What were the bikers in Dawn tossing grenades at?

[MinionZombie]

I've just re-watched Dawn tonight and it reminded me of this topic thread. There's only a couple of grenades that get thrown, one of them specifically targeting a zombie. The first blows a chunk out of the ceiling on the exterior of the entrance via which the bikers eventually invade the mall. It would have made more sense for them to blow up the glass, but obviously for the reality of the production itself that was a no-go. You see, as they're invading the mall, what looks like a fair bit of damage to that exterior ceiling portion - lots of tiles missing, some bent metal supports dangling etc. Watching it again, it really does come off as nothing more than a bunch of yahoos whooping it up (these are the sorts who think it's a grand idea to test their blood pressure and have a pie fight during a raid, after all). They intend to move a truck to gain access (the "mouse hole"), but the biker who was talking on the radio points out that the whole glass side swings open, so an easy shoot up of the lock and in they go. The grenades don't really seem to be part of any kind of specific strategy to gain access. Just some explosive fun.

[JDP]

I've just re-watched Dawn tonight and it reminded me of this topic thread. There's only a couple of grenades that get thrown, one of them specifically targeting a zombie. The first blows a chunk out of the ceiling on the exterior of the entrance via which the bikers eventually invade the mall. It would have made more sense for them to blow up the glass, but obviously for the reality of the production itself that was a no-go. You see, as they're invading the mall, what looks like a fair bit of damage to that exterior ceiling portion - lots of tiles missing, some bent metal supports dangling etc. Watching it again, it really does come off as nothing more than a bunch of yahoos whooping it up (these are the sorts who think it's a grand idea to test their blood pressure and have a pie fight during a raid, after all). They intend to move a truck to gain access (the "mouse hole"), but the biker who was talking on the radio points out that the whole glass side swings open, so an easy shoot up of the lock and in they go. The grenades don't really seem to be part of any kind of specific strategy to gain access. Just some explosive fun. We see a zombie get blown up, but one hardly expects that it was the intended target. Like I said before, any zombies blown up in the process are incidental, they just happen to be around all over the place, so it is perfectly understandable why some of them would get hit by the explosions. If the zombies were the intended target they would be throwing those grenades at where they congregate in the largest numbers. But that's not what they do. And it is hardly logical they wanted to waste grenades on just "having fun", when they are in fact surrounded all over the place by hostile zombies. They start fooling around and having fun once they break into the mall, where they have plenty of space and access to loads of free stuff they can easily afford to waste on just plain old vandalism. Before that, it's "business" first: clear up the zombies around the entrances and whatever obstacles that may be around that make it difficult to break in into the place. No time for tomfoolery in that setting.

[MinionZombie]

No time for tomfoolery? That's the majority of what they do. They attack numerous zombies with sledgehammers, spray soda water in their faces, steal their wallets and jewelry. The gang are already whooping it up when they arrive - they're already doing that on the radio, and as they drive in (firecrackers in the road). Grenades wouldn't be particularly tactical for them - it's a big explosion and lots of fun to throw them about. These are people who steal display cases of gold rings and necklaces, rob the bank, steal mannequins (and nearly a shirt a tie). Sense isn't really in their vocabulary. Despite months on the road raiding, they're still going after shiny things and gold. About the only useful thing they raided was the gun store.

[Moon Knight]

The shirt and tie

[JDP]

No time for tomfoolery? That's the majority of what they do. They attack numerous zombies with sledgehammers, spray soda water in their faces, steal their wallets and jewelry. The gang are already whooping it up when they arrive - they're already doing that on the radio, and as they drive in (firecrackers in the road). Grenades wouldn't be particularly tactical for them - it's a big explosion and lots of fun to throw them about. These are people who steal display cases of gold rings and necklaces, rob the bank, steal mannequins (and nearly a shirt a tie). Sense isn't really in their vocabulary. Despite months on the road raiding, they're still going after shiny things and gold. About the only useful thing they raided was the gun store. What you are referring to happens INSIDE the mall, not OUTSIDE. Once they break in, yes, they want to have fun while looting the place. When they are in the more pressing setting of the parking lot, though, they are not in the mood for fooling around. The priority there is to find a way into the mall. They mean business. All they do there is blow up things and massacre the zombies near the entrances. The behavior you would naturally expect: you need to clear up those potential points of entry into the mall. You said it yourself: these guys have been surviving in this outdoors hostile environment for months. They know what they are doing. Wasting grenades on just "having fun" does not sound like something that people who have been successfully surviving this apocalyptic battlefield for this long would want to do. It is not the same as throwing firecrackers. Firecrackers are for fun, they are just noisemakers. Grenades are potentially useful tools. Big difference. Regarding the money/jewelry: Dawn happens at a time when such things still have value (very much like Land, BTW, and quite unlike Day). Organized society has still not fully collapsed. Peter and Flyboy also cautiously steal money from the bank ("you never know" if it will come handy later on. There was no way for them to surely know that the situation would in fact only get worse, as we see in Day, where money is now worthless, as there is no longer any organized form of government left anywhere and most survivors have gone underground.) It is not surprising, then, that the bikers will also want to loot such things. As long as things have some value, they will steal them.

