Stopping power 9mm vs .40

[Publius]

The 45. is an ass kicker. It definatley has stopping power because the bullet is designed to create "hydrostatic shock" (at least the ammunition I shot.). I heard it is similar to getting hit with a cannon ball rather than the bullet going right through. Obligatory zombie connection: Hydrostatic shock as a wounding mechanism is somewhat controversial because most body tissues are more elastic than ballistic gelatin, and there is widespread disagreement about how much damage can be caused from what kind of bullets via ballistic shock waves. However, there is probably more agreement about hydrostatic shock from very high velocity rounds, like full-power rifle rounds. Some studies have shown damage to the brain from hits to the chest. The brain? This suggests that with a big enough, fast enough projectile, you may be able to take out zombies with a chest shot. It would be awesome to see a demonstration of this in a movie, maybe with someone using a .50 BMG sniper rifle to kill zombies with long-range center-of-mass shots.

[Yojimbo]

Who or what are you trying to stop, Jimbo? My wife and I likely will spend a lot of time and money at the range shooting at these things and hope that we never have to shoot at anything else. http://www.rimrockfirearms.com/targets.html ---------- Post added at 10:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 PM ---------- Training would be very helpful in learning how to recongize a bad situation and therefore avoid it, or try to minimize it, as well as how to improve your ability with the gun, learn malfunction drills, reload drills, and tactics like retention, room clearing, and such to make you more effective if it does come down to settling things with hot lead. Excellent point, Wooley. I think that all gun owners should be required by law to go through training exactly like you mentioned. As it is now, at least in California, there is a lame written test primarily concerned with basic gun safety that has to be passed in order to purchase. Far too little! ---------- Post added at 10:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ---------- I think it's a good idea to find a range that rents guns, give each a try, and see what feels most comfortable for you. I totally agree with you and the other posters that stressed range time. Since my wife might need to pick up this piece at some point and fire it, it is vital that the recoil/weight be manageable not only for me but for her as well, and finding this out before purchasing is an extremely good idea. Once the decision on which piece to purchase is made, proficiency can only be had through practice and drilling. ---------- Post added at 10:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 PM ---------- For home defense go with a shotgun using a light load, #6 birdshot, for example. Bullets can and will penetrate doors, walls, etc. and pose a danger to others--especially in an apartment/condo scenario. Plus, as someone else correctly mentioned, a shotgun being cycled for in preparation for firing has a sound that will often stop an intruder in their tracks and send them them running. I agree with you and Skippy, the sound of a 12 gauge pump is the best defense. I do have an old Mossberg 500 with a modified choke barrel that is just way, way too long, that I intend to retrofit with the shortest barrel legally allowed in my state. That being said, even with a short barrel it is way too heavy for my wife. Maybe it's time I think about one of those Taurus Judge .410/45 revovlers for the nightstand? Yeah, I know that lacks the pump action sound (which is the point) but those things look so cool!

[strayrider]

Yeah, I know that lacks the pump action sound (which is the point) but those things look so cool! Although the "sound" of the gun being pumped does have psychological value, the point is to be able to neutralize your target. I really can't comment on the effectiveness of the Tauris Judge .410/.45LC combo. I've never owned, or fired one. If you're wanting something that your wife can utilize, you may want to go with a sub-compact pistol (whatever model and caliber that SHE is most comfortable with). Just keep in mind that if you're using it as a "nightstand" pistol keep it loaded with hollow-point bullets. The hollow-points expand and are less likely to over-penetrate whatever they strike making them less likely to hurt someone that you did not intend to shoot. You have to make the ultimate decision, Yoh, whatever you and your wife are most comfortable with (in the largest caliber possible). -stray- ps-- but hey! Why stop with a single gun purchase? Get one for her and one for you! Then buy more! You can NEVER own too many guns.

[Yojimbo]

but hey! Why stop with a single gun purchase? Get one for her and one for you! Then buy more! You can NEVER own too many guns. Whatever caliber the auto I get ends up being,9mm or .40, I still like that .410/.45 taurus - though it was a matter of folly and sort of a joke that I mentioned it. I own several revolvers - charter arms undercover and S&W Airweight both snub.38s, and a Ruger Speed Six 357, also a snub. My house loads are semi-wadcutters that I have cross grooved (though perhaps I should switch to hollowpoints as you mentioned for saftey reasons since I do have some semi-jacketed hollowpoint .38 +p at my disposal) My current nightstand piece is the Ruger and the S&W my wife's. At the range, she is decidely the better shot even though I'm the one that trained her. Maybe I can talk her into allowing me to purchase both a Glock and and the Taurus? Well, I can dream, at least!

