Loved it. One one of the better written episodes to me with less awkward dialogue and slightly off acting than usual.
Morrissey is nailing the governor and that leaves me giddy with anticipation for what's coming up. The structure of having these location specific episodes works for me, and I hope they will do it often this season. It gave us the chance to get to know Woodbury better and helped build up a certain feeling of unease. The feeling that there is something going on behind Woodbury's facade slowly creeping in was well done.
It's something we have seen a thousand times before in tv and film but it was masterfully executed. Classic tv. TWD keeps getting better.
Nitpickers central; have to agree with MZ's bushinessless bush and Facestabber's points about the too easily taken out military personnel. IF the gov's troops are subdued by that tea that makes it even worse. (There's definitely something going on with that tea.) I also think Danai Guirira is laying the silent, cautious samurai thing on a little too thick. Frowning and generally looking really bad ass and angry in every other shot got a bit obvious. Stark contrast with the gleefull and at the same time subtle Governor performance. It's still too early to tell but this episode really did nothing to take away my initial feelings towards Michone... Still small niggles in an overall excellent episode.
Last edited by krisvds; 30-Oct-2012 at 06:24 AM.
Reason: .
I get what you're saying about the military unit,
Even a practiced-at-envelopement tacticts death squad couldn't time their from all sides barrage as PERFECTLY as they did. Even if they were wild shots as they were hit, at least a couple of the military guys should have gotten a round or two off. After all, we know that fingers often clench down on triggers if said finger was already in the trigger well when someone gets hit. Even some spraying half a clip into the ground as they spun and tumbled to earth would have added realism to the massacre. Will admit that's a minor issue though.
The one I had more problems with in that scene was the improbability that with that dense cluster of vehicles and the Gov's men's need to remain in cover to make the ambush work, only ONE GUY was fortunate enough not to be in a direct field of fire? This is one of those potential-pitfall type events I mentioned earlier. If they're going to portray unit-level clashes, tighten up the camera angles and do a bit of homework on what real modern massacres are like. There's ample material available, from Somalia to Bosnia to Iraq. Yes, I realize the scene was to demonstrate the Governor's methods for the audience, but if you make his atrocities seemingly "too easy" to commit, then it undercuts the sense of how dangerous this man is at the helm of practiced killers.
Glad I'm not the only one whose Paranoia Sense went off about the tea. After more musing, I think the Governor may be going a subtler route than attempted chemical dependence. Instead I'm betting on a mix of mood elevators and some sort of tranquilizer. After all, prior to this year IRL, Xanax was like the #3 most prescribed controlled substance, behind Oxycodone/Oxycontin and Methadone. So with scavenging teams it wouldn't be terribly hard if one worked at it to find a supply of Xanax (sp?). I was thinking along these lines because of how accepting everyone seems to be in Woodbury, to the point of passivity. Plus, there is a significant drawback to using the hard-and-fast chemical dependence method. In a scavenging-based economy, what would be the result if there was a temporary or permanent interruption in finding the necessary drugs? Woodbury could tear itself apart overnight in a mad haze of withdrawal and loss of control.
As someone who has experienced HARDCORE withdrawal (in my case from Oxycodone), I can tell you that you reach a point (and I don't expect anyone here who hasn't gone through it to believe this) where the pain and sick feeling, the "OMG why am I not dying faster so this agony can be OVER!?!?" feeling, that shortly after you hit that point if the Devil himself were to appear in a cloud of brimstone with a bottle of your drug of dependence you'd be hurrying his speaking along to get to the signing your soul away to get that bottle. You'd betray the trust of family and friends, rob loved ones, lash out at ANYONE, just to make it stop.
I don't think someone as controlling as the Governor would risk being put in a position where his few clearheaded killers would need to massacre their worker-bee Woodbury populace if something like that happened, so as I said I'm leaning towards believing its a subtler doping of the tea.
Last edited by Wyldwraith; 30-Oct-2012 at 03:28 PM.
Reason: Need to correct a thought.
I just listened to an interview with the writer of this episode. She claims the Tea bit is a jab at one of the writers. Supposedly it is just an inside joke. However, if the Tea is really laced then why is the Governor drinking the stuff?
After spending a few days attempting to defend what the military survivors did at the ambush I have changed my mind....
The show desperately needs a good Military Consultant.
When shows attempt to include military and law enforcement and make only a half-assed attempt to portray tactics, uniforms, equipment it distracts me from the story and pierces the bubble of disbelief.
That M2 .50 Cal machine gun mounted on the back of the soft shell HMMV will rip off and collapse after one round. It is bolted to the canvas top frame which is hollow tube and is barely holding the weight of the gun empty. I find that slapped together HMMV more irritating than a British tank in downtown Atlanta. I can hear the prop guys now saying "Nobody will notice" but we do and by not paying attention to the little things they irritate their strongest demographic and slowly erode the feel of the show.
