The Last Of Us (TV series)

[Neil]

[shootemindehead]

Joel's only in it in episode one (and most of two) purely to get a car battery. He has no commitment to Ellie personally. Tess does indeed convince Joel to continue the mission, but even still, his commitment is only to Tess at that point - out of obligation to Tess, not Ellie. Upon reading the note from Bill - the meaning of which can only truly be felt and expressed through the story we've witnessed with Bill and Frank - Joel finally commits to Ellie. She's not a chip getting bargained with with a car battery as the pot o'gold at the end of the shades-of-brown rainbow, she's not an obligation made to Tess (essentially her dying wish), but she's now properly Joel's mission in his heart as well as his head. That is the key purpose of this episode. That's the point of the whole story though. Joel's relationship with Ellie and how that evolves over time. Joel has no commitment to Ellie in the game either. But he warms up to her over the course of their journey. This idea that Bill's letter is somehow a catalyst for this doesn't wash as far as I'm concerned, because this was going to happen anyway. It wasn't even in the game and Joel stills comes to see Ellie as a surrogate daughter over the course of the game's events. Joel will grow to love Ellie whether Bill's letter exists or not. I can objectively understand and respect the point that some (including the rabidly 'anti-woke' ragetubers) have put forth about its place structurally - but I personally do not agree. Joel and Ellie both featured in the episode to top and tail it, and not just a few measily minutes either, and their inclusion is tied to the Bill and Frank tale for the above-mentioned reasons. It's arguably in Mazin's playbook to write and structure in unexpected ways - Chernobyl doesn't show you the 'inside' of the disaster until the final episode, while the first time we see the infamous event is far in the distance through a small window, or the episode that primarily focuses on three individuals in the teams who were charged with putting down any and all animals in the area. I probably would have felt better about the episode if Bill had lived and helped Joel to find a vehicle as he does in the game. But having him top himself as well just makes the whole extended flashback kinda redundant to me. We spend a significant amount of time with two secondary characters that have no real impact on the story and will never have because they're both dead. It's just a bloody weird way of doing things.

[MinionZombie]

And in this adaptation, Bill's letter - and what it means to Joel and the audience (as a result of spending some time with Bill and Frank) - is now part of the stepping stones towards Joel coming to think of Ellie as a surrogate daughter. By the sounds of it, TLOU has been quite faithful to the game, practically copying parts of it verbatim, so if it was just exactly one-for-one then that'd be a bit dull - and it's already been said that episode three is the 'biggest departure' from the game in the series, so it's hardly as if it's going to go off on some wild tangent, despite the doom-laden pre-emptives from ragetubers making random assumptions based on fuck all. I understand there's a degree of controversy with this Druckman chap relating to the writing of the original game (I think someone else was involved, but kinda got swept aside or something like that?), and I'm aware that TLOU2 proved particularly divisive. I've warmed up a little more to Ellie in the show, but I'm still not super convinced she was the right casting choice. I think some of these YouTubers are reading a little too much into her performance and ignoring certain other things (as if trying to posit that Joel is some sort of beaten down simp or something - despite clearly laying down the law to Ellie at the end of episode three! ), but at the same time there are wobbles with how she's been written or performed at times ... she kinda comes off as a bit of a sociopath or a psychopath at different times. That creepy scene in the basement of that store, with her cutting the forehead of that infected, just gave off serial-killer-to-be vibes.

[shootemindehead]

