Watchmen

[AcesandEights]

Wow, I still haven't had the time to process the whole of the film, compare it to the original material and sort my thoughts, but I had that happy after effect of seeing a great film this morning. You know, that feeling, quite like good sex, where the joy of what you experienced the night before all of a sudden comes back to you? I can say I agree with Sylver about Rorschach being one of the best realized characters to ever transfer from comic to Silver Screen and I was most happy that his fate remained true to the source material. (EDIT: Reading back, now I'm not sure you said this. I thought I read it lastnight, but I may have misread. I'll have to re-read the thread later. Hrm...) I thought it was okay. I wasn't too excited after leaving the theater, tbh. It was pretty good for an "unfilmable" story. I still place Snyder in the music video and trailer director category rather than film director. It was entertaining, but I don't really see myself seeing it many more times. I don't think it's going to sit well with people that haven't read the novel, though. I took a friend that wasn't aware of the story and he HATED it. That doesn't exactly surprise me, to be honest. Watchmen takes time to develop, isn't jam-packed with 'bam, pow, thwok' action and is pretty subtle at points. Even if someone can appreciate all of that (which is a tall order, given the current average of movie-going patience) and the viewer has the willingness to see a film about super heroes that is deeper than what they have been trained to expect, there still is that matter of individual taste. I went with 7 others and I think we hit the spectrum pretty well. Two people didn't particularly 'get it' and didn't like it too much, though they didn't dislike the film ("Where were the bad guys?"); two thought it was okay to pretty good; 1 really liked it and wished she'd had more background on the story before hand and three of us really thought it was great. Of the three of us who thought the film was great, 1 had read the the original material multiple times before (yours truly), 1 had familiarity with the original material and 1 had a rough idea of what to expect going in. I'll be back as more thoughts develop and time allows (been a busy morning at work, which is great too )

[MoonSylver]

Wow, I still haven't had the time to process the whole of the film, compare it to the original material and sort my thoughts, but I had that happy after effect of seeing a great film this morning. You know, that feeling, quite like good sex, where the joy of what you experienced the night before all of a sudden comes back to you? Sounds like your experience was not too unlike mine. I can say I agree with Sylver about Rorschach being one of the best realized characters to ever transfer from comic to Silver Screen and I was most happy that his fate remained true to the source material. Here's a question re; Rorschach:   What do you think of Nite Owl having been present when he "gets it"? I prefer the book version, where no one ever knows what happens to him, it's just him & Jon. I'm thinking the movie version was done the way it was so that Nite Owl could exact SOME kind or retribution on Veidt, that he didn't get away completely unscathed. That doesn't exactly surprise me, to be honest. Watchmen takes time to develop, isn't jam-packed with 'bam, pow, thwok' action and is pretty subtle at points. Even if someone can appreciate all of that (which is a tall order, given the current average of movie-going patience) and the viewer has the willingness to see a film about super heroes that is deeper than what they have been trained to expect, there still is that matter of individual taste. Word. I was quite interested in my wife's reaction. That's why I've been trying to spread the word to anyone interested in seeing this movie: if you go in expecting X-Men, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Iron Man, etc, you most likely will be disappointed. I went with 7 others and I think we hit the spectrum pretty well. Two people didn't particularly 'get it' and didn't like it too much, though they didn't dislike the film ("Where were the bad guys?"); two thought it was okay to pretty good; 1 really liked it and wished she'd had more background on the story before hand and three of us really thought it was great. Of the three of us who thought the film was great, 1 had read the the original material multiple times before (yours truly), 1 had familiarity with the original material and 1 had a rough idea of what to expect going in. That's about the spread I'm expecting. I'll be back as more thoughts develop and time allows (been a busy morning at work, which is great too ) Look forward to it.

[AcesandEights]

Here's a question re; Rorschach:   What do you think of Nite Owl having been present when he "gets it"? I prefer the book version, where no one ever knows what happens to him, it's just him & Jon. I'm thinking the movie version was done the way it was so that Nite Owl could exact SOME kind or retribution on Veidt, that he didn't get away completely unscathed. Yeah, that change definitely stood out to me, and I think you're on the money with what the intent was, however it seemed to have a slightly different effect.   First, I should say that I thought the actual death scene was great and Daniel/Nite Owl's reaction was well done, however...In a way, I felt it served to more heavily implicate Nite Owl and also made his gesture of anger towards Veidt seem pretty impotent, but that's a minor foible for me and perhaps not poorly thought out. I did always like that Rorschach left, pretty much knowing what would go down and faced up Dr. Manhattan alone, not budging an inch because he felt he had no choice but to be true to his beliefs. I was just so stoked that his fate was largely kept intact in that sense. I was quite interested in my wife's reaction. That's why I've been trying to spread the word to anyone interested in seeing this movie: if you go in expecting X-Men, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Iron Man, etc, you most likely will be disappointed. Yup, I totally agree about fan expectations being an issue. My girlfriend had no clue what to expect and afterward just wished she had known more about the film going in. She was pleasantly surprised and into the film the whole way through so, as an old school comics nerd from way back, I was somehow--in some inexplicable manner of haughty geekitude--proud of her

