I don't really understand the beginning of Dawn

[axlish]

Consider that they had just gassed the building, and he had no gear on whatsoever. Everyone inside had gas masks on except for Roger (removed) and Wooley (crazy). In fact, the NOT THAT ROOM cop is the only person dressed like that in the entire scene.

[Philly_SWAT]

True. They do make mention of moving citizens to central portions of the city, so perhaps they had more than just the usual emergency rescue stations set up. Perhaps. However most major cities to do have much in the central portions of the city except for large buildings, either bank/office buildings or apartments/project-tenements. Philly is no exception. The locals call the downtown area "city center" I believe, which is all large buildings. There are no "shelter" type buildings there, at least not enough that could be converted to shelters to hold millions. Now that I always figured was just the spiel he used on EVERY SWAT raid. Nothing it it to indicate it was specific to this type of situation. So, you could interpret it either way... I always took it just to illustrate that Roger was an old pro & not a rookie, & to set up the exchange between him & Rod Tucker (& to add a touch of humor). I am in the process of moving, so I do not have an extended version here to watch, but it that one, the bullhorn speech is much longer than in the theatrical (perhaps you already know this) and Roger is repeating, beforehand, every line the guy says. In the theatrical version, all you here is something like "Martinez, the people in this building are your responsibility. We dont want any of them hurt. There are no charges against you." I cant rememer the lines from the extended, but I seem to recall they shed more light on the general situation, and Roger knows them all. I dont think the spiel was for EVERY SWAT raid, I mean, what does that mean anyway? Would SWAT have regular raids on projects pre-zombie outbreak, with guns and gas masks? Maybe rarely there would be reason to storm a building, but on a regular basis to where SWAT officers would know the lines by heart? I dont think so. I think this clearly shows Roger was familiar with "zombie raids". See, to me they DID kinda freak out in there. Wooly goes ape shit ( ), one of the 2 guys that enters the apartment with Roger commits suicide, the guys downstairs bash in the barricade (which I wouldn't have thought they would have done if they knew there were zombies in there, unless maybe they didn't know how many, or thought they could handle it). Plus then Peter & Roger in the basement. All of it together (to me) seemed like a bunch of guys who walked into something WAY more than they bargained for, something they weren't expecting. I disagree. The "freaking out" comment I made was specifically targeted at rookies, that it would be unsafe to have rookies going on with NO IDEA what to expect. I would think that anyone would freak out, at least a little, even knowing full well that the dead had come to life and were attacking the living. Even if you were fully informed, dont you think you would freak out a little if you were in that situation? I took everything in that scene as a domino effect of the SWAT guys continually making these types of raids. Wooley was pissed and on the breaking point. The guy who commits suicide was almost near the breaking point, pushed over by seeing Wooley go ape shit, and then killed by a fellow officer, with no ramifications (Peter just casually walks away). Then he grabs a gun with no ammo, and has a legless zombies coming at him, so he reached the breaking point and offs himself. Roger sees both incidents, and he starts to reach the breaking point,(in his case wanting to abandon his post and Run) goes to the basement sick to his stomach over what he has seen, and discovers Peter already there. He probably assumes Peter is having similar feelings as he is hiding there too, and not participating in the activities above, which is why he probably opened up with his thoughts of running to a stranger. The guys who bashed in the barricade were supposed to be checking the building for zeds, how else to get in that room without bashing in the door? In the extended version, the zeds do not come out right away. They bash in the door, and then nothing for a few seconds. Also, remember that the one black office kind of casually says "Shoot it man. Shoot it in the head". Remember that 3 weeks in, not everyone knew this was the key. Flyboy, although he may not have been a good enough shot to get a headshot every time, seemed unaware that it was necesary. He seemed confused as to why the zombie he was shooting at in the field didnt go down. The black guys casual comments illustrated to me that they knew full well what to expect. Also, one of the women in one if the apartments says "who are you looking for?" I think this showed that they were definitely looking for zeds, and probably that she knew that, but was in on the hiding bit. I think that is why the afro army guy says "So this is where they threw them in, huh?" as if now he knows why they didnt find as many as expected upstair. Also, we're 3 weeks in, where the shit is really starting to hit the fan, where things are reaching the breaking point. But it seems like it's JUST AT THE POINT where it's getting there. Not sure how many of these type of situations would have come up in that period of time. I agree they are reaching the breaking point just then. I say it is after numerous raids such as this over the past few weeks. It stands to reason that the intensity of the raids (more zombies, more danger, more officers going ape shit) would increase as time goes by. Now that I think about it though, When the National Guard guy pokes his head in he says "This must be where they kept 'em huh?, so HE seems to have known. So, maybe they did know! Or maybe the Cop upstairs, or one of the residents told him...hmmm... I think they all knew. Y'know, it's amazing to me that movies this old, that we've all seen as many times as we have, still have as many secrets & mysteries as they do, & still has scenes that are as open to interpretation & discussion as Night, Dawn, & Day. Yes, thats why we love em! Eh, there were all kind of people there. Regular cops, National Guard. The Captain & the guy with him looked like detectives rather than uniformed officers. Not too far fetched in that kind of crisis that all kinds of units would be co-mingling. It would also make sense that the regular cops would have been the first on the scene & that when they met armed resistance that SWAT was called in. So maybe he was one of the first responders. Units were definitely co-mingling. In the scene right where Roger first starts to grab hold of Wooley, you can clearly see two army or national guardsman go past them and down the stairs to the right. They are wearing helmets, not the blue SWAT hats. I always took it that the black cop who yells "Not that room" was not a street cop, but a higher up, which was why he was wearing a tie, and barking orders. Plus, a low income project like that having uniformed security? I dunno... Yes, highly unlikely.

