TWD 9x01 "A New Beginning" episode discussion... **SPOILERS**

[MinionZombie]

Really enjoyed that. After the dwindling of Fear's 4th season, it was great to see the main show hit back and show us how it's done. The wider theme of civilisation re-establishing itself was very present here, and staging the opening chunk in a museum was quite appropriate - the past world meets the new world, the tools of past finding new relevance and use, and the creation of "a more perfect union". You can see much tighter writing here than in Fear - e.g. Michonne sees the stuff about the Civil War and establishing a better America, then she's the one to propose a "charter", but then clash that with her as a mother and being the one to try and shield children's eyes from very adult things happening at night. Speaking of - I was surprised Gregory got killed in this episode, but it's a good bold move. Maggie could see what was coming and didn't fart about. Although I imagine it'll have ramifications as not everyone voted for Maggie, and even those who did might not like this different side of her. That said, though, fuck Gregory! Although it's a bummer to see Xander Berkeley leave the show as his performance was so good. Carol/Daryl and Carol/Ezekiel stuff was all very nice indeed. Interesting that Daryl has kind of been given Dwight's 'reluctant leader of Sanctuary' plotline, at least for the time being, but it makes sense. As mentioned, the spider walker was a really good scene, very effective and creepy and had that icky sense of 'fun horror' about it. Always nice to see a group of the big players working together with all their routines well established. Seeing things like the spray painted routes etc speaks to larger organisation. A lot going on in this episode, so plenty to chew on and no dawdling - I loved that - I dearly hope they can keep that up (perhaps not always to this degree, but I hope they pace it better than the previous couple of seasons). A strong premiere episode from Angela Kang, so bravo to her. Loads of bits and pieces that I really enjoyed here, such as Judith painting her picture as Michonne and Rick watch on. Feels good to have TWD back on my telly box. - - - Updated - - - Been thinking about the episode all day and I really enjoyed it. From the zombie apocalypse 'desolation porn' to various character moments (e.g. Daryl and Carol's chat, Rick & Michonne - in Negan's bed, I think?), there was so much going on. Watching Talking Dead and it was encouraging to hear Kang talk about the decision to hang Gregory in this episode and not, as we would have normally expected, drag it out for a few episodes. We've seen plenty of dribs and drabs of that plotline drawn out from seasons 5b through 8, so to have the big climax to it in this episode felt good - moreso because Maggie dealt with the problem swiftly once it was clear there was no alternative (i.e. none of that silly bullshit like in FearTWD season 4b with the crazy face-writing lady). I'm hoping we'll see more of this type of thing from the writers now that Kang is showrunner. TWD 9x01 Memes:   https://deadshed.blogspot.com/2018/1...dead-9x01.html

[shootemindehead]

Not bad. About time that little rat was strung up.

[JDP]

A year and a half and all these people still haven't got their shit together yet and are just starting to look for the tools to re-start society again...??? I guess that after the Savior war they all just took a very long vacation!

[Moon Knight]

Brett Butler who played Tammy Rose did a great job with the character. Well done. This is an episode I can watch again. Haven’t done that in a while.

[facestabber]

A year and a half and all these people still haven't got their shit together yet and are just starting to look for the tools to re-start society again...??? I guess that after the Savior war they all just took a very long vacation! I'd say they have done a solid job of surviving. They seem to have good communications/teamwork. The roads mapped out and the times they are safe to travel them. They are producing ethanol and IIRC Alexandria and Hilltop had farms and growing ops prior. Well unless the bombing at Alexandria destroyed it. Sanctuary is hungry but no one is starving to death. Speaking of which why is Regina allowed to be around? She had some scum bag Negan love in here didnt she? She should be jailed at minimum. Seem like a safe bet she'd be secretly building a coup.

[Moon Knight]

I'd say they have done a solid job of surviving. They seem to have good communications/teamwork. The roads mapped out and the times they are safe to travel them. They are producing ethanol and IIRC Alexandria and Hilltop had farms and growing ops prior. Well unless the bombing at Alexandria destroyed it. Sanctuary is hungry but no one is starving to death. Speaking of which why is Regina allowed to be around? She had some scum bag Negan love in here didnt she? She should be jailed at minimum. Seem like a safe bet she'd be secretly building a coup. That’s how I feel about Arat. She’s the one that killed Olivia.