[Publius]

If you're wanting something that your wife can utilize, you may want to go with a sub-compact pistol (whatever model and caliber that SHE is most comfortable with). A subcompact pistol and a tape recorder with the sound of a shotgun being racked.

[slickwilly13]

Why the angry face outside the topic? Is someone going get killed?

[AcesandEights]

Why the angry face outside the topic? Is someone going get killed? I just came in here to ask the same question! I'd been following the thread the last few days, without anything useful to add, but just noticed the angry face this morning.

[Yojimbo]

I just came in here to ask the same question! I'd been following the thread the last few days, without anything useful to add, but just noticed the angry face this morning. Thanks for pointing that out to me. You know, I had put that up some time ago when the functionality had been first added to the site- apparently at that time my mood was brooding, though now I cannot recall why I was in a sour mood that day - and I promptly forgot about it so it has remained that way ever since. I am going to change that today since discussions of firearms should be a happy- not brooding- thing.

[childofgilead]

The problem with high velocity rounds such as the 9mm and .40, especially in +P or +P+ is that they can pass straight through a target without transferring any energy INTO the target. It'd be the equivalent of being stabbed with a pencil. Or a crayon going REALLY fast. heh. Many lesser quality "defense" rounds do not properly deform, and their expense generally means you can't test them much to make sure they feed properly. (many weapons, even though overbuilt to handle the pressure may still not feed them properly) Whatever you choose, shot placement is key. That weapon is no more useful than a brick if you can't confidently and consistently place shots center mass. The point isn't just being accurate, it's being able to clear jams with high adrenaline, in the dark with someone screaming in your ear or coming at you with a hunting knife. Self defense is complicated!

[strayrider]

I own several revolvers So you're not a gun "newbie" then. If you're simply seeking an automatic handgun forget everything that was mentioned and go with this: http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=2 Anything (and everything) else is a waste of time. Go for it. You owe it to yourself. You deserve it! -stray-

[Arcades057]

Just wanted to correct a few things here: 1: Please, do not ever suggest that the sound of a shotgun being readied to fire is a valuable defensive strategy. If it was said in jest, then forgive my righteous indignation. This is an old, old wives' tale like "it's best to use birdshot in your defense shotgun. To test this theory grab a sheet of plywood and stand 8 feet from it (typical engagement range for self-defense shootings) and put a round of birdshot into it. Then fire a round of 00 buck. All of you remember that Dick Cheney shot his friend in the head and neck with a shotgun at close range; that was birdshot. Buckshot, and Cheney would've been out one friend. 2: Even if a round "over-penetrates," or goes through its target, the area through which the wound passes is left with a wound cavity, as shown here: The fragmenting of the round is not nearly as important as the wound cavity. The cavity is what kills you, by the way, not the 9mm-in-diameter bullet happening upon an artery or organ. 3: if you're using it as a "nightstand" pistol keep it loaded with hollow-point bullets I would suggest, unless you're planning to engage a home-invader wearing multiple layers of denim or light body-armor (in other words, if you live in a fatasy world or are a drug-dealer) use holow-point or hydrashock for all of your defense weapons. 4: Excellent point, Wooley. I think that all gun owners should be required by law to go through training exactly like you mentioned. As it is now, at least in California, there is a lame written test primarily concerned with basic gun safety that has to be passed in order to purchase. Far too little! VERY slippery slope. Being a fundamental right guaranteed through the 2nd Amendment and the Bill of Rights, the right to bear arms is, or at least should be, protected by the same protections under law as voting, being safe from illegal search & seizure, and freely expressing your mind/practicing your religion. The more caveats added to that right (as in mandating classes or something for prospective gun owners) will form a precedent which could later be used to abridge other rights. Picture having to take a civics exam prior to voting, or losing your right to have freedom in your affairs from search and seizure after getting a speeding ticket. 5: Personally I like to think what could stop Giant rabid bears... You know like the kind that scare the shit out of you in Condemned 2. 10mm will take down a charging fricken Rancor, so go with that.