[axlish]

It sounded more like pleading to me, not orders.

[Philly_SWAT]

It sounded more like pleading to me, not orders. Orders given in a chaotic environment, to a person that you had strong reason to believe was not of their right mind, a person giving no indication that they would follow orders anyway, and with the consequences of them disobeying the order leading to results that would be dire, would probably come off with a pleading tone to them, I would think.

[axlish]

Considering the guy was blasting everything in sight, why would he have anything against Wooley going in "THAT ROOM" and blowing away all the zombies? Why was his gasmask off when everyone else was wearing one save for Roger and Wooley for reasons already given? Why did this supposed order giver stand aside and let an "underling" struggle to bring down Wooley, simply standing by idly and waiting to see if he went in a particular room? Why did he know what was in that room? Why is no one else in the entire scene dressed like him? Why is he dressed like the dock officers? (just noticed that LOL) Why did none of the SWAT members treat him like a superior officer, and merely pass him by like he were a lamp post? I think an order giver is a bit of a reach, personally.

[Philly_SWAT]

Considering the guy was blasting everything in sight, why would he have anything against Wooley going in "THAT ROOM" and blowing away all the zombies? Actually, I think the phrase "not that room" was a poor choice of dialogue, but that is not a fun answer when disecting the movie. There are many possible explanations, one is that no one knew exactly what was in that room (zombies, the living, both) but the only thing we see Wooley shoot in the movie are living beings. He does not shoot one zombie. If this behavior had been observed, he may not have want Wooley to open the door to ANY room, as there might be innocent people in there about to get blown away. Why was his gasmask off when everyone else was wearing one save for Roger and Wooley for reasons already given? Again, many explanations. A better question would be why was Wooley not affected by the gas with his mask off for an extended period? In fact, I dont think we ever see Wooley with the mask on his face at all. Was the "racist asshole adrenolene" pumping thru his veins making him immune to the gas effects? As to the "not that room" guy, one possible explanation is that there wasnt enough gas masks to go around, so higher up types that were not expected to be on the front line of the raid did not have them. Presumably it was tear gas they were using (as we see Roger rubbing his eyes after Wooley is shot) but they is a little girl on the staircase right next to Peter and not-that-room guy. She has no mask on, and has her hand over her mouth (possibly to avoid breathing the gas, or possibly in shock over seeing one cop shoot another), and she doesnt appear to be suffering the effects of the gas, so it is possible that the effects were wearing off in that area, explaining why the higher up went in. Why did this supposed order giver stand aside and let an "underling" struggle to bring down Wooley, simply standing by idly and waiting to see if he went in a particular room? I am not sure how jobs have been where you have worked in your life, but in my life order givers commonly dont do much of anything except stand idly by and see what their underlings do. If the underling does something good, they take credit for it, if they do something bad, they blame the underling. Why did he know what was in that room? As I said above, I am not sure that he did. Why is no one else in the entire scene dressed like him? As stated before, different units were intermingling. We see two army guys run by the scene down the steps, we see 6 SWAT guys, (Peter, Roger, Wooley, and 3 others with guns), a little girl, and