[MinionZombie]

If they were really so precious about ammo, they wouldn't be spraying bullets around all over the place like mad men. Inside and outside the mall they're firing off rounds like there's an endless supply. Food and Ammo are their most precious resources in their situation, yet the latter they spray all over the place and the former they don't even bother gathering. Once inside the mall they're not 'all business' - hence the custard pie fight, the scattergun style of looting, the vandalism, the blood pressure machine etc etc etc. They're not using the grenades tactically, and Romero likely didn't put that kind of thought into it - the raid on the mall is just unbridled carnage and chaos. Indeed, they're almost using the grenades as if they were firecrackers, just tossing them about. They're all in it for themselves as this very loose band of hoodlums causing havoc. They don't give a shit when one of their own gets gunned down. They're greed and consumer hypnotism at its most vile and unencumbered. There's barely any shred of tactical approach. They scout the location and pick the night (the latter as much for production logistics as any in-story reason), but it's basically 'open door, steal shit, try not to get bit' and nothing else. Tactics and weapons conservation aren't much in their interests. They're still in a land of plenty. By the point the raiders attack, the calendar on the wall in the 'apartment' suggests it's been somewhere around 11 weeks, but let's say three months for ease. Easy pickings for the raiders. Conservation won't be on their minds as they'll have had plenty of, well, plenty at their fingertips.

[JDP]

If they were really so precious about ammo, they wouldn't be spraying bullets around all over the place like mad men. Inside and outside the mall they're firing off rounds like there's an endless supply. Food and Ammo are their most precious resources in their situation, yet the latter they spray all over the place and the former they don't even bother gathering. Once inside the mall they're not 'all business' - hence the custard pie fight, the scattergun style of looting, the vandalism, the blood pressure machine etc etc etc. They're not using the grenades tactically, and Romero likely didn't put that kind of thought into it - the raid on the mall is just unbridled carnage and chaos. Indeed, they're almost using the grenades as if they were firecrackers, just tossing them about. They're all in it for themselves as this very loose band of hoodlums causing havoc. They don't give a shit when one of their own gets gunned down. They're greed and consumer hypnotism at its most vile and unencumbered. There's barely any shred of tactical approach. They scout the location and pick the night (the latter as much for production logistics as any in-story reason), but it's basically 'open door, steal shit, try not to get bit' and nothing else. Tactics and weapons conservation aren't much in their interests. They're still in a land of plenty. By the point the raiders attack, the calendar on the wall in the 'apartment' suggests it's been somewhere around 11 weeks, but let's say three months for ease. Easy pickings for the raiders. Conservation won't be on their minds as they'll have had plenty of, well, plenty at their fingertips. The "spraying" of bullets is mostly because some of them have Tommy Guns. Ever seen gangster movies? That's how they are usually used: to spray bullets all over the place. And they definitely are aware of preserving ammo too, that's why they also use a lot of melee weapons to dispatch the zombies whenever possible: sledgehammers, machetes, swords, halberds, morning stars. When they loot the gun shop, they also take the bows and arrows. Anything they can use as weapons, they steal. Everything shows that these guys would not be wasting either ammo or grenades on just "having fun", especially not in a situation when the priority is something more urgent, like breaking into the place they want to loot. They are well aware of what the situation is. "They've been surviving on the road all through this thing", as Peter says. These guys know what they are doing. And it shows. The handful that get killed during the mall raid was mostly because of Peter gunning them down, not because of the zombies. They know how to handle them. Only a couple of them die because of being too careless around the zombies.

[shootemindehead]

You're trying to assign something to a scene that really isn't there. Romero probably didn't give a toss beyond something looking good for the camera. You're over thinking this.

[JDP]

You're trying to assign something to a scene that really isn't there. Romero probably didn't give a toss beyond something looking good for the camera. You're over thinking this. The scene/sequence is there alright, we are not imagining that they are throwing grenades at areas around the entrances of the mall. It's just that Romero's way of shooting and editing sometimes leave question marks. Like the way he edited the sequence at the docks in the theatrical cut. It makes little sense, yet he appears to have been "OK" with it! But in that case he shot enough footage that it can make more sense when edited differently, as seen in the extended cut.

