but it's not like a major show hasn't done a major cliffhanger between seasons before - it's not unprecedented, we're just spoiled as viewers these days with so much instant gratification as a result of binge-viewing culture. Seeing how the structure of this first episode's story was played out it made total sense why it was broken up that way, and it did create a real event out of the premiere, which was nice to have, especially this far into the show's lifespan. About the most you could have done would to have killed Abraham in 6x16 and then killed Glenn in 7x01 ... however, that would create as many (if not more) problems than it would potentially 'solve' (if you could even argue the way it was done was truly problematic - my opinion has changed compared to six months ago when I was all pissed off, lol). If they'd done it this other way you'd sap a lot (or all) of the anticipation of the season 7 premiere, and in-turn would probably suck a bit of the gut punch of Glenn's death. It might have thrown people off the scent, but it would have also screwed around with the pacing of this episode and compromised the season opening. Considering the whole 'before Negan/after Negan' approach to this episode, doing it this way definitely makes the most sense when all is said and done.

[JDP]

Negan won't be by himself. I don't think his capture this early will be possible. The Saviors have the numbers and firepower to wreck Alexandria. At this point why not create the illusion to Negan that you are completely following Negans way. This was quick response as I only read first paragraph....dad duties. That depends on how many men Negan brings with him whenever he tries to collect his "tribute" from the people he oppresses. If he brings a whole army each time, then the capture is going to be complicated to pull since the Alexandrians are outnumbered, but if he only brings a handful of his men then it is perfectly possible for the Alexandrians to trap this guy within Alexandria. That place has basically been turned into a fortress, not easy to get in or out without guards spotting you. His men out there can scream and shout all they want, now their very own leader and whoever else is captured alongside him have guns to their heads ready to be fired. It is time to negotiate getting Daryl back or your leader and his captured henchmen bite the dust, Mr. Saviors. PS: Wyldwraith's tactic of periodically cutting pieces of the captured Saviors and tossing them out the walls might not work because the enemy still has Daryl in their power. There is no telling if this bunch of cruel thugs won't do the exact same thing to Daryl as retaliation. It is much better to negotiate a fair exchange of hostages: you give us Daryl intact, and you get your men intact too. After that happens, then the Alexandrians either move to greener pastures where Negan's mafia-style racket has not reached yet or they better get ready for a very imminent all out war with the Saviors, but at least now the Saviors won't have a hostage to keep them "in line". Now the Alexandrians can be as brutal and lethal as they want to be with their enemies.

[babomb]

If Neegan offers protection to the common folk in his territories, and delivers on it, that's a tough situation. Alexandria would definitely be seen as an external threat if they tried anything on Neegan, and we're back to the same situation as season 3 when the Gov had his people thinking the group were terrorists. There's been no indication of this as of yet though. It seems like he rules with an iron fist and there's little-to-no benefit to those he rules over.

[MinionZombie]

Plus, looking at Team Rick from The Saviours POV - Team Rick snuck into their compound and slaughtered a bunch of them, then they killed more when Carol and Maggie (?) got kidnapped, and then Carol killed some more when she ran away, and Daryl blew a bunch of them up with an RPG, and a few others got snuffed out besides ... ... so if that's not a chance to band together and say "FUDGE YOU, BUDDY!" as a group towards a common threat, I don't know what else is. Negan taking it to Team Rick in such an organised way, if anything, strengthened his position as a leader out for revenge for the murder of his own people. Their methods and such are questionable, but we have seen different types of people - most/all of them compromised one way or another, but so are 99.9% of people living in the world of TWD.

[facestabber]

