TWD 11x07 "Promises Broken" episode discussion... **SPOILERS**

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 11x07 "Promises Broken" specifically inside this thread. If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know). Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all. Enjoy! Directed by: Sharat Raju Written by: Julia Ruchman Kind of more about setting up the next episode, probably, but still good stuff in there to enjoy - particularly in the Commonwealth story.

[shootemindehead]

While this series (11) has been, at best, alright, I think that Negan still being alive is one of the most intellectually insulting things I've seen in a TV show ever. I know they're not going down fully reformed angel route, but it's still bloody ridiculous. We're talking about a psycho who held people's faces to hot irons and who bashed the heads in of others with a barbed wire bat. Now he's on the show talking about "his people" (I am truly sick of that fucking phrase being used in the show). There would have been a bullet put in this motherfucker ages ago.

[MinionZombie]

It was interesting to see the Whisperers' tactics being utilised for a different purpose. We don't tend to see that kind of thing on this show usually. While this series (11) has been, at best, alright, I think that Negan still being alive is one of the most intellectually insulting things I've seen in a TV show ever. I know they're not going down fully reformed angel route, but it's still bloody ridiculous. We're talking about a psycho who held people's faces to hot irons and who bashed the heads in of others with a barbed wire bat. Now he's on the show talking about "his people" (I am truly sick of that fucking phrase being used in the show). There would have been a bullet put in this motherfucker ages ago. While, sure, Negan did do some pretty awful things and made quite a show of it - tipping him into villain rather than hero fighting a terrible situation (e.g. Rick and Daryl et al) - I thought many of his points were quite valid, and it's not like Team Rick didn't do some sketchy things on occasion or got very close to tipping over the edge into inescapable territory. Lines get blurry sometimes - we've even seen it with Aaron recently. The point in keeping Negan alive was to try and alter the course of their existence (they'd had years of 'just put a bullet in this motherfucker' at that point) - so it wasn't just all kill-kill-kill - and with the possibility of merging communities (i.e. The Sanctuary). It worked for a time before collapsing, but Rick was right to try and course correct. Sooner or later the killing does have to stop regardless of past deeds. I thought it was a good point about there being less stuff to fight over with fewer people. If you don't start pulling in the same direction you'll all be doomed.

[JDP]

It was interesting to see the Whisperers' tactics being utilised for a different purpose. We don't tend to see that kind of thing on this show usually. While, sure, Negan did do some pretty awful things and made quite a show of it - tipping him into villain rather than hero fighting a terrible situation (e.g. Rick and Daryl et al) - I thought many of his points were quite valid, and it's not like Team Rick didn't do some sketchy things on occasion or got very close to tipping over the edge into inescapable territory. Lines get blurry sometimes - we've even seen it with Aaron recently. But it never got that "blurry" to not be able to tell that Negan and the Saviors were really the "bad guys". There always was a clear difference between them and Rick & company. Rick & company did not go around imposing themselves on other groups as their overlords, requiring tributes and worshipping Rick as if he was some sort of "god". Negan was the despot doing such things, not Rick. Also, whenever Rick & company acted violently towards another group, it was always in self-defense and retaliation. The reason they attacked and wiped out an entire Savior base was because it was them who started the fight: they nearly killed Abraham and Sasha and were oppressing The Hilltop community, so Rick decided to wipe them out. There's no reasoning with such violent thugs. They sure were not going to stop doing what they were doing by politely asking them to stop killing people just for the heck of it and forcing other groups into giving up their possessions to them.

[MinionZombie]

Blurry on Rick's scale, you might say, not on Negan's scale (e.g. when Rick threw those Saviours to the wolves - or walkers, rather - in that roadside bar back in late Season 7, or early Season 8). There have been times when Rick's morals have slipped very close to the edge, but again, on his scale. On Negan's scale he's practically a saint most of the time, lol! I know, the problem with the 'it would be the same from the other side' argument that they have always tried to push with Negan and The Saviours was indeed that some of their methods (e.g. torture punishments, tributes, terror tactics etc) all fly in the face of Rick & Co's methods ... Gimple wasn't able to sell that intention with the methods that Negan was employing, but Kang has managed to shed more grey light on things, bridging the gap somewhat - however, indeed, that gap can never be fully bridged ever. But even still, it's not as if Negan doesn't have something of value to say, and there are moments of remorse - although even him talking honestly with Maggie revealed that he now thinks he should have just wiped them all out so he could have saved a whole hell of a lot of his own people. He will always remain someone who did villainous things for villainous reasons, crossing the line into subjugation for bettering his own clan (and perhaps some of it was down to a little too much autonomy for some of his underlings - e.g. Simon's actions at Oceanside). It's a problem of season 7 that continues to haunt the show, but I am glad that they are trying to mix as much grey area into it now, stuff they should have done then, but better now than never. The show got a little bit lost on its path in seasons 7 and 8, particularly season 7.

[Moon Knight]

Negan is a man of his word, though! He’s one of the best characters and quite entertaining!

[shootemindehead]

While, sure, Negan did do some pretty awful things and made quite a show of it - tipping him into villain rather than hero fighting a terrible situation (e.g. Rick and Daryl et al) - I thought many of his points were quite valid, and it's not like Team Rick didn't do some sketchy things on occasion or got very close to tipping over the edge into inescapable territory. Lines get blurry sometimes - we've even seen it with Aaron recently. The point in keeping Negan alive was to try and alter the course of their existence (they'd had years of 'just put a bullet in this motherfucker' at that point) - so it wasn't just all kill-kill-kill - and with the possibility of merging communities (i.e. The Sanctuary). It worked for a time before collapsing, but Rick was right to try and course correct. Sooner or later the killing does have to stop regardless of past deeds. I thought it was a good point about there being less stuff to fight over with fewer people. If you don't start pulling in the same direction you'll all be doomed. I think the point in keeping Negan alive was purely to keep audience numbers because he's about the only compelling character left, and sure, I know he was kept alive in the comic too but AFAIK he's not not "one of the gang" as he is in the show. But the point remains, this guy is an extreme danger because he's not operating on the full shilling and there's just no way that I can accept that anyone, ESPECIALLY Maggie Green would be just being ho hum about that. She even let a kid die because he turned traitor for a few minutes and didn't bat a feckin eyelid. Now she's all chatty with the guy that beat the head of her kid's father in. Not only that, he tried to KILL HER in the underground a few episodes back. Fuck that nonsense. It's just way too much of a stretch...in a show that's been stretching my patience for quite some time now, I have to say. As for "blurry lines", that cannot be applied to Negan. There's nothing blurry about the guy. He's a fruitloop that held people's faces to hot irons and used a barbed wire baseball bat to execute people. There's nothing "blurry" going on there.

[beat_truck]

I have to agree with shootem'. When Rick did anything but kill Negan when he had the chance, TWD lost what little credibility and believability that it ever had. The guy was a fuckin' monster, probably worse than any other the group had dealt with before, and should have been taken out.

[ClairePeters]

I consider him a bastard from the phrase "his people".