TWD 3x13 "Arrow on the Doorpost" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Andy]

I didn't know that Allies and Nazis played football, that's very interesting. I can't help but imagine Nazis wearing modernized NFL jerseys with giant swastikas and ridiculously long German names on the back of them that barely fit on the shirt. World war 1 buddy.. nazi's where world war 2 Closest we came to a friendly sports match with the nazi's was the 1936 olympics held in Germany.

[MinionZombie]

I didn't know that Allies and Nazis played football, that's very interesting. I can't help but imagine Nazis wearing modernized NFL jerseys with giant swastikas and ridiculously long German names on the back of them that barely fit on the shirt. Speaking of music, Iron Maiden and Def Leppard had a soccer match before. (Or futbol, as they call probably call it.) 1) The Nazi's didn't stop by for a ruck until WW2, although it was still Germany (and others) that the Allies were fighting against in The Great War/WW1. *edit* Ah I see kidgloves and Andy both got to the point before I'd even finished my post. I'm such a natterer... Yeah, it's a story I heard about either in history class, or during a field trip to Belgium where we got to visit surviving trenches and battlefields ... anyway, one Christmas the two opposing sides crossed into no man's land to have a kick about as if they were friends, and then the next day they were back to mowing each other down with bullets and bombs. Crazy stuff, but it just goes to show the difference between the men on the ground and the system/nation/whatever (in this case town/settlement) that they're fighting for. There are human similarities, but they're locked into this war that's bigger than any of them, and as such it's far beyond their control. It's quite sad when you think about it... 2) "Football". Just thinking about it also, even though he's one of The Governor's henchmen, I actually quite liked Martinez in this episode - that snifter of his backstory, as well as his pissing contest with Daryl, made him into more of a three dimensional man, who just so happens to have been warped into something much darker by the ill will of another. This episode's really getting me pondering ... the more you think about it, the more and more existential this episode was. Yes ... I definitely dug this one.

[Wyldwraith]

I can see the value some others perceive, Yet I can't help but feel they're (the writers) are getting a pass again for placing so much psychological weight on Rick struggling with the Governor's ultimatum. I mean, the whole "I was praying you could talk me out of it" to Herschel...and all of it delivered after Rick's very clear assessment that the Gov would almost certainly come after them regardless of Michonne...I just didn't see the point. Emotions are emotions and facts are facts. If I have a dozen+ EXCELLENT reasons to believe that whether or not I comply with the sociopath's ultimatum, me and mine will STILL experience the most negative repercussions, what reason is there to consider the ultimatum further beyond idle wishing against reality, Ie: That the Governor could be dealt with as if he were an evil yet SANE man. All the things Rick pointed out in response to the Governor's ultimatum are absolutely true. The Governor is 110% willing to roll the dice and risk his entire agenda and very life (along with the lives of all of Woodbury), all in the name of revenge against Michonne. Now, we know that's not really true. We know the ultimatum was just a psychological ploy to screw with Rick, and that the Gov's aim hasn't changed from the beginning. The absolute destruction of Rick & Co. Yet, for RICK to give the Governor's ultimatum about giving him Michonne ANY weight (which he obviously is), RICK would need to believe that the man he's dealing with is so obsessed with revenge against Michonne that he's willing to do a complete one-eighty concerning Rick & Co continuing to live. See the inconsistency? If Rick believes the ultimatum is legit, he must also believe the man he's dealing with is a vindictive revenge-obsessed killer. If Rick DOESN'T believe the ultimatum would be honored if he complied, then he believes the man he's dealing with is a pathological liar and manipulator who has never wavered in his resolve to murder Rick and all Rick's people. In other words, take the actual ultimatum out of the equation, because either way the Governor himself has provided Rick with testimony that he's too evil and insane to deal with. Therefore, Rick agonizing over the ultimatum can be nothing more than knowing it's a non-option, but futilely wishing it were actually an option so he wouldn't have to launch a war of annihilation against an outnumbering force. That's MY reasoning yes, but I've TRIED and I can't come up with another viable way to perceive those events. Perhaps someone else can explain to me what the impetus for Rick's agonizing is?

