TWD 8x12 "The Key" episode discussion... **SPOILERS**

[Moon Knight]

It wasn’t simply in the background, MZ. They actually had it on screen; giving it full attention. Not saying it was amazing or cool, just saying they did kind of focus on it a bit. Maybe I do need to rewatch it, though. All I know is when I saw it I was like “oh there is the naked walker. Meh.” I loved how chaotic Rick was in that scene, Neil. Very primal and yeah he was making bad decisions but it just added that much needed bit of rawness for me. Guy acted appropriate for a man who just lost a son. Not saying your wrong, however, just the way I took that scene in. If someone didn’t buy into it I understand why.

[MinionZombie]

It wasn’t simply in the background, MZ. They actually had it on screen; giving it full attention. Not saying it was amazing or cool, just saying they did kind of focus on it a bit. Maybe I do need to rewatch it, though. All I know is when I saw it I was like “oh there is the naked walker. Meh.” I loved how chaotic Rick was in that scene, Neil. Very primal and yeah he was making bad decisions but it just added that much needed bit of rawness for me. Guy acted appropriate for a man who just lost a son. Not saying your wrong, however, just the way I took that scene in. If someone didn’t buy into it I understand why. 1) The bizarrely-promoted 'nude walker' - went back and looked at the scene again. It's in 3 or 4 shots, one of which is completely blurred as background to a CU of Dwight, the intro is a wide shot with it appearing kinda small within the frame, and the final shot is again with it in the background and the burning car in the foreground (the flames initially blocking the walker itself). When you do see it you've got no idea whether it was male or female - I think it was supposed to be male from what I read about it - and the 'fun zone' is just a big crotch-covering dark patch, really. Why on earth they promoted this at all is beyond me ... much like why am I putting this much attention into it? 2) There's a moment earlier on where Rick is about to honk his horn (not sure what his plan was gonna be there), but you see him hesitate, then he appears to think 'fuck it' and he hops in to chase down Negan - so he's acting impulsively. At least with Rick it's fully justified as he's dealing with the loss of Carl - his entire reason for being (meanwhile Judith is sitting there going "Yo, wtf Daddy Grimes? Forget about me?" ) - so he goes a bit rogue and desperate with it. I do agree that the 'just shoot a load at the bottom of the upturned car' was a bit silly. A shooting gun is exciting on-screen, but I would have preferred a slight tweak - maybe Negan staggers out from cover, Rick is just getting out of his car and slings some lead Negan's way sloppily (i.e. not aiming down the sights yet), Negan ducks back behind the engine block, Rick tries to fire through the car a little bit (notice the bullet holes going straight through the dented bonnet of the car right next to Negan's head - he nearly clipped him - nice detail to put into that sequence, so good on them for that), but then his gun jams, so it's less about 'rage-fuelled waste of bullets'. You could then have Rick wrestling with his gun, frustrated as all get out in the moment, at which point he throws away the gun in a furious move - then he charges into the building. Just a slight tweak could have made that moment smoother, but the 'issue' being discussed isn't too big. ... What do folks think Jadis is gonna do with Negan? Trade him for something, Simon maybe?

[Moon Knight]

Freaking MZ got me going back and looking at nude zombies. I think the horn was to single to the other lookouts the Saviors were coming but Rick decided to go after Negan himself. Jadis definitely wants Simon to herself. I hope she doesn’t die this season. Please no.

[shootemindehead]

Jadis is probably going to trade Negan to Rick for a seat at the table I reckon.

[MinionZombie]

Freaking MZ got me going back and looking at nude zombies. Jadis is probably going to trade Negan to Rick for a seat at the table I reckon. Interesting! Hadn't thought of that as a possibility ... now, if that's the plan, we've still got four more episodes to go, so if that was the plan it could be dragged out like nobody's business (I feel that TWD should reduce the episode count to a svelte 12 - six and six), but anyway. If that's not the case, then surely it'll tie-in with Simon somehow, particularly as Simon slaughtered her people ... so the trade with Rick is an interesting theory, certainly plausible, but I'd put my dollery-doos on a trade for Simon to exact some vengeance.

