Meathook Trio Photo

[Trin]

Well, I'd have to contest that statement. From the television reports they watched Ben knew exactly who the search and destroy squads consisted of and that they were indeed making their way through the area. Also, there were multiple gunshots and dog barks in rapid succession which would indicate that there was more than one man and one dog causing it. So let's assume all that is true. Prior to leaving the cellar he knew it was a rescue party. He knew it was rednecks. He knew they were anti-black. Let's further assume that he was afraid of the rednecks because he was a black man, as you've hypothesized. Why did he come out at all? Why did he put himself in danger by exposing his head? Why didn't he immediately head to the back door and try to flee the opposite direction?

[triste realtà]

This thread has me thinking there's an anti-city theme to the dead movies. The city folk are locked inside bickering ("What have we done to ourselves?"), waiting for someone to come save them, while the country folk are taking care of business or surviving on the road like the Pagans. Then again the lead in Night was written for a trucker, unless it was changed during filming. I should probably read the script on the DVD to see. When I see the ending of Night, it's like peace at last and all the bickering is finally over. Ghouls ain't gonna drag themselves into a big pile to be burnt, you know.

[Debbieangel]

So let's assume all that is true. Prior to leaving the cellar he knew it was a rescue party. He knew it was rednecks. He knew they were anti-black. Let's further assume that he was afraid of the rednecks because he was a black man, as you've hypothesized. Why did he come out at all? Why did he put himself in danger by exposing his head? Why didn't he immediately head to the back door and try to flee the opposite direction? There is my argument..I said about Ben being in shock. I still stand by that why would he come out of the cellar and go near the window like that especially with all the shooting going on outside? Another thing,dont you think all that racist crap would go out the window I mean really they are fighting for their lives. Why would they care if a person was black/white/Latino/Asian etc...? Any living person would be hopefully an ally? As for the rednecks they weren't rednecks. They were just people trying to cope with the zombies not out having a good time. edit: by racist crap I am meaning"racist" hatred would be gone.

[clanglee]

This is a case of the over-analyzation of GAR's movies. I am sure that scene was shot in all innocence with NO attempt at a racial statement. But this could be read into the scene, sure. I could also imagine that it is a statement about the real and present dangers of agorophobia. Ben was scared to go outside, and so got shot. Or paronoia. . Ben believed the men were not to be trusted and therefore, in his caution, caused his own demise. More likely the scene was meant as shot. Ben heard some noises outside, but not upstairs. He figured it was safe enough to check out. Cautiosly opened the door and crept to the window to have a look outside. (probably to make sure that the house wasn't still surrounded by zombies) When all of a sudden . . . POW. . . .dead.

[MaximusIncredulous]

...probably to make sure that the house wasn't still surrounded by zombies... I think that's the whole reason for his slow movements in the house. Just a few hours before the house was filled with living dead. Ben probably felt that a few may have lingered behind and didn't want to run smack dab into a bunch of them with no ammo.

[MoonSylver]

This is a case of the over-analyzation of GAR's movies. I am sure that scene was shot in all innocence with NO attempt at a racial statement. But this could be read into the scene, sure. I could also imagine that it is a statement about the real and present dangers of agorophobia. Ben was scared to go outside, and so got shot. Or paronoia. . Ben believed the men were not to be trusted and therefore, in his caution, caused his own demise. More likely the scene was meant as shot. Ben heard some noises outside, but not upstairs. He figured it was safe enough to check out. Cautiosly opened the door and crept to the window to have a look outside. (probably to make sure that the house wasn't still surrounded by zombies) When all of a sudden . . . POW. . . .dead. Yep, IIRC GAR had said the rationale behind the ending was to show the kind of accidents that would happen, when a heavily armed amateur posse is roaming the country side blasting everything that moves. What's cool though is that you CAN read that subtext into it & it works just fine. That's one of the things I LOVE about NOTLD is there is just so much subtext in the air that it just permeates the whole film. The era, the cast, everything. So much that wasn't intentionally written in, but it's just there, & it works.