[Yojimbo]

I just came in here to ask the same question! I'd been following the thread the last few days, without anything useful to add, but just noticed the angry face this morning. In my earlier post I misunderstod and thought you were talking about the "mood" feature under my user name, but I now see that angry face on the post list. Someone angry? ---------- Post added at 07:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 PM ---------- VERY slippery slope. Being a fundamental right guaranteed through the 2nd Amendment and the Bill of Rights, the right to bear arms is, or at least should be, protected by the same protections under law as voting, being safe from illegal search & seizure, and freely expressing your mind/practicing your religion. The more caveats added to that right (as in mandating classes or something for prospective gun owners) will form a precedent which could later be used to abridge other rights. Picture having to take a civics exam prior to voting, or losing your right to have freedom in your affairs from search and seizure after getting a speeding ticket. Very true - points well taken. Thanks brother! ---------- Post added at 07:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 PM ---------- So you're not a gun "newbie" then. If you're simply seeking an automatic handgun forget everything that was mentioned and go with this: http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=2 Anything (and everything) else is a waste of time. Go for it. You owe it to yourself. You deserve it! -stray- Nice! Always wanted one of those!

[strayrider]

1: Please, do not ever suggest that the sound of a shotgun being readied to fire is a valuable defensive strategy. If it was said in jest, then forgive my righteous indignation. This is an old, old wives' tale like "it's best to use birdshot in your defense shotgun. To test this theory grab a sheet of plywood and stand 8 feet from it (typical engagement range for self-defense shootings) and put a round of birdshot into it. Then fire a round of 00 buck. All of you remember that Dick Cheney shot his friend in the head and neck with a shotgun at close range; that was birdshot. Buckshot, and Cheney would've been out one friend. As I stated, the sound of a shotgun being actioned (or a pistol being cocked) can have a psychological affect on an intruder, but you are correct. "Scaring" someone is not your primary mission in a defensive situation. The same can be said for simply showing the intruder that you are armed. They might take a hint and run for the door, or they might not. When you confront them expect the latter and fire without hesitation the second that they take a single step in your direction. Of course, if they do turn to run DO NOT shoot them in the back. (You'll have a hard time convincing a jury that someone was a threat if police find their body in your front yard with six bullet holes in their back). Do not communicate with them except to issue commands for them to submit. For example: "DON'T MOVE OR I'LL SHOOT!" If this does not convince them of your intent and they make any attempt to close the gap between themselves and you, shoot them as many times as is needed to put them down. In this case, do not worry if a shot or two hits them in the back. It has been proven that in "stress fire" situations the shooter is likely to continue pulling the trigger until the target is down. If the target happens to turn during the shooting (shying away from the pain and impact of the bullets) that is incidental damage. Your attorney (and you will need one in some cases) should be able to produce experts to testify (preferably police officers who have faced the same situation) on the tendency of a person to fire multiple rounds until a threat is neutralized. It is also advisable to not speak with anyone (your spouse and police included) about the shooting until you consult with your attorney. The only reason that I mention the communication issue is because I read an article some years ago by an "expert" (an anti-gunner, if I remember correctly) who tells us "That it is better to negotiate with a criminal rather than resort to violence." Try to remember that they are a human being, just like you, with thoughts and emotions--they laugh and they cry, they live and they love. It is not their fault that they must resort to crime due to social or economic injustice. Included in this article were quotes from inmates from various prisons who didn't believe it was "right" for someone to be able to shoot them just because they broke into a house. Take that into consideration before you go "blowing away" some poor person creeping around your home in the middle of the night looking for something to steal to sell for "food" (for their kids, of course, what good parent wouldn't resort to home break-in to feed their kids?). Ah, I'm off on a tangent...back on topic... The matter of using birdshot for HD is one that is constantly being debated. Some say "yes"; others "no". I favor it because it is less likely to penetrate walls, floors, doors, etc. inside an apartment or condo. At closer ranges it has the ability to act as a "slug" and penetrate several inches into a human body producing an incapacitating wound. Dick Cheney's friend was "speckled" by a few stray pellets of birdshot at a distance of 30 yards or so. At that range the shot pattern had spread nullifying the "slug" effect. Had Cheney hit him at a shorter range (say 2 yards) the wound would have probably been fatal. -stray-

[Skippy911sc]

I view this a lot like stray does. My intention is to protect my family not kill the intruder. I keep a .357 in my nightstand, but I would rather hit the alarm and let the noise of the alarm scare the intruder away. My brother in law had someone trying to break into his house and, believe it or not, the sound of his 870 was enough to scare that guy away. I don't really know how I would feel if I killed someone in my own home. But I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by six.

[Arcades057]

But I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by six. Truer words have rarely been spoken.