TWD 2x07 "Pretty Much Dead Already" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Kaos]

Yeeeah, now that's what's up! Loved that ending and Shane going off like that was just awesome. I'm gonna assume Hershel knew about the little girl and didn't want to say anything. He might have known, but Kirkman said that knowledge may have actually died with Otis since he was the regular wrangler.

[ProfessorChaos]

blown away by the fact that sophia died and became a walker. i'm not up the current issue of the comics, but i'm somewhere in the 7th year and she's still around. i really was expecting things to escalate between rick and shane to the point of no return (probably not alone in this), but the way that things ended was even better. i'm standing by my initial impression of this show that i got from the pilot, and still say it's the hands-down the best living-dead related thing on film in the last twenty-five years or so, sorry george. up to this point, i'm delighted by this season. it's had a few dull moments, but you can't really judge these shows or form solid opinions by the singular episodes in my opinion, but rather look at the season as a whole. so far, it's been great, and looks like it's only gonna get better.

[Legion2213]

That my friends, was the best dose of delayed gratification I've had in a long time, this second series has been pretty high on drama and story telling, but light on good old fashioned zombie porn...I have no shame in telling you all that I became sexually aroused when Shane bust that barn lock and unleashed those walkers into the face of hot leaden death! Our heroes: *pop pop pop, crack, pop, kepow, pop pop pop* Me: *Yes, yes, yeeeesssssss, unghhhh ahhhhhhh!* Sophia scene made me sad though, sort of felt it was coming, but still, it was very well done. All that said, I think the group have damaged themselves bigtime (emotionally). Still trying to get my head around the awesome of this as I type. Get the fuck in TWD!!!

[bassman]

Everyone's reaction to Sophia was heartbreaking. Good to see Rick step up and do what needed to be done, though. Great episode even if it was spoiled a few weeks back. Now the wait for February....

[AcesandEights]

maybe only Otis knew exactly who else was in the barn besides the orginal family members. Immediately after realizing Sophia was going to amble out of the barn (during that pause they gave before the 'reveal', I knew someone would question why no one at the farm mentioned anything and immediately assumed the same thing, given what we know about how they grabbed some of the random zombies due to last night's episode. -- -------- Post added at 09:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 AM ---------- Consider the timeline. If Otis was the one who had manhandled the previous Walkers into the barn, and if Otis was also free to be deer hunting while Rick and Co. were searching for Sophia, that means that Otis and Herschel (at a MINIMUM) knew Otis had put a recently-dead and now undead little girl in the barn prior to his ill-fated deer hunting expedition. It certainly doesn't mean Hershel had to know such a thing, actually. I'm not saying he didn't know, but he didn't have to (certainly makes less sense if he knew) and to say he definitely knew such a thing is going out of the way to assume extraordinary measures, as opposed to assuming what makes sense given the situation. -- -------- Post added at 09:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 AM ---------- Everyone's reaction to Sophia was heartbreaking. Good to see Rick step up and do what needed to be done, though. Yup, it was nice to see Rick step up and do something grisly that had to actually be done, as opposed to Shane's typical do something grisly just because he can't think his way out of a paper bag. -- -------- Post added at 09:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 AM ---------- I love the irony of Rick having to shoot Sophia. Not because he was feeling responsible for her impending doom , but because it shows Hershel that after slaughtering his family and friends, he also is willing to kill his own people when needing to do so. Wow, excellent point! -- -------- Post added at 09:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 AM ---------- I have no shame in telling you all that I became sexually aroused when Shane bust that barn lock and unleashed those walkers into the face of hot leaden death! I wish you'd had the shame

[darth los]