[Trin]

More likely the scene was meant as shot. Ben heard some noises outside, but not upstairs. He figured it was safe enough to check out. Cautiosly opened the door and crept to the window to have a look outside. (probably to make sure that the house wasn't still surrounded by zombies) When all of a sudden . . . POW. . . .dead. That's my opinion as well, although I do see the validity of all the opinions expressed so far. When I first saw Night (shortly before Dawn came out) I was impressed that GAR chose to have the mixed race group operate without any overt overtones of race. Cooper was the equivalent of Archie Bunker at the time, yet the disagreements between Ben and Cooper always remained within the context of the situation. GAR also avoided racial stereotypes at a time when (as Darth's original post points out) the national opinion was still in question. Ben was clean cut, well dressed, articulate, resourceful, and composed. All in all a very intelligent movie.

[darth los]

Yep, IIRC GAR had said the rationale behind the ending was to show the kind of accidents that would happen, when a heavily armed amateur posse is roaming the country side blasting everything that moves. What's cool though is that you CAN read that subtext into it & it works just fine. That's one of the things I LOVE about NOTLD is there is just so much subtext in the air that it just permeates the whole film. The era, the cast, everything. So much that wasn't intentionally written in, but it's just there, & it works. I think the same can be said about all of GAR'S dead films. IMO, it's not overanalyzing it because the very nature of the man's film making style lends his films/scenes to be interpreted in a myriad of different ways. For example, I posted a thread about the "police" at the dock that the foursome encounted wile "running". It went on for pages about exactly who Joe Pilato and company actually were and what their intentions were. That scene was interpreted atleast 5 different ways by the people who posted. Or it could have been as straight forward as what we saw in the scene. In either case it's fun to speculate, which as all we really can do. What can I say, it is "Dead Discussion" you know. Who else are we gonna talk about this stuff with anyway? If fellow members are going to bust our chops for this stuff imagine what other poeple would do. (I'm sure we all have stories)

[Yojimbo]

I'm sensitive to the racist back and forth between Cooper and Ben. Being a minority myself, I am usually sensitive to racial overtones in film - sometimes to the point of being what some (like Khardis, miss that guy) would have characterized as oversensitive. I do recall that there was a "audiobook" version of NOLD that came out years ago which pissed me off specifically because they introduced racism into Cooper's character - something that I don't believe was in the original film and therefore I felt that it was a diservice to the character of Cooper. Try as I might, I cannot recall any racist overtones between Cooper and Ben. I had always thought that the problem between Cooper and Ben was a simple matter of two dudes competing for the same space and authority over the group and was not racially based. Admittedly, it's been a few months since I last viewed my NOLD 68 DVD, so maybe I missed something there, but could you please point out what you were referring to? Interesting comments here on this thread, BTW. Zombie Heads always impress me with the content of their posts!

[darth los]

Being a minority myself, I am usually sensitive to racial overtones in film - sometimes to the point of being what some (like Khardis, miss that guy) would have characterized as oversensitive. I do recall that there was a "audiobook" version of NOLD that came out years ago which pissed me off specifically because they introduced racism into Cooper's character - something that I don't believe was in the original film and therefore I felt that it was a diservice to the character of Cooper. Try as I might, I cannot recall any racist overtones between Cooper and Ben. I had always thought that the problem between Cooper and Ben was a simple matter of two dudes competing for the same space and authority over the group and was not racially based. Admittedly, it's been a few months since I last viewed my NOLD 68 DVD, so maybe I missed something there, but could you please point out what you were referring to? Interesting comments here on this thread, BTW. Zombie Heads always impress me with the content of their posts! You're right my friend, everything that I'm building a case on is based on UNDERTONES. There was never anything overt in the film. (Thank Goodness) As usual with the dead films it's open to interpretation. However, it is interesting to me the real life issues that come in in discussing these films, which imo, just adds to GAR'S greatness. I mean how many filmakers can produce works that spur debate and discussion for literally years on end? ( Just ask Philly) Also when I mentioned being sensitive to racial topics it was all just to say that it is indeed one way that the dynamic between cooper, Ben and rednecks could have been interpreted. And I must say that up until this point no one can really deny that it is a possibility. Yeah, adding that book that you're referring to, if they really did add a racist element really did the story an injustice. The genius of the film(s) is that they can be whatever you want them to be.