[facestabber]

Clearly the end, particularly for Team Prison, is all about setting up all the dominoes and not all of them are going to be left standing by the end. I also liked this episode for it's exploration, at times, of leadership in a tough situation - e.g. Rick only confiding the truth in Hershel (the group's sage and elder statesman) because they need to be scared for their lives in order to have the best chance of weathering the storm that is coming. It was also interesting to have Rick pose the question of whether Hershel can risk his daughters' lives over the one life of an outsider (or rather, very recent insider) ... but yeah, as he said, Woodbury would come back to finish the job regardless. Interesting approach by Rick. I'm not faulting him or agreeing with him about lying to the group. But the group has continuously followed his lead. Not sure why he thinks now they won't. Or that it is best to lie. If he told them the Gov is evil and his request for Michonne I cant see the group divided over the decision to sacrifice her. Maybe he is worried about Merle but Merle himself would say and has said it wouldnt stop with Michonne. So yeah, a quiet episode, but there was lots of interesting things throughout when you get to thinking about them, I felt - like The Governor having scouts hidden around the prison to keep an eye on them (Woodbury now know that they're tooled up). I picked up on that too. Quite a haul or stash he said. In other words we are watching you. So the day time "with out cover" activities/watch needs to change or a sniper round may come flying. Though unlikely they were followed to Morgans location if they know the general direction maybe the story will eventually show the Gov's henchman going after Morgan. Speaking of which - the gun table - yep, that's a healthy stash of weapons and ammo. See, it wasn't just one medium sized bag. Ha ha. Dont pat yourself on the back too much I know you Brits arent around guns and ammo that much so I wont beat on ya for the fact that our group of 3 in no way carried that amount of weapons and ammo in even two trips. Alot of weight there. Most people are surprised at how much a box of 50 handgun rounds weigh. Im just nit picking. I realise they just had to imply taking alot, not show it. I can imagine there'll be a wave of anti-Andrea memes coming, or whining etc ... but she has to go back in order to facilitate an extraction for Milton (that's what I'm assuming will happen, anyway) ... plus she might be going back to try and see if she can take him out after all, now that she knows something shifty went down between him and Maggie. In the closing moments though, her exchange with The Governor was a little oddly played, so I felt anyway, I wasn't quite sure whether Andrea was taking his word for it, or whether she was suspicious/not believing him at all ... just a slight niggle with that moment. I am officially in the 'Andrea annoys me camp' BUT no whining about her decision to return to Woodbury this round. I believe she finally gets it. The closing moment exchange between her and the Gov made it clear to me that she has made a decision. "I hope it all works out" after TG refuses to reveal any details of proposal was her way of getting out of the topic and not pushing it any further cause that was all she needed to hear. I hope Andrea will now take action and win me back over. Yes she owes it to me for annoying me.

[babomb]