[Tricky]

Heres a question - how does Rorschach's mask do that fancy thing where it keeps changing when he actually doesnt have any superpowers?or is it one of those things that you just accept as the norm in the films world?

[AcesandEights]

Heres a question - how does Rorschach's mask do that fancy thing where it keeps changing when he actually doesnt have any superpowers?or is it one of those things that you just accept as the norm in the films world? The cloth has a reactive dye in it that constantly changes shapes, iirc. It's just a special cloth he had picked up along his adventures. I have to, and plan to, re-read the Watchmen as soon as my GF gives me my copy back. Holy crap, I've forgotten a lot of the details. From his Wikipedia entry: After leaving school, Kovacs took a job as an unskilled tailor. The prospect of handling women's clothing caused him discomfort, and he later commented that the job was "bearable but unpleasant". A few weeks before her murder in front of an apartment, Kitty Genovese ordered a dress from him, made of a fabric created by Doctor Manhattan that used two pressure and heat-sensitive liquids suspended between a layer of latex to create black-on-white shifting color patterns, "always changing, never mixing into grey". When the dress was completed, Genovese was unsatisfied with the design, and she refused to pay for it. Kovacs took it home for himself, fascinated with the fabric. Upon reading of Kitty's murder in the newspaper, he became disgusted with the amount of crime in New York City and, creating a mask from her dress, became the vigilante Rorschach.

[Tricky]

Ahh right i get it now!cheers for that ace!

[MoonSylver]

After leaving school, Kovacs took a job as an unskilled tailor. The prospect of handling women's clothing caused him discomfort, and he later commented that the job was "bearable but unpleasant". A few weeks before her murder in front of an apartment, Kitty Genovese ordered a dress from him, made of a fabric created by Doctor Manhattan that used two pressure and heat-sensitive liquids suspended between a layer of latex to create black-on-white shifting color patterns, "always changing, never mixing into grey". When the dress was completed, Genovese was unsatisfied with the design, and she refused to pay for it. Kovacs took it home for himself, fascinated with the fabric. Upon reading of Kitty's murder in the newspaper, he became disgusted with the amount of crime in New York City and, creating a mask from her dress, became the vigilante Rorschach. Bingo. Only thing that I would add is that Kovacs taught himself how to cut & shape the material using heated implements (in case you were wondering how we has able to work with the special material) I'm in the middle of a re-read myself. Yeah, that change definitely stood out to me, and I think you're on the money with what the intent was, however it seemed to have a slightly different effect.   First, I should say that I thought the actual death scene was great and Daniel/Nite Owl's reaction was well done, however...In a way, I felt it served to more heavily implicate Nite Owl and also made his gesture of anger towards Veidt seem pretty impotent, but that's a minor foible for me and perhaps not poorly thought out. I did always like that Rorschach left, pretty much knowing what would go down and faced up Dr. Manhattan alone, not budging an inch because he felt he had no choice but to be true to his beliefs. I was just so stoked that his fate was largely kept intact in that sense.   Don't know if it IMPLICATES Nite Owl...nothing really he could have done about it...but yeah, impotent is a good choice of words (no pun intended!). That's part of the reason why (IMO0 Adrian let him beat the crap out of him...let the poor guy vent...let him have something. Could have dismantled him & didn't lift a finger. One of the few changes that I thought was a nice touch.

[AcesandEights]

