TWD 2x10 "18 Miles Out" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[AcesandEights]

Rick and Shane are even. Rick was a hair away from abandoning Shane to the Walkers, but just as Shane did when he had Rick in his crosshairs Rick pulled himself back from the brink at the last moment. You're reaching and doing so with horrible comparisons. Shane had just barely missed caving his skull in with a monkey wrench, and released (yet another) torrent of zombies...different circumstances entirely.

[kidgloves]

What about the zombie stack then? And the gun through the zombies skull to shoot another one. We've had that sort of effect in Diary but its great to it see again. Zombie head squash via the car was nice. I don't really need the gore to enjoy the genre but this sort of stuff is very welcome at times and it sounds like the writers are pitching in with suggestions for gags. Looks like we are heading into anarchy by the previews for next week. Can't wait.

[babomb]

The thing about Rick almost leaving Shane is that there was no real evidence that he even actually considered that. That's speculation in the mind of the viewer. He hurried away but it could've been because he was hatching the plan to rescue him, with the vehicle just like he did. After Shane stabbed the walker in the head on the bus, I immediately thought he was gonna lose that knife! That's a job for a nice long gimlet... In my mind I started seeing Shane systematically kill every walker outside the bus using that method. It's possible, and if anyone could do it it would be Shane. Then walk all the way back to the farm and do the same to Rick.

[AcesandEights]

The thing about Rick almost leaving Shane is that there was no real evidence that he even actually considered that. That's speculation in the mind of the viewer. Though it's debatable that Rick never considered leaving Shane, the whole scene of Rick lingering over the two downed walker cops lain out next to one another is pretty clearly meant to evoke his consideration of his relation, partnership and tied destiny with Shane. Just by going by the methods the scene is put together, it seems pretty clear the intent is to convey that it was a possibility in Rick's mind, to one degree or another, to leave Shane to his fate. No doubt it was a very well conceived and directed part of the episode...almost certainly the most pivotal aspect of the episode.

[Thorn]

You're reaching and doing so with horrible comparisons. Shane had just barely missed caving his skull in with a monkey wrench, and released (yet another) torrent of zombies...different circumstances entirely. Not only a reach or a stretch you are reading your perception into the characters motivation, he may have who knows. I watched it and I thought, there is no way Rick is leaving Shane, he is going to regroup and set something up. Then they had him linger over the corpses of the guys in uniform and it entered my mind he may have been considering leaving Shane all along. Though maybe he was just considering their past relationship and how far it has gone... how "dead" their friendship was. We just don't know, either is plausible and since Shane screwed his wife, and was working against him actively, and tried to kill him with a giant wrench... I think he would have been justified.

[Moon Knight]

I agree that this show is just getting better as better. Shane must have been pretty humiliated getting rescued by Rick and giving in to Rick's way of handeling things. At first I though that Shane might be coming down to earth and maybe would be willing to work with Rick on decision making but judging by the preview trailer things only get worse in Shane's mind. Loved the scene when Rick paused to view the two cops corpses. Yes, I believe he was ready to leave Shane until he stared at the two dead walkers. Also, the ending conversation mirroring the original conversation with this time all that action and danger in between was awesome. The lone walker bit was creepy as hell too. Loved it.

[acealive1]

if any doubt remained about shane being off the deep end, its officially gone now. he saw a walker in the field..........TWICE and didnt say shit about it. that just gives me the creeps. but it seems like he dummies up when his life is at stake (i.e. he saw rick leaving the bus area)

[AcesandEights]

i also particularly loved the shot of the lone walker shambling through the field, that was eerie...probably one of the most cinematic shots i've seen in a living-dead film/show. and then they went ahead and ended the episode with that same haunting image. The lone walker bit was creepy as hell too. Loved it. Yeah, I have to agree. That scene paralleling the lone forlorn zombie and Shane uncomfortably sitting in the car and wondering just what is going through his head was great and eery as hell, even more so when they come back around to the same zombie again at the end of the episode. What about the zombie stack then? And the gun through the zombies skull to shoot another one. I kinda thought it was badass and appropriate to the situation...thankfully he did it with multiple shots, otherwise the believability factor would have annoyed me. As those zombies piled on top of Rick, I just kept thinking "Okay Dave Navarro, here you go..." This one was great, but I really hope they don't do a gag kill a week, though...