The thing that kills me about the Gov is that he doesn't really have any true power. He isn't combat hardened like any member of the prison group. He reminds me of that spoiled rich friend you have in childhood. Who's an asshole to everyone, and nobody puts him in his place because they want to be invited to his pool parties. The power he holds over everyone isn't even his own power. He shows up to this meeting and the only thing keeping him alive is Martinez. If Rick would've put one in his head, and darryl put a bolt through Martinez' head, everyone else in Woodbury would've been too afraid to do anything else. Everyone in Woodbury was ready to pull up stakes and beat feet a couple episodes ago. Kill the Gov, and everyone in Woodbury will disappear into the night like a bunch of roaches when the light turns on. The Gov admits this to Rick in this weeks episode. But for some reason Rick thinks that he only has 2 options. Surrender Michonne or go to war. Merle was the only one that had the right idea. Which was the same idea that Glenn had a few episodes ago. I understand that Rick would prefer to not go to war, which is why he met with the Gov. But it was glaringly obvious that it wasn't gonna happen that way after the Gov gives the ultimatum. So the idea that Rick is even considering the Gov's offer isn't even grounded in reality. It should be obvious to everyone that the Gov is the driving force behind Woodbury. They assaulted Woodbury and only a few people there had the ability to fight. If Woodbury itself had any capacity to put up a fight they would've never been able to pull that assault off. They would've been met with overwhelming force and pushed back or killed off. Andrea has stated to Rick that the people at Woodbury are mostly innocents, and are oblivious and scared shitless. They see the prison group as raiders. Andrea understands this, she knows that the Gov is bluffing. The Gov says that his people aren't combat tested but they outnumber the prison group. And that this battle will come down to the last man standing. But this is not true at all! If the Gov is killed, and Martinez and that other black dude are killed, it's game over for team Woodbury. The rest of them will retreat and Woodbury will be a ghost town. Merle knows this. Merle knows the power structure of Woodbury. He was the #1 henchman. The Gov holds NO CARDS. he's just got a good poker face. Both Merle and Michonne know this to be true. So it just seems that most of the situation taking place right now is all plot device. All done by writers that are just trying to ratchet up tension at the expense of realism. This is what irritates me about writers. Writers that sit in their cozy little Hollywood homes and host dinner parties with industry folks, then try to write about hardships and gritty realities that they have no understanding of in even a theoretical perspective.

[MinionZombie]

Regarding the sneak peaks for 3x14 as seen on AMC's YouTube Channel (I know Neil doesn't like to see talk about the previews, hence the spoiler tags below):   Naturally I've been viewing the sneak peeks on AMC's YouTube channel, and not to spoil anything, but I think the Andrea haters are going to have a change of heart coming their way - much in the same way that Michonne caught a lot of flack initially, and then 3x12 seemed to really turn a lot of opinions completely around. They don't give anything away, it was more a clip about clear intentions/opinions/motivations. Andrea's had a whole arc to follow over season three, and it's all been falling into place in these last few episodes. My patience has been tested in certain places, and there have been a few patches of iffy writing/under-writing, but I've never been a harsh critic of Andrea in the show (same goes for Carol), so I'm looking forward to people coming around to my way of thinking about Andrea.

[Wyldwraith]

Excellent points babomb, And pretty much what I was driving at. Rick knows it would be insanity to trust his or others' lives to the word of the Governor, knows they indeed cannot coexist so long as the Governor lives...so where's the dilemma? Merle and Glenn have been preaching the ONLY viable answer for multiple episodes now. Yes, I realize assassinating the Governor episodes ago would've left the Season at a dead end...but who's fault is that? Is a standoff that only exists for contrived reasons a better creator of content? The meeting between Rick and the Governor needed to happen, no argument. Rick needed an up close look and hearing from this viper. That done, how his takeaway can be anything beyond "They're gonna take us down if they can, so what are we gonna do about that?" baffles me utterly.

[sandrock74]

MZ's talking about the mans game of football. You know, the one with a round ball that you kick with your foot. FOOTball Oh, you mean soccer

[babomb]