[JDP]

I'd say they have done a solid job of surviving. They seem to have good communications/teamwork. The roads mapped out and the times they are safe to travel them. They are producing ethanol and IIRC Alexandria and Hilltop had farms and growing ops prior. Well unless the bombing at Alexandria destroyed it. Sanctuary is hungry but no one is starving to death. Speaking of which why is Regina allowed to be around? She had some scum bag Negan love in here didnt she? She should be jailed at minimum. Seem like a safe bet she'd be secretly building a coup. For a year and half they seem surprisingly "stuck" at a similar level they were in before the Savior war. They are even just now starting to look for things like horse-drawn carts and plows to help in the "rebuilding society" process. Plus the relationships between these groups and leading characters are far from being settled. Is it believable, for example, that a sneaky scoundrel like Gregory would have waited this long before making a move to try to eliminate Maggie so that he could regain control of his own community? Or for Maggie or Daryl to voice their opposition to Rick for having spared Negan? I agree with your comments about some Saviors. Some of them should at least have been jailed or banished, like they did it to Negan and Dwight.

[MinionZombie]

A year and a half and all these people still haven't got their shit together yet and are just starting to look for the tools to re-start society again...??? I guess that after the Savior war they all just took a very long vacation! I'd say they have done a solid job of surviving. They seem to have good communications/teamwork. The roads mapped out and the times they are safe to travel them. They are producing ethanol and IIRC Alexandria and Hilltop had farms and growing ops prior. Well unless the bombing at Alexandria destroyed it. Sanctuary is hungry but no one is starving to death. Speaking of which why is Regina allowed to be around? She had some scum bag Negan love in here didnt she? She should be jailed at minimum. Seem like a safe bet she'd be secretly building a coup. For a year and half they seem surprisingly "stuck" at a similar level they were in before the Savior war. They are even just now starting to look for things like horse-drawn carts and plows to help in the "rebuilding society" process. Plus the relationships between these groups and leading characters are far from being settled. Is it believable, for example, that a sneaky scoundrel like Gregory would have waited this long before making a move to try to eliminate Maggie so that he could regain control of his own community? Or for Maggie or Daryl to voice their opposition to Rick for having spared Negan? I agree with your comments about some Saviors. Some of them should at least have been jailed or banished, like they did it to Negan and Dwight. They've been busy, and they weren't 'only just' starting to look for horse drawn carts etc - notice how they arrived in DC on horses and carts. They were getting more supplies and vehicles and tools. We saw various big shots of the communities and they've clearly been very busy, especially Hilltop and Alexandria - the latter, of course, required a lot of rebuilding, so that would have taken plenty of time. They will have also been busy clearing certain areas, creating safe routes (as we saw - they had their various routes which had already been well travelled, they had their communications technique down pat etc), so they've not been sat on their arses at all. They've been fermenting corn fuel, they've been growing crops, they've been rebuilding etc etc etc. As for Gregory - the election was only held quite recently, until then it will have been 'Maggie is in charge through merit' (she became defacto leader through action and capability, while Gregory lost his position of power through inaction and inability). So Gregory's grievance over being voted out of office, as it were, is pretty new and raw. The death of Ken is his first real chance to drive a wedge into Maggie's leadership (the speech at the funeral, him getting Ken's sober father drunk and using him to attempt the assassination of Maggie). Dwight - IIRC it was partly self-imposed exile. Those who wanted to kill him when it was all over took a different view. They didn't want to kill him, but they didn't want him around, and likewise Dwight didn't want to hang around either. In terms of other Lieutenants etc, they were under Negan's command, but they were also open to putting down their weapons and working on a better solution post-AOW. Indeed, the whole setup is that Sanctuary is essentially Germany post-WW1 (no weapons) and Berlin post-WW2 (essentially carved up amongst the allied victors, but in-turn their responsibility). A year and a half has passed and they've all had plenty to do to not only get their communities back up and running to a relatively healthy degree, but they've also had a lot to decompress from personally - deaths of loved ones, the ravages of war etc. 18 months can go quick when you've got plenty to be getting on with, and tensions by their very nature tend to simmer rather than launch out immediately.