[kidgloves]

I think when Shane was looking at that lone zombie he was thinking "thats me. Nobody understands my way of thinking and im all alone". So he has more in common with the things he wants to kill than he realises. After all they are us. Its this sort of small detail open to interpretation that i love and fills me with confidence about where this show is heading.

[Wyldwraith]

First: I've re-watched that scene four times now, and I feel 100% confident in saying that Shane threw the wrench in Rick's direction as a matter of pique, NOT trying to hit him. The throw was much too high and wide for an intent to hit (at least IMO). Second: Go back and listen to Rick's tone when he barks "Let's GO!" at Randall then bolts for the car. There's at LEAST as much reason to believe Rick intended to abandon Shane as to believe Rick was planning to rescue him all along even before one considers the symbolism of Rick looking at the two dead Walker-cops. After that shot, I think it's pretty clear that post-rescue the subtext of Rick's demands for Shane's obedience was "Obey or next time I make sure you die." Rick was HERSCHEL-LEVEL totalitarian in his demand for Shane's obedience. The whole "My say" thing was EXTREMELY reminiscent of Herschel when the old coot is demanding his authority be acknowledged on his farm. Not that I have a problem with Rick and Shane having it out directly over leadership of the group. Shane is by far the more qualified leader, and Rick usurped his authority in the first place. If the otherwise kindest, most decent, honest and loyal guy on the planet was demanding the final word and the right to make decisions that effect whether I live or die I'd rather die fighting than submit like that. It would be downright thrilling to see Rick and Shane shoot it out over control of the group. I'll freely admit that (like everyone else) I bring my own biases to any interpretations of less than perfectly clear-cut social actions. I'm a strong believer that results trump intent 100% of the time, that leadership should go to the most capable not the most charismatic. (Incidentally, if you look at history the majority of leaders who managed to advance themselves via charisma rather than effective leadership ability TEND to be individuals who believe in unilateral authority...so long as its THEIR unilateral authority. On the small scale you have deeply troubled individuals like Charles Manson, The "Reverend" Jim Jones, David Koresh, Rod Ferral etc. While on the large scale you have Napoleon, Richleu (sp?), Robespierre, Emperors Octavian & Claudius, Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong(sp?) The rogues gallery of the infamous who wielded significantly more charisma than actual leadership is legion.) I believe in brutal honesty, tact = weakness/dishonesty, the necessity of earning the right to lead via demonstrable successes and that loyalty is something you earn not demand. So I DO empathize deeply with the Shane character. Shane consistently makes better calls, but as Andrea told him "Your presentation leaves something to be desired." By the same token, I've had extensive experience with manipulative women who make a mess of things and then rewrites history so someone else either has to clean up said mess or take the fall for it. Lori could, if she was so inclined, completely clean up the fallout of her history with Shane simply by accepting responsibility for her mistakes and ceasing to actively taunt a man who's been through the ringer because of her. Of course TWD is a world/setting of various moral shades of gray rather than black and white, but (and this is just my opinion) I feel there's a tendency amongst many of our compatriots here to want things to adhere as closely to the comics as is feasible in the television medium. That's cool and all, but the way things happen in the comic is not by any means automatically the "right way" for events and character interactions to transpire in our beloved TV show. I mean HONESTLY, does NO ONE ELSE perceive a baseline bias to the positive regarding discussion of the Rick character and a baseline bias to the negative regarding the Shane character? Finally, like everyone else, this last episode has left me dying to see how things finally shake out within the group. Especially now that the Rick VS Shane conflict of group ideology has moved from the "social cold war" to a hot one. I just find myself having a genuine and visceral emotional reaction on the one hand to Shane & Andrea, and on the other to Rick, Dale and Lori. That's awesome IMO, even if its a profoundly different outlook than many of my fellows here, because it makes for animated, intelligent debate of the issues TWD raises.

