Australia's successful gun ban that the U.S. should follow

[Tricky]

Am I included in the sickening part? I've not said anywhere that I'm against guns, I've been around them all my life, I own some, I can shoot well, maintain them, I'm safe with them and I've even had some basic military instruction with the L85A2 when I was joining the territorial army, but at the same time I'm all for the kind of regulation that stops every man and his dog having them. I don't see what the problem is with that.

[babomb]

but at the same time I'm all for the kind of regulation that stops every man and his dog having them. I don't see what the problem is with that. The problem with that, at least here in the US, is that regulation like that isn't benign. It sets the stage for further regulation, regulation that has political undertones. The question is why would you wanna stop "every man" from having access to firearms? I can understand wanting to prevent criminals and the mentally ill from having access to them. And I understand that you aren't saying that nobody should have them. But when regulation like this is put in place in the US, it has a tendency to be continually expanded and exploited for political and monetary reasons. So the easiest way to avoid that is to prevent such regulation in the 1st place. Our government abuses every single power that it's given, and it ignores the fact that those powers are given to it by the people. So we have to be very cautious about giving our government additional power because inevitably it will be used against us.

[Neil]

Our government abuses every single power that it's given, and it ignores the fact that those powers are given to it by the people. So we have to be very cautious about giving our government additional power because inevitably it will be used against us. This seems a huge cultural difference between the US and UK? If we consider the UK, do you believe we are any less of a democracy than the US due to our gun legislation? Do you believe in truth we are any less free due to this? Do you think our political system is worse? I think we can honestly say that really if we compare the US and UK we can safely say UK citizens are no worse off freedom wise, or politically, due to gun legislation. Now, in the US, there culturally a huge 'love affair' with the gun. Maybe this even dates back to the war of independence, who knows? It almost seems instilled in American DNA somehow. Is this wrong? Can't say. Certainly I can't imagine if every US civilian lost their gun the government turning into some (more) evil despot and running amok. But that's me, over here, in a different culture with a very different outlook on guns. Ultimately, the US is so far down the gun ownership path I can't see how guns could be removed. They are so tied into the US culture , and so numerous, it would take generation(s) to remove them from public ownership. And there's simply not the will (need) to do that? I can understand wanting to prevent criminals and the mentally ill from having access to them. Now, over here in the UK, we're in the position where guns are not as prevalent as in the US. Personally I'm thankful for this. I'm certain if guns were as numerous as in the US gun crime and death rates would explode! I can't imagine how many domestic argument and disputes would end up in a shooting. How many road rage arguments would end up in a shooting. How many teenagers would end up taking a gun into school etc etc etc... As I've said over and over. Would I like to own a gun? Yes. But if me not owning one means druggies, rapists, angry kids and criminals most likely don't have one too, I'm happy to forgo that right. And once again, I'm only talking UK culture here! The outlook on gun ownership is clearly very different culturally between the US and UK, and indeed our situations are somewhat different. So our view/opinions on this topic don't transpose very well to each others countries.

[Tricky]

The question is why would you wanna stop "every man" from having access to firearms? Because in the UK there are groups of scrotes like these hanging around on every street corner and park in the cities and often towns as well And you absolutely would not want these feral teenagers to be carrying, its bad enough that they usually carry knives, if they had free access to guns then it would be a nightmare. Did you see the footage of the riots in the UK last summer? These were carried out by those type of people in large groups, some of whom were carrying illegal guns, there were several shootings and even footage of them trying to shoot down a police helicopter. If every one of them had been armed as well as those who were trying to stop them, it would have been a complete bloodbath.

[Neil]

^^ This (at least to some degree)! Again, purely commenting from UK perspective!

[AcesandEights]

This is just going to turn into yet another cyclical firearms argument

[Neil]

This is just going to turn into yet another cyclical firearms argument Possibly, but I don't see why it should!? What makes you say that?

[Sammich]

And you absolutely would not want these feral teenagers to be carrying, its bad enough that they usually carry knives, if they had free access to guns then it would be a nightmare. Guess what? Even after all of your country's gun bans GANGS ARE CARRYING ILLEGAL GUNS and in fact gun crimes have gone UP not down since the bans. Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold. The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent. In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold. In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled. The statistic will fuel fears that the police are struggling to contain gang-related violence, in which the carrying of a firearm has become increasingly common place.

[Tricky]

Guess what? Even after all of your country's gun bans GANGS ARE CARRYING ILLEGAL GUNS and in fact gun crimes have gone UP not down since the bans. .[/I] Yup, plenty of ex-IRA guns and others smuggled in from the aftermath of the Balkans war in the 90's are in circulation among inner city gangs, but they still arent enough in numbers to be particular threats to anyone other than rival gangs. No reason for the rest of us to tool up "just in case", just let the animals wipe each other out. Whatever guns they have I can guarantee you our armed police units can easily outgun them.