I know they cannot afford Dale Dye but they are filming in west Georgia. That area has the largest concentration of military retirees in the USA. I am sure they can find a retired Sergeant Major to at least help the actors correct their weapons handling, appearance, terminology, etc... Using Vietnam era equipment like the Huey is OK just explain why once and move on.
Mazzarra, Please just get this stuff right or don't do it.
I just listened to an interview with the writer of this episode. She claims the Tea bit is a jab at one of the writers. Supposedly it is just an inside joke. However, if the Tea is really laced then why is the Governor drinking the stuff?
Producer David Alpert said the same thing on Talking Dead. The show did seem to focus on it quite a bit, but it appears to just be an inside joke. Kinda like The Governor's wife in the family picture being producer Denise Huth.
As for the military consultant.....I don't care. Most people will never notice. Seems like a silly thing to get hung up on, if you ask me.
Was the tea really focused on that much? I can recall only one scene, which was the Gov going down to talk to the Dr Logan type character, in the 'Day of the Dead' homage.
I agree with the military wipeout being a tad unrealistic. Even weekend warriors wouldn't have been whacked that easily. But I'll be willing to overlook it because the rest of the episode was very good overall.
I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....
Producer David Alpert said the same thing on Talking Dead. The show did seem to focus on it quite a bit, but it appears to just be an inside joke. Kinda like The Governor's wife in the family picture being producer Denise Huth.
As for the military consultant.....I don't care. Most people will never notice. Seems like a silly thing to get hung up on, if you ask me.
A funny clip from Episode 304:
A funny clip indeed (another clip shows a lot of drama is coming, so we should be getting an interesting blend there - I know you've seen spoilers, Bassman, which is a damn shame, but don't even speak of the Defcon-level scope of the spoilers - seal your lips, my good man! )
I dig that they're tossing in a little of the fun stuff too - in the comics they have the 'Glenn & Maggie are really horny' subplot, which was a nice counterpoint to all the grim goings on. You do need a bit of levity now and then to spice things up and keep the peaks and troughs going.
Regarding the military stuff, aye, only those in-the-know would notice (I didn't spot anything in terms of technicalities or anything - but I'm a laymen when it comes to that stuff, as I'm sure are the most of the viewing audience). Essentially it's one scene in the entire episode - you're not going to really bother (or even afford) an advisor for that one thing. Getting the tech just right might also go beyond your budget too. There's limits to what can be done, you just have to not let things like that take over the show for you - to fixate or become overly bothered by small side details will just hurt your experience of the rest of the show, and it's a spiffing show.
Reminds me, in a way, of working on a short film years ago for a 'local tv' project. Folk living locally could get involved in making 90 second short films, and I was making some of these films, and one of the producers of this series got incredibly fixated on a fucking TEA TOWEL in the background of one shot. He said it looked messy, and I hadn't even spotted it - but as I said to him, we're viewing this under a microscope, whereas the first-time-viewer won't see it at all. Long story short, the short film was never aired - no doubt because of that fucking tea towel that he got so hung up about.
Originally Posted by shootemindehead
Was the tea really focused on that much? I can recall only one scene, which was the Gov going down to talk to the Dr Logan type character, in the 'Day of the Dead' homage.
I agree with the military wipeout being a tad unrealistic. Even weekend warriors wouldn't have been whacked that easily. But I'll be willing to overlook it because the rest of the episode was very good overall.
The scene where TG, Andrea, Michonne, and Milton eat breakfast, features a lot of hot tea action - phwoar! There is mention of the tea verbally, but also a lot of shots of Milton seemingly guzzling it like it was going out of fashion. I swear he refills himself like three times or more with that weird 'pours from the bottom' tea pot thingy ... I'd imagine that the frequency of tea is a furtherance of the in-joke, but it's a nice character 'thing' for Milton, I think. It certainly sets him up as being a bit more cultured/kind-natured than TG or anyone else.
I just listened to an interview with the writer of this episode. She claims the Tea bit is a jab at one of the writers. Supposedly it is just an inside joke. However, if the Tea is really laced then why is the Governor drinking the stuff?
After spending a few days attempting to defend what the military survivors did at the ambush I have changed my mind....
The show desperately needs a good Military Consultant.
When shows attempt to include military and law enforcement and make only a half-assed attempt to portray tactics, uniforms, equipment it distracts me from the story and pierces the bubble of disbelief.
That M2 .50 Cal machine gun mounted on the back of the soft shell HMMV will rip off and collapse after one round. It is bolted to the canvas top frame which is hollow tube and is barely holding the weight of the gun empty. I find that slapped together HMMV more irritating than a British tank in downtown Atlanta. I can hear the prop guys now saying "Nobody will notice" but we do and by not paying attention to the little things they irritate their strongest demographic and slowly erode the feel of the show.