nothatrooom guy. He could have been a higher up with the police department, not SWAT, but had command authority on scene with so many different groups intermingling. Or may have assumed authority that wasnt his, which can happen during chaotic times (I remember Alexander Haig assuring the country that "he was in charge" after Reagna got shot). Why is he dressed like the dock officers? (just noticed that LOL) He may have been a higher up in whatever division the dock officers were in. Why did none of the SWAT members treat him like a superior officer, and merely pass him by like he were a lamp post? What were they supposed to do? One officer was just fighting another officer, who was killing innocent people, another officer killed that officer, everyone was a bit stunned, and no one decided to stop/question/attack Peter, so I submit it is reasonable to see that during the chaos proper recognition of authority figures would be understandable. I think an order giver is a bit of a reach, personally. It may well be. I stated originally that is just the way I always took it. There are many real world dialogue problems with the line "Not that room", and I chalked it (and the identity/rank/position of notthatroom guy) up to the same sloppy movie techniques displayed elsewhere in the film, i.e. Romero did not put much thought into it.

[MoonSylver]

I am in the process of moving, so I do not have an extended version here to watch, but it that one, the bullhorn speech is much longer than in the theatrical (perhaps you already know this) and Roger is repeating, beforehand, every line the guy says. In the theatrical version, all you here is something like "Martinez, the people in this building are your responsibility. We dont want any of them hurt. There are no charges against you." I cant rememer the lines from the extended, but I seem to recall they shed more light on the general situation, and Roger knows them all. I dont think the spiel was for EVERY SWAT raid, I mean, what does that mean anyway? Would SWAT have regular raids on projects pre-zombie outbreak, with guns and gas masks? Maybe rarely there would be reason to storm a building, but on a regular basis to where SWAT officers would know the lines by heart? I dont think so. I think this clearly shows Roger was familiar with "zombie raids". Yeah I have the Extended. IIRC the only thing Roger is mimicking is "I'm giving you 3 minutes. There are no charges against you, or any of your people." Pretty generic stuff that you could use in any hostage situation. Don't recall anything "zombie specific". Interesting stuff. Also, why did they make it illegal to occupy private residences? They would obviously be more safe than forcing civilians into crowded areas. It would be more organized maybe at first, but not when everyone started dying. Exactly. I think it was a typical government solution to a "natural disaster" - evacuate. They probably don't want a bunch of heavily armed civilians holing up & looting/shooting it out over supplies, etc, when "we can take care of you" Philly raised some good questions on where are they gonna put 'em all? I always assumed they were going to evacuate they city. To where....? I dunno. Maybe they didn't either.

[axlish]

I think they'd have at least looked at the superior officer and questioned whether or not they should throw the cuffs on Peter. Honestly, I think Romero's intent was that one of the raiding SWAT officers actually lived in the building and knew what was in "THAT ROOM". He opted for a non masked cop so we could see that the words were his since Peter was already shouting through his mask. Romero learned his lesson from The Crazies where he cheezily added dialogue to several hazmat suit guys in a given scene. UPDATE: I just checked the script and the novel and there is no mention of the NOT THAT ROOM cop. Damn.