In order to have any credibility with herschel and his people Rick HAD to step up and do it. The whole scene was a lesson to those who see the walkers as just random monsters that need to be put down without hesitation (rightly or wrongly). It was a zombie nerdgasm when shane opened the barn and started putting down herschel's family, friends and nieghbors but even the most hardcore of us had to gasp and hesitate when it was "one of our own", a kid no less. In that very instant it became clear how herschel viewed them and, while i believe wrongly, he did what he did. Kinda blows a hole in the whole Cherokee rose theory, huh darryl? Furthermore, just as the "bad guy" Harry cooper ultimately ended up being right, shane's philosophy is looking more right by the minute if not his methods. If he hadn't done what he did Sophia's mom never would have gotten closure on the matter and who knows what further damage might have been done to the group. Looking for sophia got carl shot, led to a scenario where otis was killed and damn near got darryl killed as well. Rick's "moral" code is looking less appealing by the second in this new world. You notice that when shane drew a line in the sand eveyone took a gun and followed his lead right? And someone really needs to slap the shit out of dale. I mean this has to be the third time he took it upon himself to make a big decision either for the group or another individual in it that really wasn't his call. 1)Right or wrong andrea dying or not at the cdc was her decision to make not his. 2) Him lying about the Rv not being ready to roll out in order to Stave off the "needs of the many versus the needs of the few argument" was another dick move. Again, a grave decision that should have been voted on by everyone he took upon himself to make because he has this holier than thou shit going on for some reason and knows better than everyone else. We don't know what would have happened had they left after a day of searching but we do know that because they stayed carl got shot, otis was murdered and they almost lost their best "survivor" in darryl. Not up to him. 3) And hiding the guns!?! WTF man!?! I see his reasoning there but again, NOT HIS CALL. Yes the guns will probably lead to a few human born confrontaions amongst themselves but they are also the method to which they will survive an attack by a large number of walkers and feel confident to go on searches for little girls who are already dead in zombie infested suburbs and come out of it okay. There are a couple of other instances but these are the three that stick out to me the most.

[AcesandEights]

Great episode even if it was spoiled a few weeks back. Wow, how did I miss that? I must have resisted reading a linked article or something. Was it an article or from somewhere else, Bass?

[Legion2213]

To be honest, I think Rick was just taking responsibility for what had to be done, I still think the way he put the bicycle zombie down one of the best moments of the series, Shane sees them as meat, Rick still sees them as humans or ex-humans, he showed the same sort of care in the "guts" episode when he decided to find out just who the person was who they were dismembering. It is his way, no use surviving if you become less than human in doing so. These traits are part of the reason I'd follow him to Hell in this kind of situation rather than turn my back on Shane for more than a few seconds...Shane might be survivor, but he would end up like Rhodes if he was in charge. Rick's bad calls are usually the result of his humanity and decency. Edit: Los, you are bang right about Dale hiding the groups weapons...Jesus, what if the walkers had busted out of the barn or another herd had come rumbling down into the fields...bad bad call on his part, noble reasons for doing it or not.

[bassman]

Wow, how did I miss that? I must have resisted reading a linked article or something. Was it an article or from somewhere else, Bass? Someone here posted a link to a picture of Sophia exiting the barn. I have no idea how they got that picture, but it's now confirmed as legit.

[Wyldwraith]

I'll rephrase then, SOMEONE, besides Otis had to have been involved with putting Undead-Sophia in the barn. Why? How do you maneuver a catch-pole, with a zombie snapping and lunging at you on the end of it (Which almost got the male teen of Herschel's people bitten multiple times just maneuvering the Walkers with the poles as they pulled them out of the bog) and then get it into the barn ALONE? It didn't HAVE to be Herschel specifically who knew and/or helped Otis, but the circumstancial (admittedly) evidence is fairly conclusive. 1) Herschel knew exactly where the catch-poles were, and took Rick right to them after the teen came rushing in to tell Herschel "It" happened again. 2) Herschel has wanted to be notified or have complete say about everything that happens on his farm. (Not arguing the right or wrong of this behavior here, just pointing it out) 3) Herschel was comfortable enough with the Zombie Barn to immediately and repeatedly turn down sincere offers to help reinforce/secure said barn. 4) One of Herschel's people was breaking the chicken's LEGS in what (at least to me) seemed like a fairly practiced move. Point two here is that we know Herschel's people were feeding the barn-zombies from the second-story loft that Glenn saw the Walkers from. (Incidentally, I find it difficult to believe one could go about such a task, that involves looking down into the barn if for no other reason than you're coming near the edge of the loft with live, frantically squirming broken-legged chickens in a bag and you don't want to FALL IN.) However, I'm going to stick with my key point. I simply don't believe a Walker could be put in that barn by one man alone, unless first others were willing to risk being bitten to help pin it to the ground and hogtie it or something, but we know they didnt do that or the zombies wouldn't be shambling around in there. Plus that was a woman feeding the Walkers, and I find it difficult to believe that even catching a glimpse of an undead little girl that wasn't there the last time she tossed the Walkers chickens wouldn't have been something that stuck with her. Other things are of course POSSIBLE, but IMO it is a vanishingly small chance that Otis was moving the Walkers into the barn alone. Especially once they already had some in there, and we know that Herschel's family members and neighbors were Walkers before the group showed up, because as Herschel said, Otis did the Walker-moving and Otis was d.e.a.d.

