TWD 8x09 "Honor" episode discussion... **SPOILERS**

[Moon Knight]

They aren’t killing Rick. At least not anytime soon. Comic readers pretty much have that image of Rick bleeding figured out. I don’t want anyone immune. That’s some Zombie Nation stuff right there.

[MinionZombie]

As far as immunity - if they ever do that, it'd make most sense to do it at the very end of the show's run as part of a plot. The virus begins to retreat, there will be no more new walkers, and mankind can move forward with confidence. However, whether they do it at all is a whole other argument. If you're going to work the idea of immunity in then you have to do it wholeheartedly as an entire plotline, you can't just cram it in with Carl - which would also get in the way of a whole bunch of other story being told, as well as the main reason that Carl is being killed off from a thematic perspective (it is also intended to help cover up a massive plot hole in the comics). I've also been pondering the death of Carl from another perspective. The comics are still going and Kirkman keeps going on about doing it for hundreds more issues (please, don't, some things have to end and are better not being dragged out unnecessarily), but the show can't possibly linger on that long. The brazen boasts of "let's do 20 seasons" or whatever is just silly bluster, few shows can last that long, it's just not realistic. So - with Carl's death being a major departure from the comics, this presents an opportunity to take the best elements of the post-AOW comics (which has been, to be honest, a rather hit-and-miss period of the comics) and make something fresher and, hopefully, better with an eye on wrapping the whole thing up. Surely the show is nearer to its end than its beginning, that's just how these things go, many of the greatest shows don't get beyond five or six seasons, so to be going into a ninth is quite a feat. Can you really see it going beyond, say, 12 seasons reasonably? Divergence now could be a good opportunity for the show to act more independently of the comics, cherry-picking the best bits of what's to come, and reworking things to suit itself. Even Game of Thrones has split from the books (albeit because it overtook GRRM), and it's doing well. JDP - there's as much reason to tell Henry the name and description of the exact man who killed his brother as to not tell him. They didn't tell him, end of, and in-so-doing it works better from a storytelling perspective as Henry is just a child and is reacting immaturely. He's blaming any Saviour, or the Saviours in general, but it was the lanky-haired scumbag who specifically did the deed, yet Henry wants any Saviour blood ... but it won't bring him anything good. Yeah, good material, while a bit long, his goodbye scenes really choked me up a bit. Loved the opening montage. - - - Updated - - - MZ- that first meme 1) Aye, that opening montage was excellent - like a 'stages of acceptance' thing, but it also illustrates what a hero Carl had turned into. The bite was a cruel twist of fate in this world and something that could happen to anyone (good for Carl to make that abundantly clear to Rick who, in his shock and grief, was blaming the Saviours for it), but Rick did a stand up job as a father and brought Carl back from the brink of becoming something terrible and made a good man out of him. Powerful stuff and important going forward. 2) Cheers, hehe. Ever since Rick and The Gang rocked up it's been one thing after another for Alexandria. They aren’t killing Rick. At least not anytime soon. Comic readers pretty much have that image of Rick bleeding figured out. Hmmm, I'm gonna have to dip back into the comics now...

[Neil]

Well, I enjoyed most of that episode. Fingers crossed the next one builds on it!

[JDP]

It might solve the problem of people returning as zombies, but it sure won't solve the little problem of the millions (possibly billions?) already walking around. No, but it means that the zombies, no matter how many are there around, will have their days numbered. If a vaccine/cure is developed by using the immune person/s, there won't be any more dying people increasing the zombie ranks. Then it is a matter of destroying all the ones remaining around. It is a problem that future generations would have to finish solving, but the present generation is the one that made the basis for the eventual destruction of the zombies possible by finding immune people. - - - Updated - - - As far as immunity - if they ever do that, it'd make most sense to do it at the very end of the show's run as part of a plot. The virus begins to retreat, there will be no more new walkers, and mankind can move forward with confidence. However, whether they do it at all is a whole other argument. If you're going to work the idea of immunity in then you have to do it wholeheartedly as an entire plotline, you can't just cram it in with Carl - which would also get in the way of a whole bunch of other story being told, as well as the main reason that Carl is being killed off from a thematic perspective (it is also intended to help cover up a massive plot hole in the comics). Finding any immune person would only be the beginning of the final chapter in the saga, not exactly the very end of it. Now you also have to gather people knowledgeable in medicine/biology/genetics who can develop the cure for the rest of mankind. The problem itself won't go away just by finding the immune person/s, some work still has to be done after to take advantage of this finding. And of course, the immune person/s would have to be most jealously guarded from harm, as he/she/they carry within himself/herself/themselves the potential solution to the whole mess. JDP - there's as much reason to tell Henry the name and description of the exact man who killed his brother as to not tell him. They didn't tell him, end of, and in-so-doing it works better from a storytelling perspective as Henry is just a child and is reacting immaturely. He's blaming any Saviour, or the Saviours in general, but it was the lanky-haired scumbag who specifically did the deed, yet Henry wants any Saviour blood ... but it won't bring him anything good. Considering that they want to get away from the "kill them all!" approach, it makes more sense that they would inform the kid about it, rather than let him go around on a rampage killing any Savior in sight. Besides, the kid might get himself killed by trying such a stunt. He got lucky that Gavin was unarmed and with his back turned on him. Once again, the more reason to inform him that the man who is in fact responsible for his brother's death is actually already a prisoner. No need for him to go around trying to kill any Savior in sight.

