In Defense Of George A. Romero. (long read)

[ZombieNihlist]

Hey, ZombieNihlist, welcome to the forums. I think you threw out some good opinions and they are very well stated. I do, however, disagree with much of it. In most cases the people around here are willing to overlook quite a bit in an otherwise good zombie movie. We point out the plausibility problems (cause that's how we are), over-analyze them (again, that's us), but in the end don't let them rule our overall enjoyment. However in the case of Land there are several plausibility questions that Land forces you to accept or the whole plot structure fails. If money isn't valuable outside the Green then Cholo doesn't hold the city for ransom. If zombies cannot walk across the bottom of the river then the zombies don't get into the city. If zombies cannot spontaneously become intelligent then there's no Big Daddy and - heck, I don't know what happens then. The point is that these aren't minor niggles on the periphery of an otherwise great story. They're major plot points right there in the thick of the story. Dawn had some implausibility, sure. All the Dead movies do to some extent. A lot of it has been discussed at length here. But in the trilogy the main plot points were always sound. No one sat in the theater scratching their heads, or worse, shouting at the screen. I don't think anyone is asking or expecting Romero to be better than his former best. I think what Romero fans are hoping for is a movie that fits into the range of quality and enjoyment of the former trilogy. Since all the polls show that Land and Diary heavily favor the #4 & #5 spots on people's favorite Dead movie rankings I think it's fair to say that in general people aren't as satisfied with the recent ventures as they could be. That, sadly, is something that Romero shares with the likes of Lucas and Spielberg. But it is all opinion, as you say, and I respect that you can ignore the plausibility issues and enjoy the movies. There are times I wish I could turn off that aspect of my nitpicking personality!! I'm not trying to be condecnding so sorry if I offended everyone. I'm not trying to be a fanboy apologist either. I admit that Land and Diary are my least favorites but that is my taste. On a techincal and academic level they are sound enough to be in the same league as his other work abiet under the Dawn and Day. With the money thing is was mentioned that there were satalite outposts under Koffman's control so it would make sense that money would work there. I think that there was more to it than that. Cholo wanted power. That money represented power to him not wealth. After trying to escape the lower class but being refused that money was a way of attempting to compensate for his entrapment as the underclass. He wanted what Koffman had. And money was the closest thing to that he could achieve. In the end people were using money because it was what they were used to. Money burns and they were just ignoring the problem trying to act like everything was fine when in this world such behaivor would be useless. That was the whole point.

[darth los]

I'm not trying to be condecnding so sorry if I offended everyone. I'm not trying to be a fanboy apologist either. I admit that Land and Diary are my least favorites but that is my taste. On a techincal and academic level they are sound enough to be in the same league as his other work abiet under the Dawn and Day. With the money thing is was mentioned that there were satalite outposts under Koffman's control so it would make sense that money would work there. I think that there was more to it than that. Cholo wanted power. That money represented power to him not wealth. After trying to escape the lower class but being refused that money was a way of attempting to compensate for his entrapment as the underclass. He wanted what Koffman had. And money was the closest thing to that he could achieve. In the end people were using money because it was what they were used to. Money burns and they were just ignoring the problem trying to act like everything was fine when in this world such behaivor would be useless. That was the whole point. Welcome to the boards. So, by that you mean that both land and diary are technically and academically superior to night!?! I just want to get that straight before i continue. I await your response. Regarding land, it WAS indeed intended to be an epic film. You need look no further than many of the elements of Day of the DEAd's original script that made their way into land and diary. Do the phrases Intelligent ghoulsand islands sound familiar to anyone? Day was intended to be an epic on a much grander scale than dawn was. I think it haunted him for 20 years that he really couldn't make the film he wanted to and then gave us land. Unfortunately, as was stated in other thread, "The direction of the series", in paricular, there are numerous reason why, on a fundamental level, it just doesn't work imo. I would still love it if that original script were made though. Maybe he should focus his efforts on that.

[ZombieNihlist]

no i forgot to mention night. I meant the orginal trilogy.