[Legion2213]

For me, this was the best episode of TWD to date, I really loved this one, so many cool things, Rick being piled on, the lone walker rambling through the feilds, the unbitten cops, the desperate battle at the utility works, Shane's little brush with losing it when he was trapped on the bus, Rick pulling the walker on top of him ala Daryl...just epic 2nd half of this season has been absolute TV gold...with the latest ep being a diamond to top it off.

[shootemindehead]

You're reaching and doing so with horrible comparisons. Shane had just barely missed caving his skull in with a monkey wrench, and released (yet another) torrent of zombies...different circumstances entirely. Agreed. Shane's unstable agression nearly ending up offing another one of the group (although technically Otis wasn't part of the group as such) and damn near got three people (himself included) killed. And how the hell is Rick and Shane "even". Rick returned for Shane. There was no real indication that he was ever "abandoning Shane to the walkers". Shane would probably have just killed the young fella and left Rick to his fate.

[Legion2213]

This one was great, but I really hope they don't do a gag kill a week, though... Have to say, I didn't see this as a gag-kill...more a invention of necessity.

[AnxietyDilemma]

First: I've re-watched that scene four times now, and I feel 100% confident in saying that Shane threw the wrench in Rick's direction as a matter of pique, NOT trying to hit him. The throw was much too high and wide for an intent to hit (at least IMO). It was twirling directly at his head with considerable velocity following a heated confrontation, and he growled like an animal as he heaved it. Dare I bring up the moment where he dropped the motorcycle on Rick's leg? It was a little more than fisticuffs between bickering friends. Neither one of them backed off like "Whoa, what the hell are you doing?", everything that has built up to this point in the series culminated in that instance, they let it loose. I mean sure, Shane's objective was to shoot Randall, and Rick was trying to stop him, but it was all triggered by Shane's words and there was a lot of aggression that they took out on one another. I think that Shane absolutely tried to hit Rick with the wrench in the heat of the moment. If Rick were a little more like Shane, Shane would be dead, so he might think that it jeopardizes the safety of the group, but it certainly has benefited him directly to this point so far.

[Wyldwraith]

