TWD: "The Ones Who Live" (Rick/Michonne spin-off)... **SPOILERS**

[JDP]

Except that it is, you just never ever accept anyone's counter argument. Ever. Add in plenty more, including the likes of Aaron and Gabriel. Even the 'followers' in Alexandria et al are far more capable and much more "A" than the "B" people happily living in, and never wanting to leave, the CRM. Except there's no real need for them to approach Rick's group. Also, why would Rick really want them to approach Alexandria et al, considering how he's been essentially kept prisoner all this time? It's safer for his people to not have them mixed up with the CRM. Also, as we've clearly established with the CRM, secrecy is absolutely paramount to them and why they've been so successful in protecting their city and their hundreds of thousands of people. Getting mixed up with relatively tiny groups of people - strangers to the CRM - is needless danger for them, regardless of what someone like Jadis has to say. Again, they potentially have everything to lose (see above point about secrecy). And, again, much to gain? The CRM has hundreds of thousands of people, they have their own power, water, food - they even have their own television station broadcasting news to their citizens, for crying out loud - plus a large army, military weapons, vehicles, helicopters etc etc etc. What on earth could Alexandria, Oceanside, and the remnants of Hilltop possibly have to offer the CRM? And keep tabs on them? They'd have to do that to every settlement in the wasteland, every individual - not happening. A waste of resources and just more opportunities for someone to potential get taken and tortured into giving away the CRM's location, the secrecy of which is of utterly paramount importance. You keep talking about "secrecy" as an excuse, but these guys keep on recruiting new people without much concern about it. Can't you see the obvious contradiction? They don't seem very worried about letting new people into their community. That's in fact how Rick ended up among them in the first place: one of their collaborators (Jadis) in the "wastelands" brought him to their attention. So, yes, they are very much interested in what goes on in other places, and in bringing in new recruits, that's why they have people like Jadis "out there". This brings us up again to the issue at hand: these guys should not be so vehemently opposed to Rick being able to reestablish contact with his group. The only reason why Rick keeps on trying to escape is because they don't let him go do just that. Rick is not doing it for the sport! If they allowed him to find them, he would do it, no need to "risk life & limb" (literally!) The point is that the CRM should not be so opposed to this, seeing how easily they recruit outsiders. Rick's group would in fact be a potential new source of recruits. Regarding Gabriel & Aaron: not really "A's", they tend to follow others' "leads", at least at the time when Rick was admitted to the CRM. At that time, the "A's" were Michonne, Daryl, Carol, Ezekiel and Maggie. Negan is also an "A", but he was a war prisoner then, not in a position to lead at the time.

[MinionZombie]

You keep talking about "secrecy" as an excuse, but these guys keep on recruiting new people without much concern about it. Can't you see the obvious contradiction? They don't seem very worried about letting new people into their community. That's in fact how Rick ended up among them in the first place: one of their collaborators (Jadis) in the "wastelands" brought him to their attention. So, yes, they are very much interested in what goes on in other places, and in bringing in new recruits, that's why they have people like Jadis "out there". This brings us up again to the issue at hand: these guys should not be so vehemently opposed to Rick being able to reestablish contact with his group. The only reason why Rick keeps on trying to escape is because they don't let him go do just that. Rick is not doing it for the sport! If they allowed him to find them, he would do it, no need to "risk life & limb" (literally!) The point is that the CRM should not be so opposed to this, seeing how easily they recruit outsiders. Rick's group would in fact be a potential new source of recruits. Regarding Gabriel & Aaron: not really "A's", they tend to follow others' "leads", at least at the time when Rick was admitted to the CRM. At that time, the "A's" were Michonne, Daryl, Carol, Ezekiel and Maggie. Negan is also an "A", but he was a war prisoner then, not in a position to lead at the time. Rick only got taken away on the chopper by pure luck, having been washed down river from the bridge explosion. Jadis was almost about to lose her ticket out of the area, but then got lucky when she spotted Rick. You talk about how the CRM should observe these communities - but if they did in fact do that with Alexandria et al, they would clearly see how they wouldn't be a good idea for the CRM considering just how much trouble they ended up causing at the Commonwealth. Hell, the CRM don't seem to be too fussed about the Commonwealth, either. So again, Alexandria et al are mere trinkets not worth bothering with. The people who stay in the CRM are desperate to remain there and will do anything they're told to stay there. This does not vibe with the history of Rick's group, who have always ended up changing the communities they join. Hell, we can see Rick going down that very same path once more in this first episode of this show. Also, Gabriel and Aaron were both on the Alexandria Council and clear leaders amongst the group when Rick was still around. So yeah, they're definitely "A" folk.