[facestabber]

For a year and half they seem surprisingly "stuck" at a similar level they were in before the Savior war. They are even just now starting to look for things like horse-drawn carts and plows to help in the "rebuilding society" process. Plus the relationships between these groups and leading characters are far from being settled. Is it believable, for example, that a sneaky scoundrel like Gregory would have waited this long before making a move to try to eliminate Maggie so that he could regain control of his own community? Or for Maggie or Daryl to voice their opposition to Rick for having spared Negan? I agree with your comments about some Saviors. Some of them should at least have been jailed or banished, like they did it to Negan and Dwight. Yea I'd have to say Gregorys 18 month wait seemed excessively long for a power driven guy like him. Add to that, Gabriel survived Gregory's shenanigans at the Sanctuary and would have spoke to Rick and Co about what he did to him. At minimum he should have been jailed. As far as farming goes, I believe that had and were using Diesel powered tractors and the like. I'm sure there was some complacency to return to old school, but lack of parts and repair eventually took its toll. Maybe the tractors are still operational, but beginning to wear out so they are trying to copy animal driven tools. A modern day blacksmith, which I wouldnt think would be too common anyway, probably never vested much time if any to building century old tool designs. So for the group to get creative and seek out museum pieces as a guide to copy seemed pretty cool to me.

[MinionZombie]

There was one little pang of sadness watching the episode, for me - when one of the characters mentions someone wants to apprentice with the blacksmith I was like, ohhh ... that should be Carl. (As it was in the comics). But, well, that decision is on Gimple & AMC's heads.

[Moon Knight]

There was one little pang of sadness watching the episode, for me - when one of the characters mentions someone wants to apprentice with the blacksmith I was like, ohhh ... that should be Carl. (As it was in the comics). But, well, that decision is on Gimple & AMC's heads. They even made the blacksmith a jerk. I had a few nitpicks but that change was kinda unnecessary.

[JDP]

They've been busy, and they weren't 'only just' starting to look for horse drawn carts etc - notice how they arrived in DC on horses and carts. They were getting more supplies and vehicles and tools. We saw various big shots of the communities and they've clearly been very busy, especially Hilltop and Alexandria - the latter, of course, required a lot of rebuilding, so that would have taken plenty of time. They will have also been busy clearing certain areas, creating safe routes (as we saw - they had their various routes which had already been well travelled, they had their communications technique down pat etc), so they've not been sat on their arses at all. They've been fermenting corn fuel, they've been growing crops, they've been rebuilding etc etc etc. As for Gregory - the election was only held quite recently, until then it will have been 'Maggie is in charge through merit' (she became defacto leader through action and capability, while Gregory lost his position of power through inaction and inability). So Gregory's grievance over being voted out of office, as it were, is pretty new and raw. The death of Ken is his first real chance to drive a wedge into Maggie's leadership (the speech at the funeral, him getting Ken's sober father drunk and using him to attempt the assassination of Maggie). Dwight - IIRC it was partly self-imposed exile. Those who wanted to kill him when it was all over took a different view. They didn't want to kill him, but they didn't want him around, and likewise Dwight didn't want to hang around either. In terms of other Lieutenants etc, they were under Negan's command, but they were also open to putting down their weapons and working on a better solution post-AOW. Indeed, the whole setup is that Sanctuary is essentially Germany post-WW1 (no weapons) and Berlin post-WW2 (essentially carved up amongst the allied victors, but in-turn their responsibility). A year and a half has passed and they've all had plenty to do to not only get their communities back up and running to a relatively healthy degree, but they've also had a lot to decompress from personally - deaths of loved ones, the ravages of war etc. 18 months can go quick when you've got plenty to be getting on with, and tensions by their very nature tend to simmer rather than launch out immediately. Seems like an awful lot of time to make such few achievements. The only community that endured substantial damage was Alexandria. The other ones were all functional when the war ended. There is hardly much excuse for such little progress after one year and half! These guys should already be building carts, plows, rudimentary wind-mills, etc. They've had plenty of time to be looking into these things. They even have access to all the info on such things conveniently collected by that lady (forget her name now) that showed up out of nowhere. Gregory is not the kind of guy who would sit around for a year and half just "waiting" to see if his old job conveniently lands on his lap again. He was already trying to get rid of Maggie and get his former place back before all this. There is no reason why he should have waited this long to continue trying. Do you expect anyone to believe that the death of Ken is the only thing that happened in all this time that Gregory would have tried to use to his advantage and against Maggie??? Very unrealistic to think that that was the only zombie-induced death among the Hilltoppers in all this time! Dwight was certainly banished. The reason why he fully agreed with the sentence is because he knows what the alternative is: DEATH. Better to be free and fend for yourself than be six feet under! The "we were under Negan's orders" excuse does not work for some of the Saviors. Some of these guys acted out of pure malice on their own, even when Negan wasn't around or did not give any specific orders for doing something rotten. There is a reason why Dwight, for example, cannot use this excuse to try to exonerate himself. He acted like a total a-hole, even when he himself was escaping from Negan (Dwight left Daryl stranded in the middle of hostile territory without transport & weapons when he in fact was helping Dwight and his companions escape the Saviors... for that alone he already deserved to die!)