And in this adaptation, Bill's letter - and what it means to Joel and the audience (as a result of spending some time with Bill and Frank) - is now part of the stepping stones towards Joel coming to think of Ellie as a surrogate daughter. By the sounds of it, TLOU has been quite faithful to the game, practically copying parts of it verbatim, so if it was just exactly one-for-one then that'd be a bit dull - and it's already been said that episode three is the 'biggest departure' from the game in the series, so it's hardly as if it's going to go off on some wild tangent, despite the doom-laden pre-emptives from ragetubers making random assumptions based on fuck all. I understand there's a degree of controversy with this Druckman chap relating to the writing of the original game (I think someone else was involved, but kinda got swept aside or something like that?), and I'm aware that TLOU2 proved particularly divisive. I've warmed up a little more to Ellie in the show, but I'm still not super convinced she was the right casting choice. I think some of these YouTubers are reading a little too much into her performance and ignoring certain other things (as if trying to posit that Joel is some sort of beaten down simp or something - despite clearly laying down the law to Ellie at the end of episode three! ), but at the same time there are wobbles with how she's been written or performed at times ... she kinda comes off as a bit of a sociopath or a psychopath at different times. That creepy scene in the basement of that store, with her cutting the forehead of that infected, just gave off serial-killer-to-be vibes. The letter thing is being bandied about by people that want to illustrate that this episode is somehow essential to the story. When the reality is that Joel and Ellie's relationship was going to play out like it does in the game anyway. When the 9 episodes are done, you could probably be able to skip episode 3 and miss nothing really. For sure the TV show been very close to the game. Whether that's a good thing or not is up to viewers to decide. And don't get me wrong, the Bill and Frank episode features a good story. It's just a separate story and one that was a significant detour away from Joel and Ellie's story as it was in the game and as it started out in the TV show. It feels like an awkward left turn to me, because it was an awkward left turn, even if it was an entertaining one. It's also going to come off as more awkward, because the next episode we're back to normal, as it were. So episode 3 is going to feel more like, hey let's take a look at what these secondary characters have done for 15 years, because I don't think we're going to be getting any more "special" flashback episodes for anyone else. Also, departures aren't the issue. Departures that make sense are fine and Bill and Frank's episode makes a certain amount of sense. It's just that it comes on the back of a whiplash break in momentum that was built up over the previous two episodes and will no have no real significance to anything that's happening afterward. As to Bella Ramsey, I think she's doing a very good job at capturing Ellie from the game. She's feisty, mouthy and petulant. But also still a child that's trying to find her place and trying to suss out what the adults are all about. I think she's doing a 14 year old girl pretty damn well. I don't see anything sociopathic or psychopathic about her at all. Also, if you played the game, you'd see there are a great number of similarities with game Ellie, aside from the looks department. The cutting the forehead was probably her just being fascinated at just what exactly these infected are. To be honest, it's probably something I might do myself. But this is her first time at being able to get close to one of these things without the risk of infection or death. So I think her cutting the skin of one of them is more to do with a morbid curiosity rather than a psychopathy. Plus, she was one step away from becoming one of them, before she found out that she was immune. So there's probably a fear and loathing mixed in there with the curiosity. Personally, I'd be wondering just how much is left of the human under all the cordyceps. If there's still some brainpower and thought left of the person that once was, then that's a truly terrifying concept.

[MinionZombie]

There's just a few things, certain looks or reactions, that can read a bit 'iffy' in regards to Ellie ... although I did like the "hehehehehe" moment from episode three, and the music chat in the car, which warmed her up a bit. It's always risky writing teen characters, as so often we either get annoying arses, or all-knowing wunderkids that adults bow down to regardless of whatever stupid shite has lolled out of their traps (see the end of Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom as an example - sure, let's leave a kid to decide whether or not we unleash these dinosaurs on an innocent population!) There's not enough well-written teen characters, looking back ... it's tricky because, yes, a lot of teenagers are stupid idiots who are annoying (I was one myself), but it's just gotta be handled very carefully and it's so easy to get it wrong. I got into Joel and Tess very easily, but it's taking time to figure out where I am with Ellie.

[shootemindehead]

There's just a few things, certain looks or reactions, that can read a bit 'iffy' in regards to Ellie ... although I did like the "hehehehehe" moment from episode three, and the music chat in the car, which warmed her up a bit. It's always risky writing teen characters, as so often we either get annoying arses, or all-knowing wunderkids that adults bow down to regardless of whatever stupid shite has lolled out of their traps (see the end of Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom as an example - sure, let's leave a kid to decide whether or not we unleash these dinosaurs on an innocent population!) There's not enough well-written teen characters, looking back ... it's tricky because, yes, a lot of teenagers are stupid idiots who are annoying (I was one myself), but it's just gotta be handled very carefully and it's so easy to get it wrong. I got into Joel and Tess very easily, but it's taking time to figure out where I am with Ellie. It's like that when you first meet her in the game too. She's brash and a bit annoying, because she's a teenager. I spose we all think our shit smells of strawberries at that age.

[MinionZombie]

Two good episodes (4 and 5). Finding Ellie working much better now. That big scene in episode 5 was pretty schweet.