[clanglee]

Darth, I was not trying to bust your chops at all. I agree that GAR's movies leave a lot open to interperatation, but really, all movies do. . or many anyways. I just personally believe that in the case of night, the intent was just what is seen. Sometime a spade is just a spade (card reference, not racist) These movies of George's do allow our imaginations to go wild and read new things into each watching. Which is great, but also dangerous, because IMO that kind of subtext searching is what is turning George away from writing and directing a good movie and turning him towards making the "subtext" laden average material that we are getting nowadays from him. Just sort of a personal spur for me. . .sorry.

[darth los]

Darth, I was not trying to bust your chops at all. I agree that GAR's movies leave a lot open to interperatation, but really, all movies do. . or many anyways. I just personally believe that in the case of night, the intent was just what is seen. Sometime a spade is just a spade (card reference, not racist) These movies of George's do allow our imaginations to go wild and read new things into each watching. Which is great, but also dangerous, because IMO that kind of subtext searching is what is turning George away from writing and directing a good movie and turning him towards making the "subtext" laden average material that we are getting nowadays from him. Just sort of a personal spur for me. . .sorry. I think that's just the man's style. He has never been too particular about details or backstory in his dead films. Oh yeah, he might throw a fun fact out there about a character or two now and then but the bulk of a particular character's life story is never touched upon. It's like an abstract peice of art. Different pairs of eyes are going to interpret it differently as is the case here. And there is really no wrong answer because the trilogy was not so heavy handed delivering the respective messages GAR wanted as we saw in Land and Diary. Ever wonder why we don't speculate nearly as much on those two films? Because very little is left open for interpretation and thhus leaves little room to pick them apart. Imo, that leaves very little replay value.

[AcesandEights]

You're right my friend, everything that I'm building a case on is based on UNDERTONES. There was never anything overt in the film. (Thank Goodness) Ok, so if you're saying that there is a subtext there, whether intentional or not, that lends itself to people viewing race as a relevant issue at various points of the film, then I agree with you. I think given the time the film was made and the presence of certain factors (circumstances and actions characters are driven to etc.) that it's a completely fair statement. After all, they weren't making this movie in a vacuum.

[darth los]

Ok, so if you're saying that there is a subtext there, whether intentional or not, that lends itself to people viewing race as a relevant issue at various points of the film, then I agree with you. I think given the time the film was made and the presence of certain factors (circumstances and actions characters are driven to etc.) that it's a completely fair statement. After all, they weren't making this movie in a vacuum. Exactly. We may not feel it today, but at the time there were no bigger issues than Race/Vietnam. I think we would be negligent as students of film/history to ignore that. (I'm not saying that we are ) Not that there was anything racial there but even if it wasn't said it might have been just under the surface. No one here thinks that Cooper would have been embarassed to have Ben Boss him around in front of everyone, including his wife and kids? Or perhaps the resistance Cooper had to every idea that ben had was because it was coming from a black man? Let's not forget Ben says it from the beginning. "You can be boss down there, i'm Boss up here. You could even take it a step further and question Cooper's motivation for wanting to take Barbara down stairs with him. He obviously knew she and Ben had met and banded together. Think about it. Did Cooper seem that altruistic to you? He didn't even seem to care about his family much (although the stress from the current situation could have made him act abnormally) yet he was so concerned about this woman now, yet minutes earlier he heard her screaming for help and would have let her get devoured. What's the difference? He knew that she was up there with a black man. Now to be clear I don't think that it's very likely that this was the case. But this is just to illustrate that there can be different interpretations. It's kind of like some people's religion. No matter how ridiculous or far fetched it may sound there still the hurdle of proving them wrong, which is next to impossible, which is the case here. Also, whether race is a relevant issue depends on the person watching the scene. It depends on the life experiences that they've had. If you've repeatedly been the victim of racism then you're going tose life through that prism.

[clanglee]

I respect your vision and interpertation of the movie. It is your right. Not the intent of the film I believe, but as you said, it is open to interpretation. I would be more willing to see that if the actors attempted to convey ANY kind of racial tension or even awareness.