Excellent points babomb, And pretty much what I was driving at. Rick knows it would be insanity to trust his or others' lives to the word of the Governor, knows they indeed cannot coexist so long as the Governor lives...so where's the dilemma? Merle and Glenn have been preaching the ONLY viable answer for multiple episodes now. Yes, I realize assassinating the Governor episodes ago would've left the Season at a dead end...but who's fault is that? Is a standoff that only exists for contrived reasons a better creator of content? The meeting between Rick and the Governor needed to happen, no argument. Rick needed an up close look and hearing from this viper. That done, how his takeaway can be anything beyond "They're gonna take us down if they can, so what are we gonna do about that?" baffles me utterly. The only thing I can think of that would make sense after all this is if they're setting up another plot point for season 4 where people believe that Rick is unfit to lead. We have to assume that the season finale will be action packed and end with some type of cliffhanger. The past 2 seasons have followed this format. So it could be that the next 1-2 episodes are slow, and build on the idea that Rick can't lead the group any longer or that the rest of the group are becoming impatient with his leadership. If word gets out to anyone that Rick is actually considering handing over Michonne I think we'll see the seeds of dissent take root. I think Carl will be a major factor in that. Especially since he already thinks Rick should stand down, and since the last episode gave him a sweet spot for Michonne. But really, the thing to do would be for them to formulate a plan that involves them making it seem like Rick is gonna hand over Michonne, but results in the decapitation of the Gov. Then they should put his head in a fish tank on display in the middle of Woodbury...

[Legion2213]

I *heart* Rick Seriously though, unlike a lot of you, I enjoyed the episode, may have been a bit light on zombie butchery, but it was "mood music" for what is to come. Oh, and Andrea simply hasn't watched enough zombie movies if she thinks "they are the real threat"

[JonOfTheShred]

You know what ruined this episode for me? COMMERCIALS. This episode is 100% better without any commercials, the tension has a chance to rise throughout. Commercials killed the potential of this episode, but on a repeat viewing its twice as strong. World war 1 buddy.. nazi's where world war 2 Closest we came to a friendly sports match with the nazi's was the 1936 olympics held in Germany. I must have misread that post for the sake of comedy, substituting football with American Football and World War I's "antagonists" with Nazis. MZ's talking about the mans game of football. You know, the one with a round ball that you kick with your foot. FOOTball I agree with ya, "American Football" should be called something else entirely. The actual sport futbol, where you kick the ball for the duration of the game, should retain that title, just makes more sense.

[Neil]

What I most enjoyed is I found I couldn't read the episode. eg: When seeing Hershel checking his leg gun, I thought, right that'll be used later. And the same for the gun taped to the Governor's side of the table too.

[MinionZombie]

What I most enjoyed is I found I couldn't read the episode. eg: When seeing Hershel checking his leg gun, I thought, right that'll be used later. And the same for the gun taped to the Governor's side of the table too. Aye, I dug all those examples of misdirection - it upped the tension and provided possible avenues, so you didn't know what to expect. I was on the edge of my seat for most of the episode - and yet there was no big ruck, nobody died etc. Some quality character drama right there.

[AcesandEights]

I actually really enjoyed this episode. Only a little time wasted with the Daryll and Martinez's star-crossed bromance splatter-off, which was an okay idea in theory but came off to me as cheesy and an excuse to toss in kewl zombie kills for the Dave Navarro crowd. I think the choice of scenes were great: Really appreciated how the Governor tries to feel Rick out all throughout their little conclave, constantly switching tacks, as if he were going down a mental checklist and looking for weaknesses to exploit. I loved Andrea's marginalization. Her emotional neediness and this sense of brokenness she exudes is really becoming a defining aspect of her character, but I can't help but wonder how intentional this was or, whether it's just a corner her character has been painted into by a combination of mixed writers/lack of an established character arc and her character getting lost in plot momentum. I suspect the latter. Enjoyed the Maggie/Glenn time, it didn't seem forced and it seemed a pretty honest f*ck vs. flight emotional/hormonal response to all their stress, as well as the culmination and (partial?) resolution of their recent issues. I also really like Rick's honest reaction to the Governor, he knows the guy's slime, doesn't want to put people at risk and labors over a decision, he fails to realize is pretty simple--I see this everyday from people. Absolutely loved everything about Hershel this epsidoe, from his rumpled jacket, wary glances, stump-gun and especially his back and forth with Milton, who is also a nice counter-point character to see in action. I didn't think I'd like this episode as much as I have, they did a tension building episode that actually worked for me. What I most enjoyed is I found I couldn't read the episode. eg: When seeing Hershel checking his leg gun, I thought, right that'll be used later. And the same for the gun taped to the Governor's side of the table too.