That depends on how many men Negan brings with him whenever he tries to collect his "tribute" from the people he oppresses. If he brings a whole army each time, then the capture is going to be complicated to pull since the Alexandrians are outnumbered, but if he only brings a handful of his men then it is perfectly possible for the Alexandrians to trap this guy within Alexandria. That place has basically been turned into a fortress, not easy to get in or out without guards spotting you. His men out there can scream and shout all they want, now their very own leader and whoever else is captured alongside him have guns to their heads ready to be fired. It is time to negotiate getting Daryl back or your leader and his captured henchmen bite the dust, Mr. Saviors. PS: Wyldwraith's tactic of periodically cutting pieces of the captured Saviors and tossing them out the walls might not work because the enemy still has Daryl in their power. There is no telling if this bunch of cruel thugs won't do the exact same thing to Daryl as retaliation. It is much better to negotiate a fair exchange of hostages: you give us Daryl intact, and you get your men intact too. After that happens, then the Alexandrians either move to greener pastures where Negan's mafia-style racket has not reached yet or they better get ready for a very imminent all out war with the Saviors, but at least now the Saviors won't have a hostage to keep them "in line". Now the Alexandrians can be as brutal and lethal as they want to be with their enemies. I agree his numbers make the difference in action. My gut says TF backs off a bit as the weight of loss is too fresh. Let's face it folks Team Rick won't lay down for long. They will bring a fight I just think they will be more calculated and prepared this round.

[Wyldwraith]

Neegan was very clearly at the gate. Even if every Savior he has was ringing Alexandria you could draw on him and if he moves, he dies. As I said before, you can't have it both ways. Neegan is currently riding on the scare he just put into them. He's looking to reinforce that by demonstrating he can walk into their stronghold and out again with impunity. Rick is absolutely going to let him do just that because the writers are entranced with their villain. Not disputing that. Just saying that in reality a person who butchers people someone cared for doesn't survive placing himself in a position where said people can lash out at him. In essence, Neegan would half-undo his own work by showing up like that. Here's something else to consider: The more inevitable Neegan's rule seems..the more convinced people became they aren't getting out of this situation without a bloodbath, the more easily a violent solution to the problem, even one that comes with potentially horrifying consequences, would come to them. As I said before: Look at how stunned Rick was to find that stash at the building with Sorghum on the door. Alexandria was already scavenging before Rick & Co. came along. Anyone who has bothered to consider the problem would quickly realize the goods available to be scavenged in a widening radius surrounding Alexandria will be RAPIDLY depleted if they have to find enough both for themselves and to satisfy the Saviors. A rational person wouldn't allow the clock to tick down on them, knowing a mass-punitive action was coming WHEN, not if, they fail to deliver tribute. They'd be plotting their way out of the situation from jump one. I literally cringe every time I see that preview of Lincoln saying Neegan's in charge. Shit like that is why I'm following the show by plot synopsis for the immediate future. It all comes down to what people are willing to endure for the sake of one person they care about. I could see Neegan's hostage-taking being significantly restrictive and compelling if Neegan had loaded up everyone who was on their knees but Rick and sent Rick on back to mind the store with the rest of the Alexandrian civilians, but instead the writers will inflate the amount of goods available in the world to collect to allow the subjugation of Alexandria to play out for this season. It's fairly easy to see where they're going with this. Alexandria under Neegan's bootheel for Season 7, while they switch PoVs now and then to Carol/Morgan and the others in Ezekiel's domain. To me it's an uninteresting holding pattern to wait out. It's all by-fiat plot mechanics, unsupported by reason.

[Trin]

We can speculate on whether Rick should or should not have taken a shot at killing Negan in the RV, but my position remains I would've. And it has nothing to do with logic or strategy or minimizing deaths. In his position, knowing how many of them we've slaughtered, I'm scared sh*tless at being captured. I figure I'm already a dead man, and so is everyone that came with me. I have next to zero options to save myself or any of them. I'm enraged and running on anxiety, fear and adrenaline. AKA, I have a huge bias for action. And who knows what happens if Rick drives back in the RV and dumps Negan's body out onto the ground? The entire situation is up in the air at that point. The Saviors may act stunned/paralyzed, they may start shooting Team Rick and the RV, or they may start a fire-fight amongst themselves. It's just impossible to predict. I'm pretty sure Negan's final orders wouldn't matter. And I'm pretty sure that without Negan they'd not act quickly or organized. I figure that with their leader's dead body, an assault rifle pointed at them, and a reasonable bit of cover within the RV I have at least a chance of backing them down. I'm not saying it ends well. But at least my fate is in my hands and not that of a psycho.