[kidgloves]

Well.... I managed to watch this live last night before finally falling into bed. Bit of an anticlimax for me as i called it weeks ago before it leaked online and my reasoning was just what you guys are talking about. After shooting Herschels zombies, something had to happen to balance it out and that had to be someone in the group shooting one of their own which could only be Sophia. The whole segment shooting the zombies and Sophia was still a very very strong moment though. You can't beat a mass execution of walkers for dramatic purposes and it was done superbly by Michelle MacLaren. The next episode is called "Nebraska". Hmmm interesting.

[MinionZombie]

Someone here posted a link to a picture of Sophia exiting the barn. I have no idea how they got that picture, but it's now confirmed as legit. Soooooooo glad I didn't see that picture, wherever it was posted! Anyway - as I said, what with this being the mid-season finale, I didn't want to wait and risk having it spoiled. I just got done watching it and yep - another spiffing episode. Some thoughts: 1) There has been a growing tendency lately to delay gratification right till the last part of the episode - at times this can work, but it is a little bit annoying. I felt that the pace was a bit slow, however they did end the episode brilliantly which made up for the slow pace ... it doesn't have to be guns blazing, but a little nip and tuck here or a little tweak there to improve the pacing at the odd moment wouldn't go amiss. 2) Sophia being a zombie was certainly a possibility - but I think many of us didn't quite think that it could happen - but it was certainly handled with real care. I think, like many, you kind guessed it was going to happen before it happened - I think that was down to the pacing of the scene and the choice of shots used. It could have been hidden just a sinch better, and perhaps if the leads throughout the season had been a little bit warmer then it might have made it a bigger shock ... but nevertheless, that's just nitty-nit-picking - I thought the scene was great. The reactions were wonderful. 3) I think it was a wise choice to have Rick be the one to shoot Sophia. Not only does it echo the little girl in 1x01, but it's also numerous other things - it shows to Herschel, as others have said, that Rick is willing to put down one of his own when necessary, but more importantly, there's the guilt factor. Rick feels like he failed Sophia, and now he discovers she has become a zombie, so it's now his responsibility to end her undead life. 4) Shane going mental was awesome - it's been like a pressure cooker with him and here we got the blow-out - I genuinely felt tense in the scene in the swamp between him and Dale (well acted by both gents), and him shooting that zombie to prove to Herschel that they're not sick and in-need of a cure, but they're flat out dead and dangerous was superb. It was a huge scene for a lot of characters - Herschel's belief system gets totally destroyed, Carol's (and the group's) worst fears are confirmed with Sophia, Rick is confronted by a mistake that he couldn't have not made in an impossible situation, Maggie full-on realises (with the help of the drug store attack) that these are indeed walkers in need of putting down, Carl's lost his little friend, Daryl's failed to do what he was determined to do ... blimey - a BIG scene indeed. 5) Seeing Sophia as a zombie was really quite sad, as many have already said ... a beautifully played out scene ... gotta say it again. Now - what does this all hold for the future? * Will Herschel demand everyone leave? If so, will Maggie go with Glenn, and will they try to populate that housing estate we saw in 2x06? * Rick/Shane/Lori - that whole situation. * Shane ... 'nuff said. * I can see a relationship brewing between Daryl and Carol - will this develop in the next batch of episodes? Yes - another spiffing episode.

