The Last Of Us (TV series)

[MinionZombie]

Geeeeeeeez. Episode three just floored me. Also, there's an accompanying podcast for each episode on the HBO Max YouTube channel...

[shootemindehead]

***SPOILERS*** I was left mixed on Ep3. A bottle episode in a 9 episode show is just weird. As a stand alone movie or story, it would have been grand. But it actually feels like a really awkward insert at this juncture. To spend and entire hour + with two fairly random characters who have no real impact on the general narrative is a really curious choice. Especially as they killed off Bill at the end so he doesn't help Joel and Ellie as he did in the game and no has absolutely nothing to do with the story's continuation. I probably would be warmer to the episode if Bill had actually lived. Killing him off was odd. The whole thing feels like a different show for a large bulk of it.

[Neil]

***SPOILERS*** Yeh, agree. But I still enjoyed ep3. Although I don't get how:- 1) There was only seemingly one (implied) raid? 2) Why would such a diligent survivalist be standing in the middle of the road shooting at raiders, rather than behind any sort of cover. 3) They happen to die just days before Joel and Ellie turn up. Not months or years... Days... But generally I liked the episode. ps: I would have thought a nice touch would have been towards the beginning if Bill had heard sustained gun fire outside the town. ie: The towns folk being shot for the mass grave.

[shootemindehead]

1) There's not many people left in the world and Bill's gaff is pretty out of the way 2) He's a prepper, so probably a pre-apocalypse gun nut who thinks everyone is out to get him. That doesn't mean he's been actually trained in any military discipline. I'd wager a lot of those American gun nut types all think that they're Rambo in their heads, but if they ever had to put themselves to the test, it would be another thing. Plus, panic often makes a person do the exact thing they know they shouldn't be doing. 3) That's possible no?

[MinionZombie]

***SPOILERS*** Yeh, agree. But I still enjoyed ep3. Although I don't get how:- 1) There was only seemingly one (implied) raid? 2) Why would such a diligent survivalist be standing in the middle of the road shooting at raiders, rather than behind any sort of cover. 3) They happen to die just days before Joel and Ellie turn up. Not months or years... Days... But generally I liked the episode. ps: I would have thought a nice touch would have been towards the beginning if Bill had heard sustained gun fire outside the town. ie: The towns folk being shot for the mass grave. 1) Would seeing two or three or four or more raids have added anything? I don't think so at all, it would've just been repetitive. We get the story beat and we see enough of a glimpse of Raiders to understand the threat, while leaving it alone enough that it can be developed in later episodes and interactions - leaving it more for Joel and Ellie to deal with. 2) Yes, that did grate on me, but Shoot also makes valid points. Mind you, considering how he knew how to do all those damn things you'd have thought he'd know the basics of 'use cover to avoid getting shot' ... mind you, it also serves a purpose of tension. You think Bill's going to die of the gunshot wound, but then we flash forward and in the distance on the porch there's a man in a wheelchair, and you think it's Bill, but then you discover it's Frank who has (presumably) had a stroke and has been physically (as opposed to mentally) affected by it. 3) Which adds to the tragedy of it all. I've seen some comments online from reactionary 'anti-woke warrior' types whining that the ending of this episode gave Bill and Frank a "happy ending" ... what the fuck was "happy" about this ending? It was tragic and sad. The only thing "happy" about it was their last day, but even that was completely tinged with sadness and heartbreak and impending loneliness (hence Bill's decision, which in my view was quite understandable - if I had nobody left to care about I'd be off to find the nearest tall thing to jump off of or whatever else, quite frankly). 4) I like the idea of distant gunshots, but was it happening quite that immediately in the timeline of this apocalypse? Then again, it was those residents who were in that pit (the clothing of the mother and baby shows that to be the case). Unless we missed hearing it somewhere in the episode...? ... In terms of this being a "bottle episode" ... technically? But I think this episode handled a lot of thematic weight lifting, which is then passed onto the Joel & Ellie story, without going through some of the usual beats we've seen so many times in so many other post-apoc stories. Being that Bill and Frank also knew Joel and Ellie, and that the note mentions Tess, now just recently deceased, adds further emotional impact and further drives home that 'men like Bill and Joel have a purpose' ... ironically, these reactionary anti-woke people have missed that that's one of the most traditional and manliest of male ideals: to be the protector and to have purpose through protection of others. Another irony is that this episode also proves the point that you don't have to 'see yourself' to get emotionally invested in characters on-screen (something that the 'aggressively woke' brigade have rarely ever understood) - as long as it's well written and performed (as this episode very much was), then you can find connection. Similarly, some have whined about 'they wouldn't have spent this time on a heterosexual relationship' and you just think, bitch please, have you seen all of television and film for the past 12+ decades? Just following Joel and Ellie walking around for a whole episode would've been dull. We see plenty to get the jist of these two post-Tess, but we also get to explore a whole range of wider themes for the entire story. It also adds some further context for seeing how the world changed and how the apocalypse changed people, and how life still progresses and decays regardless of the apocalypse. Sometimes you need a breather. Look at episode 6x04 of The Walking Dead (the one with Morgan and the cheese maker), or indeed in the second season of Hunters that just came out the penultimate episode is a 'bottle episode', but tells a compelling story that is relatively isolated, but still has an important connection to the wider story in multiple ways.