We can agree to disagree about the throw of the wrench. I'm with you so far as Shane being furious when he heaved the wrench in Rick's direction, but you lose me when the wrench impacts a full Rick-body-height into the window the Walkers come pouring out of. Not that I can't see why one might see the deal with the wrench differently, I just don't see it that way because as close as the two men were (to me at least) it's improbable that Shane missed hitting Rick so badly that the wrench hit a window WELL ABOVE Rick's head. As to which man poses the greater danger, I'm convinced that it's more illuminating to compare the lives that Rick's actions have DIRECTLY endangered versus the lives that Shane's actions have DIRECTLY endangered. NEITHER MAN deserves a "pass" because on this or that occasion a twist of fate beyond their control resulted in the survival of one or more individuals they'd endangered. To that end, I offer the following comparison of the lives placed in direct jeopardy by the decisions and corresponding actions of each man. Rick: 1) Within 48 hours of awakening to learn the world now belonged to the Walkers, Rick rides straight down a main thoroughfare of Atlanta in the hopes of reaching the Rescue Station he'd heard about from Morgan as a first step in his quest to reunite with Lori and Carl. Within five minutes of entering Atlanta proper, Rick is nearly killed and finds himself with no means of escape (under his own power) from the tank he'd taken shelter within. Escaping the tank via Glenn's altruistic assistance, Rick's many gunshots as he sprints toward his rendezvous with Glenn result in the Scavenging Party becoming trapped and besieged by the horde of Walkers Rick's gunshots and flight from drove into a frenzied focus on the trapped survivors. Subsequently Rick leaves Meryl handcuffed on the roof (reasonably enough, no argument) and succeeds in facilitating the group's escape by the narrowest of margins. 2) Rick's conscience drives him to go back for Meryl. As a result, Glenn is taken hostage because they delayed the retrieval of the guns until after they'd looked for Meryl. The tense standoff when Rick answers the Vato leader's ultimatum with a declaration of their willingness to fight it out. By chance, the extremely tense/potentially deadly standoff is averted by the arrival of the elderly woman. Had Rick & Co. gone for the guns before Meryl they would have arrived well before the Vatos dispatched to seize the Bag O' Guns. 2.1) Rick's decision to go after Meryl resulted in ALL the effective combatants except Shane being absent from the camp at the time of the Walker-attack that resulted in the deaths of Ed, Amy, Jim, two of the Latin-American men and one Latin-American woman whose names escape me. It is CERTAINLY DEBATABLE precisely who would or wouldn't have died had Rick/Daryl/T-Dog and Glenn been there at the attack's outset rather than towards the peak of the attack, but Ed and Amy were lost to surprise attacks. More eyes in camp, particularly Glenn's exacting attention to details and Daryl's high degree of situational awareness would have increased the chance of the Walkers being spotted before the surprise attacks on Ed & Amy and thereby decreased the chance either would die as they did. 3) The legacy of Rick's search for Meryl bears the last of its dark fruit when Jackie elects to die in the CDC control room with Jenner and Andrea's attempt to do likewise because of Amy's loss. Which doesn't even touch on the fact that the entire group would've died in the CDC Rick insisted on going to save that Carol had been holding onto the grenade Rick had found in the tank since discovering it before they even left camp while doing the laundry. The situation with Sophia has too many unknown variables to even debate whose responsible for her demise. 4) Rick agreeing to do things Herschel's way and pull the Walkers out of the bog with catch-poles nearly results in the young man from Herschel's group being bitten when "Rick's Walker" lands almost atop the teen when Rick stumbles moving up the embankment from the bog. Subsequently, Rick's intent to assist Herschel in putting the pair of Walkers into the already crowded-with-Walkers barn despite the fact neither had ANY experience with what they were trying to do put Rick himself, Herschel and the teen from Herschel's group in direct danger...and would have endangered EVERYONE ELSE had they remained unarmed as Rick had directed them to remain in order to appease Herschel. 5) The short straight knife Rick gave Andrea from the bundle of edged weapons Carl found as her only means of defense, despite her vigorous protest, proved completely ineffective as a weapon of defense for a woman already at a significant reach disadvantage compared to the Walker that attacked her. Rick's logic (same as Shane and Dale on this issue) was mostly sound about limiting the guns floating around in light of the Walker-herd in the immediate area, but the blade he took for himself and the ones given to Daryl and Glenn were VASTLY superior as Walker-killing weapons compared to the knife given to Andrea. Without the miraculously well-timed intervention of Maggie, Andrea would have been undoubtedly bitten before help from the group she was with could reach her. Shane: 1) Had Shane not used excessive force against Ed as a way to blow off steam from his argument with Lori, Ed would likely have been with the rest of the group instead of laid up in his tent recovering. Making Ed the first victim of the surprise attack. 2) (Partial and unforeseeable responsibility) Shane also bears indirect responsibility for the scavenging team becoming trapped and besieged due to Rick, because Shane refused to dispatch anyone (or allow Lori to go as she'd volunteered) to place warning signs about Atlanta on the main road leading there. 3) Otis. 4) Jeopardizing his own life, Rick's and Randall's by stirring the Walkers inside the building through his wild/angered flinging of the wrench that shattered the window. 5) (Again partial responsibility) Shane backed Dale when Dale seized Andrea's gun, which lead to the aforementioned near-miss with the Walker that Maggie saved Andrea from. That's all I can think of to either man's account, but I welcome any input from my fellows Edit: I seem to have a tendency of killing threads by coming on too strong with my positions. Truly, I don't mean to diminish anyone's enjoyment of the discussions over differently-perceived elements about our beloved TWD program. I went all systematic for this last post in an attempt to bring my participation back closer to the objective center of discussion. So, I apologize to all that my posts are easily perceived as abrasive, and as if I'm steamrolling different PoVs. That's the very last thing I want to do, my word on that. Sometimes plot elements seem so obvious in their "true" interpretation to me, but I suppose I need to take a second and even third look if I'm so out of sync that my posts become something people want to avoid. Sorry guys and gals. I know my worldview by no means belongs to the majority consensus, but its my hope that if I try harder maybe my ideas might become something other than the hand-written equivalent of spam.