I know they cannot afford Dale Dye but they are filming in west Georgia. That area has the largest concentration of military retirees in the USA. I am sure they can find a retired Sergeant Major to at least help the actors correct their weapons handling, appearance, terminology, etc... Using Vietnam era equipment like the Huey is OK just explain why once and move on.
Mazzarra, Please just get this stuff right or don't do it.
Care to share this interview with the fine folks here?
The body is the instrument on which imagination plays.
The military consultant thing? I could see if the story were following a group of trained pros through a series of building clearing operations or something heavily military.
But I personally never noticed a machine gun bolted to canvas. And the scene where the military unit gets taken out by the Gov and his men, the point of that scene is to show how brutal the Gov is. And it accomplishes that wonderfully. To get caught up in technical military aspects of 10 second scenes would impact the production way too much. Budget wise, and would throw the pace off if they had to include dialog in scenes just to explain why certain objects are in the scene. We haven't really seen any pre-dominant military scenes where the terminology comes into focus.
The vast majority of the audience pays no attention to these things.
The scene where TG, Andrea, Michonne, and Milton eat breakfast, features a lot of hot tea action - phwoar! There is mention of the tea verbally, but also a lot of shots of Milton seemingly guzzling it like it was going out of fashion. I swear he refills himself like three times or more with that weird 'pours from the bottom' tea pot thingy ... I'd imagine that the frequency of tea is a furtherance of the in-joke, but it's a nice character 'thing' for Milton, I think. It certainly sets him up as being a bit more cultured/kind-natured than TG or anyone else.
Um...I dunno, maybe it's because I drink tea by the gallon, that I didn't pick up on it too much. I've a cup in front of me now! I did find it somewhat odd that they tea drinkers though, but I imagined that there wasn't a lot of coffee going around. I would imagine that America's fave beverage would be harder to grow.
I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....
In regards to the episode 4 clip: I find it hard to believe Maggie would be in the mood to get it on while Dad is barely hanging in there, on his last leg so to speak.
Glen, sure, but Maggie I doubt.
while the tea theory is interesting, i find it a bit unlikely, and nothing from that scene seemed odd or out of place to me....and yeah, the governor was drinking it, so unless he's willing to put the same stuff in his body, it's a slim chance there's anything going on behind the scenes with it.
and after re-watching the scene with the military ambush, it is a bit implausible that they'd get wiped out without firing a single shot, but they were all kinda having a joyous moment upon hearing that their lieutenant was alive and safe and had let their collective guard down. i didn't pay too close attention, but it seemed like they were all a bit young and the highest ranking dude was a corporal, which is an e-4, a rank that can be picked up in less than two years.
Yeah, it was a very awsome introduction of the the Governor. My wife and I really liked how he came off as a very charismatic and compassionate leader. My old lady's never read the comics, but even she said at the first commercial after his introduction that there was something off about him. And that was certainly rammed home after the last scene of the episode.
We both also liked the return of Merle. Much to both of our suprise, he seemed a far bit more docile than we had been expecting. We had a good long discussion about why this seems to be the case, mainly it being that 1. He's now in a situation where he's no longer the Alpha dog (really, who beyond Shane would have challenged him head on in the story leading up to the 'Guts' episode) 2. He seems to have a mixture of fear and respect for who the Governor is and what he is capable of doing, and that he likely was part of the group that saved Merle's life 3. He has to play nice or else he'll be at best kicked out of Woodbury.
What we both found interesting was the subtle things about him that were shown in this episode. The first being that he did seem genuinely sympathetic to Andrea for the loss of Amy, probably because he believes Darryl's dead at this time and he may have developed a little bit more respect for life given his own close brush with death. The other was that he did seem somewhat disgusted, or at the very least slightly remorseful, about having just murdered the group of unsuspecting guardsmen.
Honestly, I always thought that there was just a little bit more humanity in Merle than was allowed to be developed since he was only really in two episodes (excluding the phantasm of him in season two). Think about it for just a moment when they were on the rooftop, he did racially insult T-Dog and did beat the living crap out of him, but if you look at his face when he has the gun pointed at T-Dog and looks around at everyone else watching him like he's almost a wild animal, he grimace goes away a bit and he stops himself from pulling the trigger. Which, given the fact that he's a hardcore bigot who's now in a world where there are no real consequences for what he does, he could have easily killed T-Dog. Instead he spares his life, (grated he does hock a loogey on his shirt and rubs it in for good measure, likely an action to justify to himself that T-Dog was beneath him and didn't warrent killing-thus preserving his bigot concious).
We'll see how this turns out. But my wife and I do agree that it would certainly be one hell of a twist to have Merle help Michonne and Andrea escape the Governor, since most fans, including us, automatically assumed Merle would be one of the main bad guys in Season 3.
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Originally Posted by rgc2005
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