[MinionZombie]

I'm not saying it ends well. But at least my fate is in my hands and not that of a psycho. Yours and everyone else's that you're deciding for them with such a move. A mere punch, lashed out in anger, resulted in Glenn's death. Even if The Saviours eventually were able to lead themselves, in the moment of losing their leader - who has given them shelter and supplies and community (albeit a messed up one that they've chosen to remain a part of) - they would slaughter Team Rick in knee jerk retaliation. Just one person needs to start shooting and others will join in. Hell, it could just be one single person going down the line popping off shots. If any of Team Rick tried to run they'd get gunned down as well. Killing Negan at this point in time, when you're in such a precarious position, would be foolish in the extreme in my view.

[JDP]

We can speculate on whether Rick should or should not have taken a shot at killing Negan in the RV, but my position remains I would've. And it has nothing to do with logic or strategy or minimizing deaths. In his position, knowing how many of them we've slaughtered, I'm scared sh*tless at being captured. I figure I'm already a dead man, and so is everyone that came with me. I have next to zero options to save myself or any of them. I'm enraged and running on anxiety, fear and adrenaline. AKA, I have a huge bias for action. And who knows what happens if Rick drives back in the RV and dumps Negan's body out onto the ground? The entire situation is up in the air at that point. The Saviors may act stunned/paralyzed, they may start shooting Team Rick and the RV, or they may start a fire-fight amongst themselves. It's just impossible to predict. I'm pretty sure Negan's final orders wouldn't matter. And I'm pretty sure that without Negan they'd not act quickly or organized. I figure that with their leader's dead body, an assault rifle pointed at them, and a reasonable bit of cover within the RV I have at least a chance of backing them down. I'm not saying it ends well. But at least my fate is in my hands and not that of a psycho. The most likely outcome of such a decision is that Negan's next in command henchmen would take over leadership of the group and continue their very profitable racket. Pretty much nothing would change. You and your companions would still be dead meat, because after seeing that you dispatched Negan despite the threat of killing the hostages they sure as heck are not going to give you or anyone else from your group a chance to do the same to them. You no longer would be useful to these people, you are obviously not docile enough to be "tamed" into basically being their obedient servant, so they might as well get rid of you before you cause any more trouble for them.

[shootemindehead]

Plus, looking at Team Rick from The Saviours POV - Team Rick snuck into their compound and slaughtered a bunch of them, then they killed more when Carol and Maggie (?) got kidnapped, and then Carol killed some more when she ran away, and Daryl blew a bunch of them up with an RPG, and a few others got snuffed out besides ... ... so if that's not a chance to band together and say "FUDGE YOU, BUDDY!" as a group towards a common threat, I don't know what else is. Negan taking it to Team Rick in such an organised way, if anything, strengthened his position as a leader out for revenge for the murder of his own people. Their methods and such are questionable, but we have seen different types of people - most/all of them compromised one way or another, but so are 99.9% of people living in the world of TWD. Yeah. As I said somewhere earlier, to Negan's group (or at least the neutrals therein) Rick and Co. are a bunch of murdering psychos, who sneak into compounds in the night and kill willy nilly. Negan (off camera) has probably used that exercise to the fullest as a propaganda tool and galvanised support for his dubious methods. In a situation that's presented in this particular world of the Living Dead, "us or them" would be very strong and wouldn't need that much stoking to get some pretty fiery support. We don't know the make up of Negan's group yet to any real degree. The three girls Carol and Mags encountered didn't seem to be that bad. They're just rougher around the edges by the circumstances that they're faced. There's possibly more like them where the Saviours are stationed. But, for sure, there are some real unsavory saviours knocking around too. Even so, it would be hard for anyone to see reason with Rick's group after their stunt at the outpost. Com'on Sunday! FFS!!! - - - Updated - - - We can speculate on whether Rick should or should not have taken a shot at killing Negan in the RV, but my position remains I would've. There's a 99% chance that such a move gets everyone killed. Your son, your infant daughter, your mates and all the people back in Alexandria. Sometimes, wait and see is actually the best option. Bide the time, hold out for a better opportunity for a better outcome. - - - Updated - - - The most likely outcome of such a decision is that Negan's next in command henchmen would take over leadership of the group and continue their very profitable racket. Pretty much nothing would change. That would be my take on it too. Trevor from GTA5 looks ready to step in and fill Negan's shoes quite readily. Killing Negan at that juncture simply changes heads and everyone you've been surviving with is dead.