[Yojimbo]

I always thought that perhaps the "not that room" dude was either a "Security/Superintendent" dude who lived in the building, or perhaps was a cop who had been told by a resident that the room down the hall was full of zombies, or that the family inside had sucumbed to zombie injuries. (NOTE: For a while there I have wondered if this guy might have been Martinez, but that is another debate all together!) So, rather than have that room opened which would cause zombies to come streaming out of the room into the hallway adding to the chaos, perhaps he thought it better to keep the room shut until the hallway was cleared of civillians. The soldiers and cops then would be able to situate themselves in an appropriate fashion in anticipation of the zombies behind the door. SWAT door breaching tactics would have then been employed without needlessly exposing civilians to the carnage or running the risk of having non-combatants injured by "friendly fire" With regard to whether or not the SWAT and Nat Guard knew that the residents of 107 had moved their dead (many of the residents, I assume, were Catholic - there was a Catholic Priest on scene after all -and shooting the dead the the head would amount to desecration of human remains, and as a Catholic this would have been frowned upon) I think it is clear that they did in fact know, since the bullhorn guy said before the raid that the "dumb bastards" had their dead locked up in the basement. As to how they knew this is anyone's guess. Perhaps the "not that room" dude was a local beat cop who found out about the bodies in the "not that room" room and in the basement, and then tried to reason with Martinez (whoever he might be) but failed, and then he decided to call in the Calvary. Cool thread!

[MoonSylver]

I think it is clear that they did in fact know, since the bullhorn guy said before the raid that the "dumb bastards" had their dead locked up in the basement. Actually, he makes no mention of the dead in the basement. He merely mentions "He's got them all moved into one building. Dumb little bastards!" This is in the middle of negotiating w/ Martinez & his people to come out & telling him that the people of this project are his responsibility. So I took that he was referring to Martinez & his crew & the residents.

[Yojimbo]

Actually, he makes no mention of the dead in the basement. He merely mentions "He's got them all moved into one building. Dumb little bastards!" This is in the middle of negotiating w/ Martinez & his people to come out & telling him that the people of this project are his responsibility. So I took that he was referring to Martinez & his crew & the residents. Now that I think about it, I realize that I was wrong about the quote. Thanks Moon for pointing that out, brother. So I guess they were likely just raiding the building because the residents refused to evacuate per the government order (as had been previously pointed out) and then they realized during the raid that the basement was full of zombies.

[Philly_SWAT]

Yeah I have the Extended. IIRC the only thing Roger is mimicking is "I'm giving you 3 minutes. There are no charges against you, or any of your people." Pretty generic stuff that you could use in any hostage situation. Don't recall anything "zombie specific". OK, but I still say that the idea of SWAT raids in a "hostage situation" are few and far between. Its not like SWAT goes out everyday armed to the teeth, kicking in doors of civilian apartment buildings. This is a RARE occurance, not a common place one. And this wasnt a hostage situation at all. The SWAT guys were going in for one of two reasons 1) the people were disobeying the can not occupy private residences thing, or 2) they were going to dispose of dead bodies and reanimated zombies, or both. In a hostage situation, you wouldnt say "the people of this building are your responsibility". The only thing that makes sense about how/why Roger knows, word for word, what the guy is going to say on the bullhorn before he even says it is that he has heard it over and over recently. Even if Roger had been present in all other SWAT raids of apartment buildings since he had been part of the unit, I would say that in the pre-zombie days, that would be less than once per year, certainly not enough to where someone would memorize the exact wording being used to call people out. In fact, the same wording would not be used over and over anyway, each situation would be different, and call for different wording to be used. The only thing that makes sense that the bullhorn guy would be using the same words over and over is that he himself has been handling the exact same situation over and over recently.