[Neil]

1) Would seeing two or three or four or more raids have added anything? I don't think so at all, it would've just been repetitive. We get the story beat and we see enough of a glimpse of Raiders to understand the threat, while leaving it alone enough that it can be developed in later episodes and interactions - leaving it more for Joel and Ellie to deal with. True, but suggesting/implying only one happened? Anyway it's just a niggle... I like the notion of these stand alone stories weaved into the bigger story line/apocalypse. The Walking Dead had some of these, and typically they worked well...

[MinionZombie]

True, but suggesting/implying only one happened? Anyway it's just a niggle... I like the notion of these stand alone stories weaved into the bigger story line/apocalypse. The Walking Dead had some of these, and typically they worked well... I'm not sure if it was implying only one raid happened. It was interesting that after Joel gave that warning, saying that even though it's been a long time it will happen eventually (in-turn suggesting 1) Bill's remote location, 2) a general lack of people, which in-turn means raiders in small numbers scattered all over), there was a time jump of about three years. I was off-set initially, lulled into a false sense of security, then the raid comes. I think it's left to the viewer's imagination whether or not there were more raid attempts that we didn't see, but clearly nobody got through those lines of defenses as the fence line was still intact and operational. I too really dug this episode. It is good to get a flavour of this large world from other people's POVs from time-to-time, as it shows other experiences within that same context. Bill and Frank had a very different story to what Joel has had (and will have) and likewise for Ellie, but it all links together as part of a much larger tapestry. It weaves into the story of TLOU more than the plot, story and plot being two different things. Plot is what's happening right now at any moment, what you see on-screen, whereas story includes everything relating to the characters before, during, and after what we've seen on-screen (i.e. their context, or indeed the context of the world in which this is all set). I though episode 3 handled some of the larger and core themes of the overall story of TLOU quite well and made them relevant to Joel and Ellie, but also did so in a way that the audience's emotional connection to them will match that of Joel when he reads the letter (or at least match his reaction enough to drive the point home and make it mean something important).

[shootemindehead]

I like the notion of these stand alone stories weaved into the bigger story line/apocalypse. The Walking Dead had some of these, and typically they worked well... Most TV shows have bottle episodes. Some are more successful than others. However, they don't have them 3 episodes in and they usually don't rip the audience away from the main characters and focus on completely random ones only to kill them off at the end. There is, literally, no significance to the main narrative that stems from either Bill or Frank. They'll have no major impact at all on the story, because the entire episode is a story that's completely their own. Also, I'd wonder just how this episode would have been greeted is Frank was Francine? I seriously doubt it would be getting all the online critical kudos that it is currently.

[Neil]

Most TV shows have bottle episodes. Some are more successful than others. However, they don't have them 3 episodes in and they usually don't rip the audience away from the main characters and focus on completely random ones only to kill them off at the end. There is, literally, no significance to the main narrative that stems from either Bill or Frank. They'll have no major impact at all on the story, because the entire episode is a story that's completely their own. Also, I'd wonder just how this episode would have been greeted is Frank was Francine? I seriously doubt it would be getting all the online critical kudos that it is currently. Get your point, but I enjoyed it. I also feel it gave some depth and gravitas to the 20yrs and the apocalypse that happened. The Walking Dead could have done with more flash backs and other stories from the fall of humanity IMHO. Out of interest, how does that episode relate to anything in the video game? ie: Was there anything like that episode in the game?

[shootemindehead]

Get your point, but I enjoyed it. I also feel it gave some depth and gravitas to the 20yrs and the apocalypse that happened. The Walking Dead could have done with more flash backs and other stories from the fall of humanity IMHO. Oh it's certainly enjoyable. It's just a massive jerk away from the direction the show was heading and it kills the momentum badly. It's like say in 'Star Wars' just after Luke decides to leave Tatooine we cut to Degobah to spend and hour with Yoda farting about. Out of interest, how does that episode relate to anything in the video game? ie: Was there anything like that episode in the game? In the game, Joel and Ellie meet Bill in order to try and pick up a car. He's a miserable old bollocks and there's some good banter back and forth between him and Ellie. Bill has set up traps and defences all around a town and it's riddled with infected. Bill helps Joel and Ellie pick up a working vehicle and they go on their way. During the section where Joel, Ellie and Bill are looking for the car, they find Frank dead and a note that says he hated Bill and got sick of his rules, so he buggered off. But obviously didn't make it out of town without getting infected. So he killed himself before it could take hold. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byrkFkvYlAM It's very different and both ways are fine. But the TV show's hard cut to 15 years worth of a flashback did nothing for the flow. It's really a separate story altogether that's jammed in.