[beat_truck]

Well, if we are thinking that far into it, if there was an immune person, and a cure/vaccine was created by people who basically all at this point lack the medical expertise and resources to work with, it would still be nearly impossible to make enough of it and distribute it to all of the pockets of survivors in the world. And, even if everyone was cured to where they wouldn't return as a zombie from a bite any other cause of death, it would still be nearly impossible for the relatively few survivors to destroy a world full of zombies that will still kill you and eat you. The survivors would be better off just focusing on rebuilding and surviving the best they can while the zombies just decompose and aren't a threat anymore. Lots of IFs involved, aren't there. Only my opinion of course.

[JDP]

Well, if we are thinking that far into it, if there was an immune person, and a cure/vaccine was created by people who basically all at this point lack the medical expertise and resources to work with, it would still be nearly impossible to make enough of it and distribute it to all of the pockets of survivors in the world. And, even if everyone was cured to where they wouldn't return as a zombie from a bite any other cause of death, it would still be nearly impossible for the relatively few survivors to destroy a world full of zombies that will still kill you and eat you. The survivors would be better off just focusing on rebuilding and surviving the best they can while the zombies just decompose and aren't a threat anymore. Lots of IFs involved, aren't there. Only my opinion of course. If almost everyone who dies for whatever causes comes back, that will keep on replenishing their ranks. Cut that source of "supply" and the zombies have their days numbered. It doesn't matter whether it's just a few weeks or many years, but sooner or later they will be gone, even if the humans don't go around destroying all the remaining ones they can find, eventually they will decay and self-destroy. As for people with the required knowledge to come up with a cure: there still are doctors around who have survived as well, so it would not be surprising if there are people still alive competent enough to look into the matter and try to come up with a solution. It's just a matter of going around looking for as many other survivors as possible and finding what savvy people they have among their ranks who can help in this matter. Sooner or later you are bound to find someone who can.

[beat_truck]

As for people with the required knowledge to come up with a cure: there still are doctors around who have survived as well, so it would not be surprising if there are people still alive competent enough to look into the matter and try to come up with a solution. It's just a matter of going around looking for as many other survivors as possible and finding what savvy people they have among their ranks who can help in this matter. Sooner or later you are bound to find someone who can. Even if they did happen to find someone with the know how, which is HIGHLY unlikely, the rest still remains true. There probably aren't any functional medical labs several years into the zombie apocalypse. Making a zombie vaccine/cure isn't quite as simple as Eugene reloading some spent ammo.

[facestabber]

Even if they did happen to find someone with the know how, which is HIGHLY unlikely, the rest still remains true. There probably aren't any functional medical labs several years into the zombie apocalypse. Making a zombie vaccine/cure isn't quite as simple as Eugene reloading some spent ammo. I understand what JDP is getting at. Immunity is a bare bones beginning to the potential rebuild of the human race. It wouldn't be easy. It won't happen rapidly. It provides hope in a world that has appeared mostly hopeless. Rick Grimes doesn't expect to see a functioning government, communications and the New York stock exchange in his life time. But starting new and rebuilding would seem more attainable if the initial cause could have a cure.

[MinionZombie]

I understand what JDP is getting at. Immunity is a bare bones beginning to the potential rebuild of the human race. It wouldn't be easy. It won't happen rapidly. It provides hope in a world that has appeared mostly hopeless. Rick Grimes doesn't expect to see a functioning government, communications and the New York stock exchange in his life time. But starting new and rebuilding would seem more attainable if the initial cause could have a cure. Either TWD would introduce that as a glimmer of hope at the end of the show's run (like a hint at what's to come for humanity), or they'd need to write a whole season where we see a return to some sort of civilisation that we recognise - re-instatement of government, services, laws etc - as if it's the re-birth of America as a nation, perhaps even getting into contact with other nations around the globe, and then somehow leaving us with this new world that's being constructed. Ultimately, though, the show began with Rick Grimes and it needs to end, somehow, with Rick Grimes - bookended with Grimes.

[Moon Knight]

Ultimately, though, the show began with Rick Grimes and it needs to end, somehow, with Rick Grimes - bookended with Grimes. This right here. Also, concerning Bleeding Rick. This is pulled from the source material during All Out War. Only read below if you have already read "All Out War" in the comics. SPOILERS!   Rick is shot with a bolt that he thinks is contaminated with walker guts. Those who are also shot and stabbed with contaminated weapons begin to slowly die around Rick; he thinks he's going to die too. However, Dwight spares Rick as Rick comes to realize he's safe from infection. I believe this scene of Rick hurt, bleeding by the tree comes from this direct moment from the books. I also believe while Carl is the one that told Rick about their happy future, it's Rick's own version we see while Rick thinks he's dying. Just my thoughts on it.

[MinionZombie]

Ah, yes, thanks for the reminder Moon! I'd forgotten about that bit. As for the visions and who's having them - they were Carl's, but I believe in the final sequence of the episode the dream becomes Rick's. He takes it on board and he's moving forward with that hope for the future.

[Moon Knight]

Ah, yes, thanks for the reminder Moon! I'd forgotten about that bit. As for the visions and who's having them - they were Carl's, but I believe in the final sequence of the episode the dream becomes Rick's. He takes it on board and he's moving forward with that hope for the future. Yeah, that makes sense. So, it's safe to assume Eugene is coming back to team Rick?

[MinionZombie]

Yeah, that makes sense. So, it's safe to assume Eugene is coming back to team Rick? I'd hope so. I want to see Eugene resurrect himself - and it'd make sense with mercy prevailing over wrath, and all. Albeit in a dream sequence, it was nice to see him not being cowardly or kowtowed.

[Neil]

I must admit all the flash backs for grey old Rick etc did resolve quite nicely. ie: It's was simply Carl's visions of an ideal peaceful outcome etc.

[Moon Knight]

I must admit all the flash backs for grey old Rick etc did resolve quite nicely. ie: It's was simply Carl's visions of an ideal peaceful outcome etc. I agree! Everything came together quite well.