[shootemindehead]

You misunderstood what I said. You're trying to assign something to a scene that really isn't there. Of course the scene exists, but you're looking for meaning in something that had little meaning beyond looking good on camera.

[JDP]

You misunderstood what I said. You're trying to assign something to a scene that really isn't there. Of course the scene exists, but you're looking for meaning in something that had little meaning beyond looking good on camera. If this was a matter of only looking good on camera, then Romero could have just had the bikers throw the grenades at an empty lot, no further thought necessary. It wouldn't make a difference, would it? As long as we get explosions on camera, everything is fine, right? But that's not what happens. The bikers are using the grenades during the part when they just arrive on the parking lot and are trying to find a way of breaking into the mall. Not before, not after. So, there is obviously some purpose to their actions. It is not just some thoughtless "let's just put some explosions on camera because it looks cool!" My point is that there is some purpose to their action of throwing the grenades. Some here think it was just the bikers "having fun" and "vandalism", which seems extremely unlikely to me considering the context. You want to break into a place that has been locked up and is surrounded by hundreds of hostile encroaching walking cannibal corpses, and you are seriously going to be wasting things like grenades on just "having fun" and thoughtless "vandalism"??? Nope, sorry, I am not convinced at all that this is what is going on here. Those grenades are obviously being employed for a more relevant purpose. Since their main objective at this point is to find a way into the mall, I think the most logical conclusion is that it has to do with that purpose.

[shootemindehead]

I'm not saying that it's completely thoughtless. But you are applying waaaaay too much here. Romero was a pretty loose director. When you're a low budget director, you have to be in many ways. A lot of the time he just, literally, put things on the screen because he thought it would look good or create a compelling scene. The screwdriver zombie, for example, or the pie fight, or the guy taking his blood pressure. Some of his stuff works. Some doesn't. You're trying to apply reasoning to something where there's not that much reasoning to apply. However, the whole point of the biker gang scene (a very 70's trope) is to show mindless destruction. They aren't thinking of anything other than what they can nick. You're talking about people that steal jewellery...for what? It's worthless now. Some guy takes a TV, until his mate says "what are you going to watch on that thing?" Then he mindlessly smashes it to pieces. They parade through the mall on their bikes wrecking the place. And no doubt if they had caught up to Fran, Peter and Stephen, they would have just killed them. These guys are fucking idiots. They're merely on a destructive ride because the world has gone to shit and there's no cops around to stop them.

[JDP]

I'm not saying that it's completely thoughtless. But you are applying waaaaay too much here. Romero was a pretty loose director. When you're a low budget director, you have to be in many ways. A lot of the time he just, literally, put things on the screen because he thought it would look good or create a compelling scene. The screwdriver zombie, for example, or the pie fight, or the guy taking his blood pressure. Some of his stuff works. Some doesn't. You're trying to apply reasoning to something where there's not that much reasoning to apply. However, the whole point of the biker gang scene (a very 70's trope) is to show mindless destruction. They aren't thinking of anything other than what they can nick. You're talking about people that steal jewellery...for what? It's worthless now. Some guy takes a TV, until his mate says "what are you going to watch on that thing?" Then he mindlessly smashes it to pieces. They parade through the mall on their bikes wrecking the place. And no doubt if they had caught up to Fran, Peter and Stephen, they would have just killed them. These guys are fucking idiots. They're merely on a destructive ride because the world has gone to shit and there's no cops around to stop them. All characters in this movie are interested in things that still have value. As pointed out before, Peter and Flyboy also steal money from the bank. Gold, silver & jewels must also still have value, otherwise the bikers would not waste their time with them either. They ought to know more than anyone else what has value or not: they have been surviving "out there" for months. They must know what still can be traded/bartered for other things in what still remains functional of society. The TV thing looks like a comedy gag. In all that excitement and adrenaline rush, that biker just casually "forgets" that the TV stations are not broadcasting anything anymore, until one of his looting buddies reminds him that such things are useless now. Therefore it gets smashed. The raiders do not seem to be interested in the mall folk beyond basically just warn them that their neat little plan of keeping the mall all for themselves is about to get "fucked up real bad" (actually, that was even "nice" of them, to give the mall folk a warning of what's coming their way!) As Peter points out, "they're after the place, they don't care about us." As long as the mall folk stay out of their way, the bikers don't seem to mind them. It was Flyboy who actually lost his cool there and ended up causing a war between both groups. The bikers were minding their own business until they got shot at first, not the other way around.