[MinionZombie]

I actually really enjoyed this episode. Only a little time wasted with the Daryll and Martinez's star-crossed bromance splatter-off, which was an okay idea in theory but came off to me as cheesy and an excuse to toss in kewl zombie kills for the Dave Navarro crowd. I think the choice of scenes were great: Really appreciated how the Governor tries to feel Rick out all throughout their little conclave, constantly switching tacks, as if he were going down a mental checklist and looking for weaknesses to exploit. I loved Andrea's marginalization. Her emotional neediness and this sense of brokenness she exudes is really becoming a defining aspect of her character, but I can't help but wonder how intentional this was or, whether it's just a corner her character has been painted into by a combination of mixed writers/lack of an established character arc and her character getting lost in plot momentum. I suspect the latter. Absolutely loved everything about Hershel this epsidoe, from his rumpled jacket, wary glances, stump-gun and especially his back and forth with Milton, who is also a nice counter-point character to see in action. 1) I really enjoyed the Daryl/Martinez face-off (although do remember that Andrea rolls her eyes at it - a pissing contest - she ain't interested), but I really liked it because it was all a part of these opposing sides getting time together and going off into little pairs to find out that they're not-so-dissimilar. Yes, it does put in zombie kills, but if they didn't have that in there then other people would be complaining about them being out there for hours and not encountering a single walker - which would be quite unlikely anyway. So, point being, it wasn't just in there for zombie kills, it served as character function - particularly for Martinez as we get a snifter of his backstory - once again, humanising an enemy. 2) Yeah I dug that too - The Governor was really pulling on strings, and I saw Rick let a few things slip in his reactions. Rick was very steely at first, but there were a few glimpses of wounds under the surface so-to-speak. It was almost like The Governor was a cat playing with a mouse (as he sees it), but I think The Governor's ego is bigger than his ultimate punch. 3) Regarding Andrea - I disagree - she's got a very defined season arc, or rather, a very full season arc. The writing hasn't been top notch every episode for her (certain subtexts have been missed entirely because a certain scene hasn't quite given the audience all the necessary information - such as her being a Human Rights Lawyer who has never killed a human being before etc), but she has a real rollercoaster this season. As far as she was concerned she was abandoned at the farm, then she was struggling on-foot in the winter wilderness with death at every turn for months, and then she finds Woodbury - the promise of the old life that she hasn't accepted has gone for good yet. Andrea is still clinging onto the ideas of the past, she is wishing for something better after having had a real personal struggle, and like the men in Dawn of the Dead in the mall, she becomes hypnotised by Woodbury - she doesn't seen the bad side, but Michonne isn't hypnotised, and then just how things worked out, they got split up. Now though she's seen behind the curtain, but she's desperate to create peace - she knows that fault lies in both camps and that war isn't the right option, so she's fighting for that, but the inevitability of war (again recognised in the Daryl/Martinez face-off) is too great. I'd say that Andrea has painted herself into some corners. I've been behind her the whole way, even if my patience has at times been tested, and I believe that my faith in her evolving character will be proven in the next three episodes. Mark my words, people - vindication is coming! 4) Aye - love Hershel, love Milton ... I really want Milton to join Team Prison. It's interesting to have someone alive in the apocalypse who has never really had to fight, he's been able to be sheltered by others along the way, and it's not even like he's a gentle soul who then was able to take up arms quite readily (e.g. Carol) when the time called. Milton has been really sheltered throughout all this, so it's interesting to see this very soft and cultured sort of person - who believes in a future for mankind (and indeed a victory for mankind) - he believes in culture and history and documenting this incredible event. He sees a far larger picture than day-to-day survival, and while that's not practical if you're fending for your life, when you're afforded with shelter and protection then you can have that, and it's an interesting counterpoint to a generally far harsher and brutal world surrounding him.