Steroid pumped hollywood Watchmen! To be fair, with regards to one aspect, I was very impressed that, apparently, Wilson put on 25 lbs. of fat after shooting his earlier flashback scenes specifically to portray the softer, retired Nite Owl (II). Bingo. Only thing that I would add is that Kovacs taught himself how to cut & shape the material using heated implements (in case you were wondering how we has able to work with the special material) Ah, dude. 'Heated implements', I think that's almost the exact terminology they use in the original material...you are re-reading...and I'm jealous. I had my GF and one of my best friends ask to borrow my copy, so I think I might buy one tomorrow, re-read it and then give it to my friend. Hell, that's a gift that keeps on giving.   Don't know if it IMPLICATES Nite Owl...nothing really he could have done about it...but yeah, impotent is a good choice of words (no pun intended!). That's part of the reason why (IMO0 Adrian let him beat the crap out of him...let the poor guy vent...let him have something. Could have dismantled him & didn't lift a finger. One of the few changes that I thought was a nice touch. Yes, to be sure, when I said it implicates him, I was trying to express that he's wholly privy to, and in some respects dirtier for it--the fact that he knows...   Not only did Ozymandias orchestrate a hoax killing millions of people (to save billions), but--on a more personal note--Rorscach, his old partner, was undeniably murdered to cover it up before his very eyes. And I just thought witnessing it and still taking part in a conspiracy-by-silence made Nite Owl a bit dirtier than he was at the end of the original material. I'm trying to remember how it left off after Rorschach left and the subsequent panels finishing off the story after Nite Owl and Silk Spectre return, but I think that would have been something suspected but not known for certain. I dunno. Damn, I want my copy back from my GF

[clanglee]

Saw it over the weekend. . loved it. Only a very few issues with it. One was indeed the music choices. Some of the music pics just took me out of a scene too much. Second was the end change. With the original event (the squid) there was good traceable evidence that Rorcharch was digging up and writing down (missing people, secret island, close Veidt connections) With the possiblility of R's journal getting out, it stood to bring the whole thing down. In the movie,   the evidence is much less clear and blame is placed on Doc Manhattan, so even if the event is uncovered, Doc Manhattan just has to come back and claim responsiblity. . end of story, no more arguement. It just wasn't airtight enough for me. Having said all that. I loved the movie, and Haley was WONDERFUL as big R!!!!!!! Oh and I went to see the movie with my wife, parents and uncle. Parents really liked it and my dad now wants to read the GN, wife liked it alright, Uncle who DIDN"T LIKE THE GN, loved the movie. go figure

[MoonSylver]

Ah, dude. 'Heated implements', I think that's almost the exact terminology they use in the original material...you are re-reading...and I'm jealous. Hehe...that was always a term that stuck in my mind for some reason...a lot of the "Rorshcah-isms" really stuck w/ me...Almost added that Kovacks felt compelled to cut the dress "until it didn't look like a woman anymore"...another telling comment on his psyche.   I'm trying to remember how it left off after Rorschach left and the subsequent panels finishing off the story after Nite Owl and Silk Spectre return, but I think that would have been something suspected but not known for certain. I dunno.   Veidt casually mentions "he'll probably never make it back to civilization". Everyone is left with the implication that Rorschach, on foot, with no cold weather gear, in the middle of Antarctica, most likely perished. A reasonable enough assumption. I kinda wonder, did Adrian know that Jon would never allow this? I know if there's ONE guy I wouldn't feel comfortable not knowing for sure was 100% out of the picture it's Rorschach! The guy is a survivor. I always figured that Dan is thinking maybe, just MAYBE, he's still out there...somewhere...

[AcesandEights]

Just an aside on Veidt's accent/no accent... I wasn't too thrilled with Veidt either, he seemed to go in and out of having an accent mid sentance. It was very distracting. It was reportedly intentional, for good or ill.   While the inclusion of such a background didn't change the story at all, it injected certain nuances into Goode's performance that meshed with the idea that Veidt is not all that he seems. "His public persona is incredibly American. He has the accent too, so everyone thinks they know Adrian," Goode points out. There is a subtle change in his voice, however, when he is speaking in private, particularly with old comrads-in-arms like Dan Dreiberg. "it's a mix of German and American, and that's who he really is," says Goode. "It was funny because we shot without thinking about doing that part of the scene first, the Lee Iacocca scene. It was only after that, because it was six month job, it was only after we shot that that I came back to Zack and we both talked about the possibility of giving him that other sort of public persona and private persona," explained Goode. "I just came up with the idea and dealt with it. I just did it. I hope it worked." I really didn't have a problem with the guy, but--admittedly--I really have to see the film again. Must...see it...on the big screen...again.

[MoonSylver]

Just an aside on Veidt's accent/no accent... It was reportedly intentional, for good or ill. I really didn't have a problem with the guy, but--admittedly--I really have to see the film again. Must...see it...on the big screen...again. Interesting on the accent. My biggest gripe w/ the casting choice is that Veidt is supposed to be the closest thing to a superhuman out side of Jon...the pinnacle of human perfection. The actor playing him was honestly a little scrawny for the part...everyone else was cast PERFECTLY & he just wasn't As for the performance...   he came across too "villain-y" when revealing the plan (IMO). In the GN he seemed a bit sad...wistful...he's the father patiently reasoning with the children who just...don't...understand (I see this as how he sees himself). I didn't get that 100% in the movie...he just seems kinda glassy-eyed, distant Not a deal breaker, just a minor complaint.