[MinionZombie]

Peter and Stephen do indeed steal some money and get blinged up a bit with new clothes etc, but they're also feathering their nest up there in the converted storage room. They also do that only about 4 weeks into the ZA, whereas when the bikers come along we're up to 12 weeks into the ZA and the TV hasn't been broadcasting for several days. "My God, what have we done to ourselves?" says Fran, and they all take a step back and reset their sights - there's hope for them, but sadly the bikers just so happen to be there right at the wrong time for our little group of survivors, who have kinda 'learned their lesson'. The bikers are still acting like it's the beginning. When our group first get to the mall Fran says how they're all "hypnotised" by the place, but towards the end of the film the spell is breaking. The bikers, on the other hand, are well and truly still under the spell and it's all about greed and plenty and take-take-take, their minds still very much in the pre-ZA world, snatching up all the stuff they'd wished they could pillage with impunity in the old world. Shoot - indeed, lots of stuff thrown in. Although the screwdriver zombie did have a specific purpose in itself - to cover a continuity error (hence why the top tied around Roger's waist gets trapped in the zombie's grip). I loved hearing that story. An iconic scene that almost never happened and was improvised and stuffed into the schedule ... in fact, considering how much stuff they were kinda 'free styling' as they shot, it's amazing they got as much as they did. That still boggles my mind, just how much footage they got as well as the kind of footage they got - there's so much action and gunfire and stunts and effects and, yes, even explosions, in that final portion. The sheer volume of set-ups is crazy to think about.

[shootemindehead]

All characters in this movie are interested in things that still have value. As pointed out before, Peter and Flyboy also steal money from the bank. Gold, silver & jewels must also still have value, otherwise the bikers would not waste their time with them either. They ought to know more than anyone else what has value or not: they have been surviving "out there" for months. They must know what still can be traded/bartered for other things in what still remains functional of society. The TV thing looks like a comedy gag. In all that excitement and adrenaline rush, that biker just casually "forgets" that the TV stations are not broadcasting anything anymore, until one of his looting buddies reminds him that such things are useless now. Therefore it gets smashed. The raiders do not seem to be interested in the mall folk beyond basically just warn them that their neat little plan of keeping the mall all for themselves is about to get "fucked up real bad" (actually, that was even "nice" of them, to give the mall folk a warning of what's coming their way!) As Peter points out, "they're after the place, they don't care about us." As long as the mall folk stay out of their way, the bikers don't seem to mind them. It was Flyboy who actually lost his cool there and ended up causing a war between both groups. The bikers were minding their own business until they got shot at first, not the other way around. There's a huge difference you're ignoring though, in that the heroes of the piece use their time relatively constructively to create a stronghold to protect themselves and each other, despite the fact that they pocketed a few bob and tarted themselves up for a while. In contrast the biker gang (who are designed as the enemies of the piece) are only interested in fucking things up. And sure, Peter says "they're after the place, they don't care about us", but that doesn't mean that the biker gang wouldn't have been anything but completely hostile to Stephen, Peter and especially Fran if their paths had crossed, irrespective of Stephen losing his cool. Their antagonistic intent is clearly laid out by Romero from the beginning. They aren't whoops misunderstood nice guys. They're clearly the villains of the piece. Shoot - indeed, lots of stuff thrown in. Although the screwdriver zombie did have a specific purpose in itself - to cover a continuity error (hence why the top tied around Roger's waist gets trapped in the zombie's grip). I loved hearing that story. An iconic scene that almost never happened and was improvised and stuffed into the schedule ... in fact, considering how much stuff they were kinda 'free styling' as they shot, it's amazing they got as much as they did. That still boggles my mind, just how much footage they got as well as the kind of footage they got - there's so much action and gunfire and stunts and effects and, yes, even explosions, in that final portion. The sheer volume of set-ups is crazy to think about. Sure, screwdriver guy acts as a salve for a continuity error as well as an ad hoc cool looking gag. But the point is Romero could be very loose when he was filming and tended to go along with on the spur of the moment ideas and what he thought looked cool or funny at the time. Hence that awful pie fight scene, which Christine always hated and I'm in full agreement with her. I'm personally not that big on the screwdriver zombie either. The way he just stands there like a mannequin and then lunges with cat like agility at Roger just always felt wrong to me. But he clearly illustrates Romero's off the cuff approach that he had at times. It's simply a gag that looked good in the moment and you're not really meant to mull these things over 40+ years after the fact.