[shootemindehead]

Interesting! Hadn't thought of that as a possibility ... now, if that's the plan, we've still got four more episodes to go, so if that was the plan it could be dragged out like nobody's business (I feel that TWD should reduce the episode count to a svelte 12 - six and six), but anyway. If that's not the case, then surely it'll tie-in with Simon somehow, particularly as Simon slaughtered her people ... so the trade with Rick is an interesting theory, certainly plausible, but I'd put my dollery-doos on a trade for Simon to exact some vengeance. It's probably not correct, but   it ties into how Negan ends up in the comic. It's just by a different route.

[Moon Knight]

It's probably not correct, but   it ties into how Negan ends up in the comic. It's just by a different route. I expect things to wrap up a tad differently than the source material. You could be right.

[shootemindehead]

Sure. They're trying to force their own narrative line and why not. But, I think   how Negan ended up in the comic was one of the more interesting events to have had happen in that storyline. Mind you, I've yet to read much beyond his capture, so I don't know how that pans out yet. But, it may not go that way at all. It could boil down to a Negan and Simon thing at the end of the series and we'll have to wait til the end of the year for more. Simon is poised to seize control already and is eager for it. That leaves this series pretty much in the same position as it started though. It's still going to be "All Out War" in series 9, with no resolution. I think people are getting a little tired of the show's limitations in this matter. We've had the Governor, Negan and now (potentially) Simon. The show is in full on and perpetual "the real monsters are us" mode. So much so that when a zombie shows up, it's a bit of a novelty now. It was actually refreshing to see a new group show up that wanted to share shit, instead of shoot everyone or just be dicks. I'm interested to see where that goes, but, I'm failing to see where the drama will stem from. But, at the same time, I think 'The Walking Dead' needs something other than the rinse/repeat formula she's been pushing. Anyway, the next few episodes will be interesting.

[Moon Knight]

Sure. They're trying to force their own narrative line and why not. But, I think   how Negan ended up in the comic was one of the more interesting events to have had happen in that storyline. Mind you, I've yet to read much beyond his capture, so I don't know how that pans out yet. But, it may not go that way at all. It could boil down to a Negan and Simon thing at the end of the series and we'll have to wait til the end of the year for more. Simon is poised to seize control already and is eager for it. That leaves this series pretty much in the same position as it started though. It's still going to be "All Out War" in series 9, with no resolution. I think people are getting a little tired of the show's limitations in this matter. We've had the Governor, Negan and now (potentially) Simon. The show is in full on and perpetual "the real monsters are us" mode. So much so that when a zombie shows up, it's a bit of a novelty now. It was actually refreshing to see a new group show up that wanted to share shit, instead of shoot everyone or just be dicks. I'm interested to see where that goes, but, I'm failing to see where the drama will stem from. But, at the same time, I think 'The Walking Dead' needs something other than the rinse/repeat formula she's been pushing. Anyway, the next few episodes will be interesting. Maaaaaaan, no way this story is carrying over until season 9. That would be disastrous. Regarding the above spoiler....   I have no doubt it ends in Negan's capture to move into the time jump story line, but I was thinking it plays out a bit different than the books. It was kinda anticlimactic in the books and that ending wouldn't fly with the more impatient casual TV audience. I believe this is why Simon is being built up to be the big final boss for the end of this season.

[beat_truck]

I know that I am all for the show starting to go in a different direction. The whole psychopath/villain rinse and repeat story line sure is getting old, IMO.