[Trin]

With the money thing is was mentioned that there were satalite outposts under Koffman's control so it would make sense that money would work there. I think that there was more to it than that. Cholo wanted power. That money represented power to him not wealth. After trying to escape the lower class but being refused that money was a way of attempting to compensate for his entrapment as the underclass. He wanted what Koffman had. And money was the closest thing to that he could achieve. In the end people were using money because it was what they were used to. Money burns and they were just ignoring the problem trying to act like everything was fine when in this world such behaivor would be useless. That was the whole point. See, here's my problem. Everyone knows that Cholo can't do a darned thing with that money. He can't spend it in Kaufman controlled satellite outposts, or Cleveland (which they haven't heard from in a while), and certainly not in the Green. It won't translate into power anywhere. It won't even really hurt Kaufman to lose it. But in light of the social commentary it DOES make sense. I agree with that. Cholo *did* want the money because he equated it with power. They *were* just ignoring the problem. I agree that that was the whole point. My problem then becomes this... I think the social commentary is itself implausible. It's just ridiculous to think that their little society evolved without anyone (even Kaufman) ever realizing money was not where the real power was. So if it works for you I'm glad for you. Not sarcastic or anything - I really thinks that's good. For me, the implausibility in the plot walks hand in hand with the implausbility in the message, and I find that hard to suspend as I'm suspending my disbelief.

[ZombieNihlist]

I believe that if Romero would remake Day with his orginal vison it would be the perfect way to put closure on the series. The main problem. How to find the right actors for Bub and Capt. Rhodes. If that isn't done right a major part of the series would be lost. See, here's my problem. Everyone knows that Cholo can't do a darned thing with that money. He can't spend it in Kaufman controlled satellite outposts, or Cleveland (which they haven't heard from in a while), and certainly not in the Green. It won't translate into power anywhere. It won't even really hurt Kaufman to lose it. But in light of the social commentary it DOES make sense. I agree with that. Cholo *did* want the money because he equated it with power. They *were* just ignoring the problem. I agree that that was the whole point. My problem then becomes this... I think the social commentary is itself implausible. It's just ridiculous to think that their little society evolved without anyone (even Kaufman) ever realizing money was not where the real power was. So if it works for you I'm glad for you. Not sarcastic or anything - I really thinks that's good. For me, the implausibility in the plot walks hand in hand with the implausbility in the message, and I find that hard to suspend as I'm suspending my disbelief. But cholo wasn't thinking clearly. The whole thing happened in a matter of hours. He was vengefull and wanted revenge on Kaufman. If this was a plan of his for a while his stupidity would be unfounded. As for the citizens the money was a security blanket. It was how society devided its ruling class from the servants. In a society that emerged from one freshly destroyed its somewhat possible that money would be used for explotation and trade. However the more likely scenario would be money slowly replaced by trade or bartering as society fell or become more prominent as it recovered. If credit cards were all you knew what would you use and be more comfortable with? Money or physical goods?

[Thorn]

What is funny about money is it is just paper now and yet it has "value" because we as a people agree that it has value. That you can work, give someone your time and skill and in return you will be rewarded with "money" and then someone else will accept that paper and in return give you something else for it. This boils down to barter just by third party then right? I give you this, you give me that. It doesn't matter if it is beads, blankets, and booze in the case of the settlers trading with the natives for land in the United States of America. Or if you are trading paper. It has value because we believe it does, because we support the system. If in this case a pocket of the living continued to use paper money for whatever reason... perhaps because they believed the world was going to return to sanity at some point, or that perhaps SOMEWHERE in the world life was normal and money still had value. I mean in a bad situation a lot of us still hope for the best, and some people plan for the best. Others hedge their bets and accept reality but want to cover all the angles. "The world likely is gone and will never be the same but I am going to make sure if I am wrong that I have a big bag of money". I also like what was said about Cholo just trying to take power for himself, or what was as close to it in his mind as possible. That rings true to me. Maybe look at it this way in that movie some people wanted to just run, just get away. Get North because in their mind maybe things were better there. Maybe there was something better. Is it likely? I can not really say but I doubt it. But if you put yourself in the film, and try to think like someone living in that world I might NEED to believe that. By the same token someone else might need to believe that money, and therefore normal life had value somewhere. At the end of the day it still boils down to your opinions. You either do, or do not like the films no matter what the reason. You either are or are not fond of the direction and results of Mr. Romero himself over the past 50 years. Just my two cents. (if the dead were to walk would my two cents be worth less than they are now?)