[AcesandEights]

Hey Clang. Glad you liked the film, too =) I was thinking about what you said: Saw it over the weekend. . loved it. Only a very few issues with it...   Second was the end change. With the original event (the squid) there was good traceable evidence that Rorcharch was digging up and writing down (missing people, secret island, close Veidt connections) With the possibility of R's journal getting out, it stood to bring the whole thing down. In the movie, the evidence is much less clear and blame is placed on Doc Manhattan, so even if the event is uncovered, Doc Manhattan just has to come back and claim responsibility. . end of story, no more argument. It just wasn't airtight enough for me. I think it's important to remember that some things do have to be adjusted in the transition from comic to film. Now, the faith with which the film has preserved a lot of the original material and the world of the Watchmen is really incredible, but think about it in this respect...The original 12 issue run of the Watchmen was a story that was meant to unfold over the course of a year of reading and was supposed to have been read 4 or 5 times (Moore's own words) to pick up on all the details. Now, to lend some perspective, I was able to pick up the last three issues of The Walking Dead this weekend and read through them in one sitting in about 15 minutes (not including the letter columns, which I was not in the mood for at the time), and I wasn't rushing through them. Now, I don't know how long it took me the first time I read the first three issues of the Watchmen (in the collected graphic novel)--it was a long time ago, to be sure--but that sucker was so textually, texturally and thematically dense that I don't think I could have done an issue in anything close to 15 minutes and feel like I had scratched the surface. These suckers have a lot to them. What's my long winded, overblown point here? Well, keeping the above in mind, the pacing the original worked with, I don't mind that some of the complexities of the 'plot' (as opposed to the movie's plot, though some may view it as one and the same) got trimmed down. I do think you're right, Clang, in that a little bit more in this area would have gone a lonnnng way, but the actual ending, sans tentacle, I preferred. I'll explain in spoiler tags:   To me, it seems much more elegant and believable (from a meta, as well as a practical storytelling perspective) to work within the context of what you already have on hand. Aliens? Sure, more believable in a world in which superhumans dwell, but why not raise up something to fear where the seeds have already been sewn, something people know to exist. After all, the House Committee for Unamerican Affairs (? is that right? HUAC) taught the people that they couldn't trust some of their own neighbors, friends, co-workers, idols and heroes and the Keene Act--motivated by at least some popular radical 70s support (read: rioting unrest, 'Who watches the watchmen?' etc.)--went even further in that direction. Also, remember that Veidt had planned to have either Dr. Manhattan out of the picture due to the cancer gambit (a convenient guilt trip, which also helped to expose him as a danger to human health) and a dead Silk Spectre (who was on the Comedian's 'list')--two things that would have furthered the likelihood of Dr. M's estrangement) or dead (disassembled). A bit of a stretch? I don't know, really. So, in summation, I agree with you, Clang. There was a lot more to Veidt's plot in the original material and this is a place where a little camera time and development could have paid huge dividends, however they had to make major cuts just to preserve what they did and what they were able to cram on the screen and into the movie's plot. Additionally, I'm happy with the way the plot did turn out and happy with the inclusion of Dr. Manhattan as the supposed cause, as opposed to some random alien, tentacular menace. Of course, some of my thoughts might have gone down a bit choppily, as I have been typing this off and on at work over the course of the morning. Having said all that. I loved the movie, and Haley was WONDERFUL as big R!!!!!!! Oh and I went to see the movie with my wife, parents and uncle. Parents really liked it and my dad now wants to read the GN, wife liked it alright, Uncle who DIDN"T LIKE THE GN, loved the movie. go figure Nice! Nothing like an outing to the movies that everyone enjoys Also, with regards to the music, I will work up a whole other post, as I have been mulling some things over in that regard.

[clanglee]

I hear ya Aces. And I agree with you. It is VERY difficult to cram the stuff in that movie that was already in there, much less more. They did a great job. My point in reference to the destruction plot is that it takes away from Rorsharch's stand. Pointing at the Doc takes away from the whole "the world could go back to where it was before" thing. It makes R's refusal to help cover up kinda obsolete, because all the Doc has to do is threaten to do it again, and then even if it's proven he didn't do it before. . well. . he could STILL do it again. It's minor. . but I just really liked the open endedness of the GN, and while the movie tried to portray that. . it missed because of this one glaring problem. ahh well. . the rest of the movie rocked!!

[MoonSylver]

Here's Watchmen...Saturday morning cartoon style (so wrong on so many levels!)