[MinionZombie]

You have to have an antagonist, so I always get a little irked when I hear the "rinse & repeat" thing, especially when the methodology of the villains is different from one to the next ... however, I do agree that we need more zombie threat on the show again. We had a great Season 6 in that regard, but it's been light on walker trouble since then. But, likewise, you can't just have constant walker threat or it just becomes samey as well. I agree that it's nice to see Georgie & Co as nice strangers for a change. At this point in the apocalypse it's the more unusual thing to come across (and therefore more interesting). Regarding Simon/Negan and theories about the next four episodes and what comes after (some comics spoilers/references):   Simon is being built up as a 'greater of two evils' kind of deal - a big name in Sanctuary needs to die, but there's a whole story arc awaiting Negan post-war - so the audience need some bloody satisfaction to smooth over Negan remaining alive-but-imprisoned ... which, in itself, is part of why this arc is different to previous clashes with antagonists. I think All Out War will be wrapped up by season's end, especially as it started in Season 7 - well, in 7x16's close - and being that there's a change of showrunner it'd make the most sense to have AOW wrapped up, then you can inject fresh new stuff for Season 9 with the inclusion of a big time jump, which I'm expecting. The episode titles would, to me, suggest a conclusion to the AOW storyline by the end of the season. It's interesting to see the show, seemingly, moving towards the survivors working towards a new society and not just merely surviving. Georgie's book of knowledge is a big step in that direction, and I'm hoping that the time jump will show us a lot of societal progress come Season 9's premiere. I really want to see more Maggie/Gregory stuff - there's a great storyline in the comics regarding those two, but we've not seen enough of it yet. I wonder if we'll get some more of that over the next four episodes. There's some very good meat on the bones to dig into there. And, hopefully, AMC will pay Cohan the amount she's asking for - she's a major character, she's been there since Season 2, and she's one of the major players on the show now. It'd be foolish to lose her over a relative few bucks.

[shootemindehead]

Maaaaaaan, no way this story is carrying over until season 9. That would be disastrous. Regarding the above spoiler....   I have no doubt it ends in Negan's capture to move into the time jump story line, but I was thinking it plays out a bit different than the books. It was kinda anticlimactic in the books and that ending wouldn't fly with the more impatient casual TV audience. I believe this is why Simon is being built up to be the big final boss for the end of this season. Maybe. But with just four eps to go and Simon ready to take over as Apocalypse Psycho Leader #274, I just can't see a solid, and more importantly, satisfying conclusion here. Simon wants to wipe out everyone. He's not going to agree to a truce. Perhaps he gets off'd by Dwight? Negan is captured by Rick. The War "ends" at S8. S9 sees the period of growth afterwards, spurred on by Georgie's group? Think is that doesn't follow the simplistic "cliff hanger" crap that US TV shows employ to keep audiences hooked as it were. Comics -->   Where I am in the comics when I stopped reading, was Negan was caught. The time jump happened, they met up with Magma (or whatever) and also the whisperers. One of their kids got caught by Maggie's group and then released and Karl has gone after her. Kinda lost interest there, but I'll pick it up sometime. Those Whisperers are fucking stupid though and everybody knows my hatred for that walking among zombies crap. So, I'll lose my shit if they're incorporated into the show at some point. - - - Updated - - - You have to have an antagonist, so I always get a little irked when I hear the "rinse & repeat" thing, especially when the methodology of the villains is different from one to the next ... however, I do agree that we need more zombie threat on the show again. We had a great Season 6 in that regard, but it's been light on walker trouble since then. But, likewise, you can't just have constant walker threat or it just becomes samey as well. The "rinse & repeat" thing is the psycho leaders schtick and Simon is no better than either the Governor or Negan in that regard. Inevitably, people are going to grow tired of that. I think a lot of people have already. Sure, it follows the comics, but for casuals, it very much is a "rinse & repeat" situation. Of course, an antagonist is needed. But, there needs to more effort put into their motivations other than, I'm a loony. I think with the saviours, they've tried to present some of them as ordinary folk trying to get on with stuff. But, no group of people would put up with Negan's style of "leadership" for too long, no matter what the situation. I don't know how the show can write a fresh perspective for a new antagonist, but they need to move away from the psycho leader angle.   Just so long as it's not those whisperer dicks I agree that it's nice to see Georgie & Co as nice strangers for a change. At this point in the apocalypse it's the more unusual thing to come across (and therefore more interesting). Sure, but as I said, where's the drama? Their "interest", so far it seems, is that they aren't just more apocalyptic arseholes. But, everybody building a new society in S9 isn't going to do much for the show's viewing figures. All that being said, I don't know where the comic went after I stopped reading, so there may be a great new story arc in those pages that the producers are going to pull out of the bag.