[Trin]

But cholo wasn't thinking clearly. The whole thing happened in a matter of hours. He was vengefull and wanted revenge on Kaufman. If this was a plan of his for a while his stupidity would be unfounded. I get what you're saying but I think it goes deeper than that. Cholo may have acted without thinking clearly but that doesn't explain things. Why did Kaufman pack bags of money to flee the Green? Why did the board member who caught him red-handed seem aghast that Kaufman was taking the money? It was taken as matter-of-fact that whoever held the paper money held the power over the Green. No one in the movie ever questioned what would happen if he got the money. If GAR were merely painting Cholo as ignorant and impulsive I could get over it. It'd be stupid and uninteresting, but plausible. Brass tacks - Dawn's social commentary paints people as overly into consumerism. I can relate to that. Who wouldn't want to be left in a mall with everything yours? I would've acted the same way they did after securing the mall. Land's social commentary paints people as stupid, set in their ways, and unable to recognize the changing needs of survival. So much so that they'd starve to death rather than part with their money. I cannot relate to that. Would anyone here actually do what Cholo did?

[DubiousComforts]

Brass tacks - Dawn's social commentary paints people as overly into consumerism. I can relate to that. Land's social commentary paints people as stupid, set in their ways, and unable to recognize the changing needs of survival. So much so that they'd starve to death rather than part with their money. I cannot relate to that. Well, now that you mention it, DAWN's commentary also "paints people as stupid, set in their ways, and unable to recognize the changing needs of survival." The television, the police raid on the tenement, the "redneck" scene and the biker raid in particular all support this viewpoint. You have to admit that Romero is consistent in his commentary.

[Danny]

ive said it before and ill say it again. on the whole humans are a stupid, greedy species that fear change and crave comfort and familiarity above all things. the pretense of using currency to still barter was an attempt to keep a power structure i believe, sometimes people will look for anyone to follow in a desperate situation if they lack confidence in themselves, but i also think it was holding on in the hopes that easy life we all enjoy would one day return.

[lullubelle]

ive said it before and ill say it again. on the whole humans are a stupid, greedy species that fear change and crave comfort and familiarity above all things. the pretense of using currency to still barter was an attempt to keep a power structure i believe, sometimes people will look for anyone to follow in a desperate situation if they lack confidence in themselves, but i also think it was holding on in the hopes that easy life we all enjoy would one day return. you know hellsing, you got a point, people in general are acustom to things being a certain way and when change comes they (we) try to mantain what we are used just to keep going, its not about greed or stupidity, it's just human nature.

[Danny]

what can i say?, beyond my funny and charmingly witty exterior i have wisdom beyond my years.

[Trin]

Well, now that you mention it, DAWN's commentary also "paints people as stupid, set in their ways, and unable to recognize the changing needs of survival." The television, the police raid on the tenement, the "redneck" scene and the biker raid in particular all support this viewpoint. You have to admit that Romero is consistent in his commentary. Hahahaha!!! I admit nothing!!! Okay, I'll admit you have a point. GAR movies are full of stupid people. It's definitely a consistent view of GAR's regarding humanity. I don't ever remember wanting to slap the screen though prior to Land. So the consensus is that Cholo and Kaufman were stupid and coveted money because it was familiar and they were clinging to the old ways. And everyone else went along with it and allowed themselves to be subjugated to Kaufman's money because they were stupid and it was familiar and they were clinging to the old ways. And that's all nice and plausible.

[triste realtà]

The last time I watched Dawn, I had an 'aha' moment. I think there is a contrasting of the city vs the country in the beginning of the film. The city folk are shown constantly bickering and victims of their emotions. Then they get out in the 'sticks' and you hear 'They're probably enjoying the whole thing', but in Night 90 the response is 'Give me a break'. The 'rednecks' are shown getting the job done, organizing to eliminate the threat, while the city folks are getting eaten cause they're zombie huggers.

[lullubelle]

what can i say?, beyond my funny and charmingly witty exterior i have wisdom beyond my years. And you are a smart*** too

[darth los]

The last time I watched Dawn, I had an 'aha' moment. I think there is a contrasting of the city vs the country in the beginning of the film. The city folk are shown constantly bickering and victims of their emotions. Then they get out in the 'sticks' and you hear 'They're probably enjoying the whole thing', but in Night 90 the response is 'Give me a break'. The 'rednecks' are shown getting the job done, organizing to eliminate the threat, while the city folks are getting eaten cause they're zombie huggers. I think the country folk were TOO laid back and didn't seem to be taking it seriously enough. Imo that can be just as deadly as panic and chaos.