[Neil]

[Moon Knight]

I believe the purpose for spending so much time with Bill and Frank was to see the passage of time during this epidemic through two complete strangers. I think they could have gotten a bit deeper and showed more of the threat but instead we got a very nice, although tragic, story about two people finding love during the sh*t. Also, we now know the story behind Joel’s radio and the choice of songs. Joel and Ellie got some weapons, a sweet ride, and much needed deodorant out of it all. Not too bad.

[MinionZombie]

While episode three might seemingly have done not too much for the plot, it did plenty for the story, as well as really cementing key themes - especially in relation to Joel, emotionally raw and lost in the wake of Tess' death, and his mission to escort Ellie. Also, let's not forget that the episode also featured material with Joel and Ellie, which saw them growing a little closer, at the beginning and close of the episode, so it wasn't even an entire episode dedicated to Bill and Frank's tale. I would also counter-argue that certain people pissing and moaning (the rabidly anti-woke types who are just as bad as the super-woke types, both of them similarly blinkered and entrenched in their views) about this episode are grumpy because it featured two gay men. I'd wager if it was Bill & Francine their whining would've been neutered by comparison. Call Me Chato, one of these cultural commentator YouTubers (who generally does a good job and doesn't get lost in the extreme weeds) made a point in concern to this episode: a lot of 'super-woke shite' is causing increased negative reactions to anything that could be remotely considered 'woke', such as this episode, just because it features two gay men. However, such reactions to this episode are nonsense, because there's nothing 'woke' in this entire episode. The romance is played no stronger or 'in your face' than if it had been two straight characters (perhaps even a little softer), and at no point are they grinding proceedings to a halt for some poorly written polemic crammed-in by some pissed-off hack excuse for a screenwriter whose concerns for writing begin and almost end with "identity politics" above everything else (certainly plot, story, and characters) ... whereas Craig Mazin has proved himself to be a gifted writer with Chernobyl, and now The Last Of Us. We get our first glimpse at Raiders, we get more context for the overall story of the apocalypse, Joel and Ellie get to know each other better, Joel has his heart and mind firmly aligned on his mission at a crucial low point for him, etc etc etc. I wouldn't even call this a 'bottle episode', as 'bottle' episodes are intended to be cheap productions to help save money (think of the episode involving Walt and Jessie trying to kill a fly in Breaking Bad) and somewhat keep things in a holding pattern - whereas this episode is certainly none of those things. While it certainly does more to advance the story as opposed to the plot (they're two different things), it's just not the case that the episode doesn't do anything. I'd much prefer this than to just seeing Joel and Ellie making their way through some traps and clickers and such (which is really more gameplay as opposed to plot or story) - we've already seen some of that in episode two and will most assuredly be seeing more of it in the coming episodes.

[shootemindehead]

While episode three might seemingly have done not too much for the plot, it did plenty for the story, as well as really cementing key themes - especially in relation to Joel, emotionally raw and lost in the wake of Tess' death, and his mission to escort Ellie. Also, let's not forget that the episode also featured material with Joel and Ellie, which saw them growing a little closer, at the beginning and close of the episode, so it wasn't even an entire episode dedicated to Bill and Frank's tale. But all of that is happening without Bill and Frank's story. Even if Bill and Frank are eliminated completely, Joel and Ellie still end up going where they're going and getting closer over the course of their journey. The Last of Us is, literally, that story irrespective of Bill and Frank. It's Tess who convinced Joel to see the mission through and Joel is going to make the decision to head on to Tommy, as that's where Tess and Joel were going in the first place. Also, we can see that even before Joel and Ellie get to Bill's gaff that he's starting to warm toward her. So we're already on the journey regardless of Bill and Frank. They're a nice little story in their own right. But they're absolutely extraneous to the main one. I would also counter-argue that certain people pissing and moaning (the rabidly anti-woke types who are just as bad as the super-woke types, both of them similarly blinkered and entrenched in their views) about this episode are grumpy because it featured two gay men. I'd wager if it was Bill & Francine their whining would've been neutered by comparison. Agreed and the episode is currently getting 1 star reviews on IMDB from that particular cohort. The reality is that, no, it isn't the greatest bit of TV ever and it isn't a 1 star story either. However, even if Frank was Francine, the problem with the episode still remains. It's an awkwardly inserted separate story jammed into the story everyone came to see and all at just episode 3 into the bargain. Call Me Chato, one of these cultural commentator YouTubers (who generally does a good job and doesn't get lost in the extreme weeds) made a point in concern to this episode: a lot of 'super-woke shite' is causing increased negative reactions to anything that could be remotely considered 'woke', such as this episode, just because it features two gay men. However, such reactions to this episode are nonsense, because there's nothing 'woke' in this entire episode. The romance is played no stronger or 'in your face' than if it had been two straight characters (perhaps even a little softer), and at no point are they grinding proceedings to a halt for some poorly written polemic crammed-in by some pissed-off hack excuse for a screenwriter whose concerns for writing begin and almost end with "identity politics" above everything else (certainly plot, story, and characters) ... whereas Craig Mazin has proved himself to be a gifted writer with Chernobyl, and now The Last Of Us. This "woke" word has become a nonsensical shorthand for "things I don't like" from a certain cohort on the right, especially the American right. It's a reductive, tiresome and thoroughly divisive catchword that only serves to inflame, and it drowns out any legitimate criticism that can be levelled toward any media. Frankly, when someone cries "woke", I just tend to tune out of anything else they have to say at this point and in any case, for me this a "webism". I never hear it in real life.