[Moon Knight]

Shoot.   The Whisperers if done right can be really good. They just don’t slab on some blood and call it a day. They actually wear Walker skins! They actually look like zombies and makes more sense. Give it a chance on the show. They don’t go looking to kill people just to kill people. Rick and company crossed their territory. They can actually be scary. As far as the books, it didn’t really end very well for me. Hoping the show can remedy that.

[MinionZombie]

The "rinse & repeat" thing is the psycho leaders schtick and Simon is no better than either the Governor or Negan in that regard. Inevitably, people are going to grow tired of that. I think a lot of people have already. Sure, it follows the comics, but for casuals, it very much is a "rinse & repeat" situation. Of course, an antagonist is needed. But, there needs to more effort put into their motivations other than, I'm a loony. I think with the saviours, they've tried to present some of them as ordinary folk trying to get on with stuff. But, no group of people would put up with Negan's style of "leadership" for too long, no matter what the situation. Sure, but as I said, where's the drama? Their "interest", so far it seems, is that they aren't just more apocalyptic arseholes. But, everybody building a new society in S9 isn't going to do much for the show's viewing figures. All that being said, I don't know where the comic went after I stopped reading, so there may be a great new story arc in those pages that the producers are going to pull out of the bag. 'Psycho' villains. They've done a good job with The Saviours, I feel - there's an ethos behind it all. I reckon they could have done with a Negan backstory episode this season to see how the methodology came to be. The "Here's Negan!" spin-off comic did a pretty good job of being able to see it from his side (that there is a reason for his approach), although the show would have to juice it up a bit and put a bit of extra throught into presenting it on-screen. Aye, I know what you mean about Georgie - I was thinking the same thing myself once they turned out to be (seemingly) good guys. There's no conflict in that, so there'll have to be something. Regarding "The Whisperers" and the comics post-AOW:   Yeah, that plotline was kinda ropey. Some of it just made no sense, some of it seemed too "out there" in a Beyond Thunderdome manner - please not more of that, TWD writers, the Heapsters were dodgy enough as it is! ... but some aspects/characters from it were quite good. Certainly, for the 'mental justification' for a group of people to act like that then you'd need a big time jump to have enough 'apocalypse time' to warp minds and change rules, but even still, you'd have to be so careful in how you represented it. The Whisperers could be put on screen, but they'd have to walk a tight rope to achieve it. Waver too much one way or the other and it'd be a turd festival. There's certain plotlines I've really enjoyed in the post-AOW comics - and the death of a major character was handled really well and carries a lot of weight with it - and the Negan/Rick stuff during the massive zombie onslaught was really good. There's lots of really good material coming up, as well as some stuff that is probably going to be really tricky to pull off on-screen, tonally speaking (as well as in terms of the show's own barometer for realism), as well as some stuff that doesn't really work in the comics all that much ... so I hope they can ditch the dodgy bits and wrestle the good bits together in a satisfying manner without dragging things out too long etc.

[JDP]

It's interesting to see the show, seemingly, moving towards the survivors working towards a new society and not just merely surviving. Georgie's book of knowledge is a big step in that direction, and I'm hoping that the time jump will show us a lot of societal progress come Season 9's premiere. Which sounds ludicrous at this point, since they already had plenty of time before this current situation to move in that direction. The information that Georgie & company are peddling is nothing new and unheard of, it's all based on man's achievements over the past centuries, all of which are well documented in standard books you can find in virtually any library. There is no reason why such things should remain some sort of precious commodity, when accessing them would be so easy. There's not going to be many survivors holing up in libraries, there should be nothing stopping anyone from just raiding one. Plus the group already had a pretty savvy fellow, Eugene, who could have started moving things in that direction but they did not take more advantage of his talents. It was in fact Negan who saw more potential in Eugene's knowledge, but of course Negan uses it for devious purposes mostly.