[MinionZombie]

Three episodes in now and digging it. Apparently it's just six and done, so it's just hoofing it along no fannying about. Now, that does have its downsides as well - the newbies Michonne hooks up with in episode two are gone so quick we don't really get any time to attach to them, although it was nice for a change to encounter some people (not all in that group, of course) who are just automatically nice people and not yet another mangy warrior of the wasteland ready to cut your throat in an instant. On the other hand, I'm glad we're not wasting too much time on random newbies when legacy characters are in the mix waiting to be fully used *glares at Dead City*... The ending of episode three is iffy, mind.   Michonne just opens the door and yanks Rick out of the chopper ... uhhh ... u wot m8? Surely they could've come up with something better than that. They're flying in a chopper at who knows how high during a storm and do we even know if we're above water, at least? Still, I'm enjoying how they're working the angles of Rick being trapped in the CRM, and I'm intrigued to know what info South African lady now knows that seems to be changing her tune. Also - the turnstile/gate bit in ep 3 was awesome. Another creative zombie kill.

[Neil]

So...   Ep2, when Rick & Michonne bumped in to each other, why not immediate run and hide? They had several minutes, and why would anyone miss Rick's body in a crash site?

[MinionZombie]

So...   Ep2, when Rick & Michonne bumped in to each other, why not immediate run and hide? They had several minutes, and why would anyone miss Rick's body in a crash site? Considering the CRM's extreme interest in keeping their location as secret as possible, any body unaccounted for would have to be assumed to be someone on-the-loose in one way or another - and a potential security risk (e.g. they could tell someone else, nefarious types even, where the CRM is located). Even the body that 'blew up' didn't blow up the whole way (i.e. legs could be found in the wreckage). You're also not thinking with total rationality at that point, either. Plus, 'run and hide' doesn't work particularly well, as we've seen with Rick's numerous failed attempts to escape in episode one.

[Neil]

^ Get's a medium hmmmmmmm from me...

[JDP]

^ Get's a medium hmmmmmmm from me... Same here. The "secrecy" excuse is not very good even to explain why these CRM guys just don't go ahead and let Rick find his group again, and then just "absorb" them, or whichever ones among them they are interested in. They don't have any problem with recruiting new people, they keep on doing it, plus they already know that Rick will just not give up trying to find his people again, he even chopped off his own hand trying to do that! Might as well just have their collaborator, Jadis, tell them the location of Rick's people and then just relocate them to their city. Problem solved, two birds with one stone: they have plenty of new recruits, and Rick will stop trying to escape now.

[Neil]

The end of ep3... WTF? Do people just know they have 20" thick plot armour now?

[MinionZombie]

Same here. The "secrecy" excuse is not very good even to explain why these CRM guys just don't go ahead and let Rick find his group again, and then just "absorb" them, or whichever ones among them they are interested in. They don't have any problem with recruiting new people, they keep on doing it, plus they already know that Rick will just not give up trying to find his people again, he even chopped off his own hand trying to do that! Might as well just have their collaborator, Jadis, tell them the location of Rick's people and then just relocate them to their city. Problem solved, two birds with one stone: they have plenty of new recruits, and Rick will stop trying to escape now. Problem not solved. The people in the CRM want to be there. Marching in and forcibly taking everyone from Alexandria et al is just a completely unworkable idea riddled with holes. An awful lot of people aren't going to take kindly to that, for one, so that creates a whole load of problems (even when they want to be in a community, a whole heap of chaos inevitably ensues - e.g. the Commonwealth). For two, the CRM isn't hard-up for people, so it's not as if they're desperate for newbies to join the machine. There's no upside to the CRM exposing themselves for the sake of adding a few more underlings in a community that is literally in the hundreds of thousands. A third problem is that the CRM pathologically don't want any "A" people (they literally have them killed), so kidnapping all and sundry from a pool of hardened survivors with numerous community leaders is similarly not in their M.O. The end of ep3... WTF? Do people just know they have 20" thick plot armour now? Yes. I didn't like that tumble out the chopper ending. We'll see how that concludes in episode four, eh?

[Neil]

Yes. I didn't like that tumble out the chopper ending. We'll see how that concludes in episode four, eh? Hmmm... So it seems Michonne, in the dark and in the middle of a storm and travelling at 100mph, just knew there was water underneath, and they'd both be OK (full clothed) in it? Hmmm... Next...   Two questions:- 1) If they're so concerned about being tracked/found, why are they happy farting about in a lit up building and even standing in front of a lit up window? 2) I assume that's why the Apache helicopter then decided to attack that particular building? Because it saw them at the window? If so, why not shoot a rocket somewhere near that window? And just happening to get in to an unlocked car that has survived years outside, with tyres, starter motor and battery all intact/charged? The plot armour thickens... It's gone down hill a little bit since the first couple of episodes IMHO.

[MinionZombie]