[MinionZombie]

But all of that is happening without Bill and Frank's story. Even if Bill and Frank are eliminated completely, Joel and Ellie still end up going where they're going and getting closer over the course of their journey. The Last of Us is, literally, that story irrespective of Bill and Frank. Well, that's the plot of The Last Of Us, but the story includes everything surrounding (as well as including) Joel and Ellie and the world they are living in - and this episode plays right into that, primarily handling some significant thematic weight. It's Tess who convinced Joel to see the mission through and Joel is going to make the decision to head on to Tommy, as that's where Tess and Joel were going in the first place. Also, we can see that even before Joel and Ellie get to Bill's gaff that he's starting to warm toward her. So we're already on the journey regardless of Bill and Frank. They're a nice little story in their own right. But they're absolutely extraneous to the main one. Joel's only in it in episode one (and most of two) purely to get a car battery. He has no commitment to Ellie personally. Tess does indeed convince Joel to continue the mission, but even still, his commitment is only to Tess at that point - out of obligation to Tess, not Ellie. Upon reading the note from Bill - the meaning of which can only truly be felt and expressed through the story we've witnessed with Bill and Frank - Joel finally commits to Ellie. She's not a chip getting bargained with with a car battery as the pot o'gold at the end of the shades-of-brown rainbow, she's not an obligation made to Tess (essentially her dying wish), but she's now properly Joel's mission in his heart as well as his head. That is the key purpose of this episode. Agreed and the episode is currently getting 1 star reviews on IMDB from that particular cohort. The reality is that, no, it isn't the greatest bit of TV ever and it isn't a 1 star story either. However, even if Frank was Francine, the problem with the episode still remains. It's an awkwardly inserted separate story jammed into the story everyone came to see and all at just episode 3 into the bargain. This "woke" word has become a nonsensical shorthand for "things I don't like" from a certain cohort on the right, especially the American right. It's a reductive, tiresome and thoroughly divisive catchword that only serves to inflame, and it drowns out any legitimate criticism that can be levelled toward any media. Frankly, when someone cries "woke", I just tend to tune out of anything else they have to say at this point and in any case, for me this a "webism". I never hear it in real life. "Woke" gets in the way on both sides. On one side you've got terrible writers and showrunners who just focus on identity politics and boxes to be ticked and messages to be pushed with all the subtlety of a bulldozer at a maternity ward - instead of focusing on story, plot, and character (the key fundamentals of storytelling) with any themes handled deftly - while on the other side you've got people who get so hung-up on the bad examples that they 1) can't see good, and objectively non-"woke" material for what it is (falsely calling it "woke"), and 2) any valid opinions or points that they have to make are automatically ignored by folks who immediately disregard them because a four-letter word, 'webism' or not, has been used. It's a whole whirlwind with farts flying in everyone's faces. I can objectively understand and respect the point that some (including the rabidly 'anti-woke' ragetubers) have put forth about its place structurally - but I personally do not agree. Joel and Ellie both featured in the episode to top and tail it, and not just a few measily minutes either, and their inclusion is tied to the Bill and Frank tale for the above-mentioned reasons. It's arguably in Mazin's playbook to write and structure in unexpected ways - Chernobyl doesn't show you the 'inside' of the disaster until the final episode, while the first time we see the infamous event is far in the distance through a small window, or the episode that primarily focuses on three individuals in the teams who were charged with putting down any and all animals in the area.