[Thorn]

As to someone knowing about it, sadly no one did. Kirkman said on the talking dead no one knew. Otis put her in the barn and died before anyone started asking hard questions about Sophia. He explained that specifically and to derail the comments on the internet where people were attacking Herschel for knowing all along. I get that it makes sense to us he would have needed help but who knows how he did it. Or it might be one of those moments we have to just suspend disbelief. Shane going crazy is a thing to behold, he is an amazing actor one who I think has grown a lot at his craft over the 2 seasons we have been watching him. Amazing job, and the scene of course appealed to any zombie fan as far as action goes, the FX, make up, and whole scene just reeked of awesome. That certainly does not mean I agree with the methodology, or motivation. I do agree it was a danger to the people on the farm greater than ANYONE outside the group we have been following understands but I of course would have found another way to make my point that was much less "I am going to crap all over your believes and assumptions and shock you into reality or even if you don't get it I don't care I am just doing what I want on your property so f' off". The approach doesn't wash with me. It was an amazing episode and I wish I did not read the spoiler that gave away the reveal ending, while I doubted how legit it was when they had the pause and the sounds leading up to her exiting the barn... I knew. How could you not? So lesson learned there. Hiding the guns was a major mistake and I agree with those painting it as Dale putting everyone on the farm in danger, it was something he did on his own without consulting the group outside of leadership. No one has that right, you can have the best motivations if you fail to act on them properly well... it doesn't mean much. Loved the episode not looking forward to the break.

[kidgloves]

Only thing that worries me about the 2nd half after watching the "coming this season" bit at the end of the show is that it turns from "the hunt for Sophia" to "the hunt for Herschel". Please don't let it be true

[Wyldwraith]

My focus is on what was revealed of the beginning of the first new episode of February in the sneak peek during Hell On Wheels (didn't watch the show, but I left the TV on AMC to catch the Walking Dead sneak peek that was much more "meaty" than the "Next time on TWD" regular preview at the end of mid-season finale). We see the pile of corpses still on the ground in front of the barn, Maggie is helping a shaky Herschel back up the steps into the farmhouse as Shane strides forward and vehemently accuses Herschel and his people of knowing about Sophia. Herschel responds angrily with the statement "Otis handled all that. I didn't know anything about that"...which Shane replies to with "That's bullshit. What, you think I'm stupid? You expect me to believe that?" To which a distraught and angry Herschel retorts "I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU BELIEVE!" All the while, the rest of the group has kept pace and is right in a cluster even with Shane at the bottom of the farmhouse steps, but none of them say anything. Then it flashes to Rick and Shane heatedly arguing, before finishing with a scene that was obviously a bit later of all of them (including Shane) digging graves in front of the barn. Whatever you think about that scene, it tells us they're picking up chronologically seconds after the end of the mid-season finale and going forward from there. I still maintain that whatever the truth about who knew what, and when, about undead-Sophia being in the barn...there's just NO WAY that Otis did all the moving of Walkers into the barn all by himself. Especially when we KNOW they weren't all put in at the same time. Realistically, Hell, remotely POSSIBLY, how does ONE MAN move multiple Walkers into a structure already containing other Walkers...and without some complex effort like tying them up and tossing them in. (Which we know wasn't done because they're all shambling freely around inside.) Maybe Otis did the bulk of the work, and maybe even got most of the Walkers in there alone after they died but before they reanimated, but we KNOW that there have been AT LEAST TWO times that the male teen in Herschel's group has said (and was thus aware) of Walkers getting trapped in the bog as we saw during the finale. Which tells us that even if you assume Otis got Herschel's 2nd wife and stepson, plus their neighbors etc etc into the barn before they reanimated, at least one ONE other occasion (besides the one we saw Rick and Herschel dealing with) occurred where a Walker or Walkers plural (coulda been Sophia in fact) were pulled out of that bog the 2 Walkers were in. Meaning that at a bare-bones-minimum, Otis had to get at LEAST Sophia into the barn with the other Walkers already in there...and unless the teen was aware of Walker-Sophia getting stuck in the bog (which would blow a hole right there in Herschel's statement that only Otis knew about imprisoning the Walkers in any detail) that there was at LEAST one OTHER occasion where Otis took a zombie out of the bog and put it in the barn with the other Walkers. That much is airtight. Unless that teen is a compulsive liar, that is. And I don't see him lying to Herschel with his statement "It happened again!" Thoughts? Edit: @Thorn: Ok, we have to respect what Kirkman stated of course. That doesn't mean it's a situation that calls for suspension of disbelief though. It's a glaring scripting error in the KEY plot element(s) of the mid-season finale. Who did what, when they did it, and who knew what when and about what is the CORE of the finale. Will of course have another post up to completely disagree with you a bit later Thorn. Oh, and Shane was 150% right.