[babomb]

This seems a huge cultural difference between the US and UK? If we consider the UK, do you believe we are any less of a democracy than the US due to our gun legislation? Do you believe in truth we are any less free due to this? Do you think our political system is worse? I think we can honestly say that really if we compare the US and UK we can safely say UK citizens are no worse off freedom wise, or politically, due to gun legislation. Now, in the US, there culturally a huge 'love affair' with the gun. Maybe this even dates back to the war of independence, who knows? It almost seems instilled in American DNA somehow. Is this wrong? Can't say. Certainly I can't imagine if every US civilian lost their gun the government turning into some (more) evil despot and running amok. But that's me, over here, in a different culture with a very different outlook on guns. Ultimately, the US is so far down the gun ownership path I can't see how guns could be removed. They are so tied into the US culture , and so numerous, it would take generation(s) to remove them from public ownership. And there's simply not the will (need) to do that? Now, over here in the UK, we're in the position where guns are not as prevalent as in the US. Personally I'm thankful for this. I'm certain if guns were as numerous as in the US gun crime and death rates would explode! I can't imagine how many domestic argument and disputes would end up in a shooting. How many road rage arguments would end up in a shooting. How many teenagers would end up taking a gun into school etc etc etc... As I've said over and over. Would I like to own a gun? Yes. But if me not owning one means druggies, rapists, angry kids and criminals most likely don't have one too, I'm happy to forgo that right. And once again, I'm only talking UK culture here! The outlook on gun ownership is clearly very different culturally between the US and UK, and indeed our situations are somewhat different. So our view/opinions on this topic don't transpose very well to each others countries. In the US, the gun is seen as a symbol of freedom by many people. To those of us who guard and value the constitution as it is, having the right to own a firearm is a reminder that the constitution is still an effective document that grants the people inalienable rights and limits the powers of the state. If you remove guns, that means you remove the 2nd amm, which means that the constitution is no longer a viable document. Which then means that it no longer limits the powers of the state, and in turn no longer ensures the inalienable rights of the people. I wouldn't say that the UK is any less of a democracy because there's less guns. And I can't say that I think you're less free because of it, since I don't know what it's like to live there. But I do know that the US government doesn't do things for the good of the people. So when they make decisions on things and write up legislature, it's never for altruistic reasons. It's always for the purpose of gaining more power, so that the people at the top can make more money. I'm not sure where the UK stands on this. Since the UK and the US are always allies for the most part, and the power elite are not bound by borders, my guess would be that the UK is also subject to this same BS. Naturally, the details are gonna differ because it's a different culture. There's just no way to avoid noticing the swift trend toward fascism in the US. We got militarized cops that aren't held accountable for their crimes due to laws regarding national security, we have ever increasing surveillance on citizens, our government is trying to outlaw reporting on government corruption, trying to outlaw and prevent people from being self sufficient, trying to prevent people from speaking out or assembling, preventing people from seeking justice against people in power for their crimes. They put chemicals in our food and water, they use propaganda to guide our decisions, they force us to be dependent on things that destroy the environment and in turn destroy us ourselves. They slap people with huge fines for things like feeding poor children without a permit, or supplying bottled water to relief workers without a permit. Or selling produce to people from your farm without a permit. Bottom line is that our leaders don't value our lives or our prosperity. Not one bit! So for those same leaders to say that they want to limit firearm ownership to prevent the deaths of innocent people, well, you'd have to be a fool to believe that.

[Tricky]

The UK government isnt particularly totalitarian like that, sure they meddle in our every day lives in small and sometimes irritating ways, but not in a way that would make you think they are out to get you, unless you're one of those criminals who cant seem to keep out of trouble, so is always accusing the police of hassling them just because they always get caught doing things they shouldn't be. The police can be a bit political on occasion but the military is sworn to the crown rather than the government, so there's no danger of a Syria situation where the government sets its forces on its own people. We may be allies and it is sometimes joked that the UK is americas lapdog on the world stage, but I think the ordinary people live under very different regimes. From what you're saying there babomb, the US government is getting more and more like the regimes it is so keen to topple in other countries!

[babomb]

From what you're saying there babomb, the US government is getting more and more like the regimes it is so keen to topple in other countries! Exactly! Except that those little 3rd world countries use religion as justification, and their resources are extremely limited. In the US, the resources that can be utilized are seemingly endless. So we have a regime that doesn't value the lives or well being of the people, that seeks to control and regulate every aspect of our lives, with no qualms about killing or allowing the deaths of large numbers of people, and they have seemingly infinite resources at their disposal to use to that end. I think people from abroad look at the US and see people with nice homes, nice cars, flashy clothes and jewelry, or fat people with the time and money to get up to 300lbs while doing nothing but watching TV and playing videogames, or celebrities. These are the things you would see from the media relating to the US if you aren't from here. But TV shows like "The Hills", "The OC", "Keeping up with the Kardashians", "Runs House", that kind of shit is so far seperated from the reality of the majority of Americans. The reality of the majority of typical Americans is nothing like you see on TV. All that shit is fake! That's all commercialized and built around product placement to make us yearn for that lavish lifestyle that we'll never have. That's why they call it the "American Dream", because you have to be asleep to buy into it. So when we say things about needing guns to protect our liberties, other people don't really understand why we would feel that way. Most people think we're either a little crazy, a little over-dramatic, and very selfish. Because if you look at the US through the prism of the media, Americans have it made. The US is this rich nation, where you can get anything you want, be anything you want, do anything you want and look and feel great doing it. But that isn't reality!