[Moon Knight]

Two good episodes (4 and 5). Finding Ellie working much better now. That big scene in episode 5 was pretty schweet. That action sequence was so good!

[MinionZombie]

That action sequence was so good! That "We The People" crowd were proper scary. Revolutions are as awful and violent and deadly as the totalitarianism/dictatorship/whatever they're overthrowing, so the show did a great job of digging into that ... and all the murky depth of it. I did chuckle when Kathleen used her logic of maybe the kid was supposed to die, and I just thought "bitch, I could say the same to you about your fucking brother". The infected that snuck into the jeep with Ellie ... creeeeeeepy! Loved all the puns/Dad jokes. It's good listening to these TLOU accompanying podcasts, too. Apparently some of Ellie's fascinated look with Joel's violent outburst at the end of episode one was to try and show Ellie being impressed with Joel's ability to protect, but also wanting to emulate that herself ... ... not sure they quite pulled off that suggestion as she did seem a bit more skewing towards 'turned-on psycho' response, haha, but good to know what the intent actually was.

[Moon Knight]

That "We The People" crowd were proper scary. Revolutions are as awful and violent and deadly as the totalitarianism/dictatorship/whatever they're overthrowing, so the show did a great job of digging into that ... and all the murky depth of it. I did chuckle when Kathleen used her logic of maybe the kid was supposed to die, and I just thought "bitch, I could say the same to you about your fucking brother". The infected that snuck into the jeep with Ellie ... creeeeeeepy! Loved all the puns/Dad jokes. It's good listening to these TLOU accompanying podcasts, too. Apparently some of Ellie's fascinated look with Joel's violent outburst at the end of episode one was to try and show Ellie being impressed with Joel's ability to protect, but also wanting to emulate that herself ... ... not sure they quite pulled off that suggestion as she did seem a bit more skewing towards 'turned-on psycho' response, haha, but good to know what the intent actually was. All great points. I really need to listen to that after show podcast, so much cool info! That kid Infected being the one to jump Kathleen was poetic, haha!

[MinionZombie]

I see some of the ragetubers have been shitting their knickers over "communist propaganda" in the latest episode. Never mind that Joel and his brother both roll their eyes at the comment mentioned in the episode by Joel's brother's wife, but that Joel also explains to Ellie a little bit later in the episode that communism never worked on a large scale. Funny how these ragetubers never had a hissy fit over The Walking Dead - where basically every community that was good was under a communist-esque shape of some sort. In those particular circumstances it works (very small scale, and in a world where you absolutely need everyone pitching in for the benefit of the entire group, and where prosperity is measured in being able to feed yourself, protect your border, and so on). It's no surprise it collapses on a large scale and just doesn't work for all sorts of reasons, but in the post-apocalypse on a small scale of course it's going to be the way it's done. In that context if you've got some useless layabout you kick them right the fuck out of the team. Then again, morons are gonna be morons. I see one of them, the one who has this irritating habit of putting on huge guffaws - either fake for lame effect, or genuine ones over something that really isn't anywhere near that funny - thought that Joel's brother's wife gave Ellie female contraception rather than what it obviously was (a 'Diva cup' ... which is a shite name). Says a lot about them, eh? Was that moment a bit forced? Maybe. We'd already had the 'tampon treasure find' in episode three, and yes, while it'd be a real practical problem still in that context, it's like okay, we've covered that, yeah? However - would a Diva Cup even survive for 20 years? Surely the material would've perished? Also, I dunno about you, but I wouldn't be keen to be inserting something that's been kicking around for two decades... I saw they were also moaning about Joel having emotions and being afraid of letting Ellie down - the entire point being that he now sees her as a surrogate daughter and, building upon his own past trauma, it's only natural that he'd be having panic attacks (another ragetuber mis-read, some thinking they're setting up a heart problem to kill him off). Numpties, carrying on like that. Chill the fuck out. Men have emotions, men have fears, fathers in particular - and then ramp all that up in the context of a fucking apocalypse, yeah? Sheesh! Anyway - still good, still enjoying it. Roll on the next three episodes.

[Osticlbreta]

What are your thoughts on the portrayal of communism in the latest episode, and do you agree with the interpretation that Joel's emotional struggles are a natural response in the context of a post-apocalyptic world?