Hmmm... So it seems Michonne, in the dark and in the middle of a storm and travelling at 100mph, just knew there was water underneath, and they'd both be OK (full clothed) in it? Hmmm... Next...   Two questions:- 1) If they're so concerned about being tracked/found, why are they happy farting about in a lit up building and even standing in front of a lit up window? 2) I assume that's why the Apache helicopter then decided to attack that particular building? Because it saw them at the window? If so, why not shoot a rocket somewhere near that window? And just happening to get in to an unlocked car that has survived years outside, with tyres, starter motor and battery all intact/charged? The plot armour thickens... It's gone down hill a little bit since the first couple of episodes IMHO. 1) Well, we don't know what speed the chopper is doing, to be fair. But I would have at least wanted a couple of shots to show that they're not that high up and that she also sees they're over a large body of water - at least give me that. Sure, there's some suspension of disbelief, so it'd be churlish to expect absolute realism, but within the acceptable boundaries you know? 2) The chopper that came afterwards blew up the other chopper to destroy the crashed one just to eradicate it, covering their tracks. It's referenced in the dialogue. The CRM have assumed that all onboard died as no beacon has been set off. 3) I see what you mean about standing in a window, but at the same time it's a lot of windows all over a massive building. I was more irked by them taking a time out to shag and reconnect - even though those scenes are crucial for them as characters, and even though they've transferred over to the other section of building (it seems to have two distinct towers, if you will, joined by a section at ground level). Just a little tweak to this, to show us the viewers that while one portion of the building is sorely damaged, this other portion seems to be just fine - and then have Rick and Michonne laying low while the chopper surveys the landscape searching for any survivors of the crash. 4) The car - the battery was on a charger and is a converted hybrid vehicle. The episode doesn't make it particularly clear, but I think the inference is that those in that building had lasted a very long time and hadn't all died off until fairly recently (i.e. the car wouldn't have been there for years and years, but perhaps weeks or a few months at most. I would've liked it to be in an underground garage, or covered space more, but sometimes you just can't get everything you'd want in a location, so it just comes down to some practical sacrifices and remaining within your budget and production schedule. Bits and bobs like this need tidying up, though, as best as can be done. It'd be good if all productions had an outsider read every script to do a "hang on a minute..." pass.

[JDP]

Hmmm... So it seems Michonne, in the dark and in the middle of a storm and travelling at 100mph, just knew there was water underneath, and they'd both be OK (full clothed) in it? Hmmm... Next...   Two questions:- 1) If they're so concerned about being tracked/found, why are they happy farting about in a lit up building and even standing in front of a lit up window? 2) I assume that's why the Apache helicopter then decided to attack that particular building? Because it saw them at the window? If so, why not shoot a rocket somewhere near that window? And just happening to get in to an unlocked car that has survived years outside, with tyres, starter motor and battery all intact/charged? The plot armour thickens... It's gone down hill a little bit since the first couple of episodes IMHO. Too many convenient coincidences. Not only do they fall in the water, but end up precisely in a room of the building which is right in front of where the helicopter they were in crashed! The CRM is blowing up the building supposedly to "cover their tracks"... but they do so by sending A HELICOPTER TO LAUNCH ROCKETS AT THE BUILDING... not a very "inconspicuous" way to go about it, LOL! They couldn't ask for more "advertising", in fact. Survivors from miles around will easily notice such an event and deduce that there must be a group out there big and powerful enough to have still working helicopters around. As with the whole "we will play cat-and-mouse games with Rick, even though we have absolutely no problem whatsoever recruiting loads of outsiders, including in fact Rick himself", the supposed "we must maintain secrecy at all costs" of these guys doesn't make much sense. The plot has more holes than a big slab of Swiss cheese. You would think that after so many years of planning after Rick was written out of the main show, they could have polished this much anticipated Rick-centered spin-off show/movies a bit more.

[MinionZombie]

Too many convenient coincidences. Not only do they fall in the water, but end up precisely in a room of the building which is right in front of where the helicopter they were in crashed! The CRM is blowing up the building supposedly to "cover their tracks"... but they do so by sending A HELICOPTER TO LAUNCH ROCKETS AT THE BUILDING... not a very "inconspicuous" way to go about it, LOL! They couldn't ask for more "advertising", in fact. Survivors from miles around will easily notice such an event and deduce that there must be a group out there big and powerful enough to have still working helicopters around. even though we have absolutely no problem whatsoever recruiting loads of outsiders 1) I do agree RE: the convenience of certain elements. At the same time there has to be some level of convenience allowed, but there are times where it strays over the line. 2) I imagine the CRM will go out and destroy their fallen choppers much like the military will destroy their own gear under certain circumstances. Sure, people will see these choppers - but that's it. Where precisely they're going? Who the fuck knows, these choppers are covering large distances, so some scruff bucket survivors rambling around aren't going to be able to track them down - or perhaps even want to. 3) Have we actually seen them recruiting "loads" of outsiders, though? They've recruited over many, many years at this point, with a considerable portion possibly being citizens already in the area at the very beginning of the ZA (as a result of a city/cities not being firebombed - folks 'grandfathered in'). They don't seem to, at this point at least, really need to recruit large groups of people - which inherently has the problem of "A" leader types being in the group. The CRM are more interested in very small groups or lone individuals who would be particularly keen on joining such a society that is heaven compared to the wasteland: the so-called "B" types. It's possible that some larger groups have maybe had their "A" leaders secretly wiped out, leaving desperate "B" followers in a bind - at which point someone like Jadis appears and offers entry. However, we've not really seen anything like this really being covered in the show or other spin-offs to the best of my knowledge (I never bothered with that god-awful 'Walking Teenagers' show ... World Beyond, was it?)

[Neil]

it'd be good if all productions had an outsider read every script to do a "hang on a minute..." pass. lol...

[MinionZombie]

lol... And I'll offer my services for a reasonable fee.