[Moon Knight]

Gregory just needed a reason to manipulate others to do his dirty work. That’s not happening over night.

[MinionZombie]

Gregory just needed a reason to manipulate others to do his dirty work. That’s not happening over night. Indeed. Gregory can only do so much if the Hilltoppers don't respect him. Hell, those people chose Maggie as defacto leader because of Gregory's piss poor leadership. I'd imagine he would have laid low for a good while, let time heal some wounds, then he'd start coming out of his shell again. The death of Ken was the perfect opportunity for him to exploit a situation to his benefit (in the wake of an official election which was only held relatively recently). Said election was probably what got Gregory's gears grinding again, too - then he pounced on the first chance he got, having quietly seethed for a good while. He was a politician, he knew how to bide his time and wait for an opportunity. Damage to the communities is not just physical property damage, it's also in terms of the people they lost in the war, the divisions created across communities or within communities. The emotional fallout from such an event would linger long and hard - there'd be a fair bit of PTSD going around, quite possibly - and much like in the wake of WW2, they can't just bounce back to normality in the blink of an eye. Crops are seasonal, supplies need to be gathered from a world that has already been ravaged and pillaged (with fuel becoming scarce in the intervening time - so horse-drawn supply runs will take even longer), walls and defences need to be rebuilt, walker herds need to be redirected, travel routes need to be opened up - all that and more with fewer people than they had before. Back to the WW2 example - Britain took years to get back on its feet after the ravages of WW2. Rationing alone continued until 1954, for crying out loud. All Out War in TWD has been modelled on world wars in many ways, and as such the communities aren't going to bounce back in a flash.

[JDP]

Indeed. Gregory can only do so much if the Hilltoppers don't respect him. Hell, those people chose Maggie as defacto leader because of Gregory's piss poor leadership. I'd imagine he would have laid low for a good while, let time heal some wounds, then he'd start coming out of his shell again. The death of Ken was the perfect opportunity for him to exploit a situation to his benefit (in the wake of an official election which was only held relatively recently). Said election was probably what got Gregory's gears grinding again, too - then he pounced on the first chance he got, having quietly seethed for a good while. He was a politician, he knew how to bide his time and wait for an opportunity. Damage to the communities is not just physical property damage, it's also in terms of the people they lost in the war, the divisions created across communities or within communities. The emotional fallout from such an event would linger long and hard - there'd be a fair bit of PTSD going around, quite possibly - and much like in the wake of WW2, they can't just bounce back to normality in the blink of an eye. Crops are seasonal, supplies need to be gathered from a world that has already been ravaged and pillaged (with fuel becoming scarce in the intervening time - so horse-drawn supply runs will take even longer), walls and defences need to be rebuilt, walker herds need to be redirected, travel routes need to be opened up - all that and more with fewer people than they had before. Back to the WW2 example - Britain took years to get back on its feet after the ravages of WW2. Rationing alone continued until 1954, for crying out loud. All Out War in TWD has been modelled on world wars in many ways, and as such the communities aren't going to bounce back in a flash. Again, extremely unrealistic to think that Ken's death was the only thing that happened at the Hilltop in a year and half that someone like Gregory would have tried to use to his advantage to get rid of Maggie. I bet there were more zombie-related deaths in all this time that he could have used against Maggie as well. There is not much comparison with WW2. Britain got the heck bombed out of it day & night, plus it also had to send large numbers of troops to fight overseas in a bunch of places, and the whole world was strongly affected by the same war. Easy to see why it took years to recover. The only thing similar in this smaller scale war was the bombing of Alexandria. But they certainly had enough man-power left to fix the place after the war in quite less than a year and half, since the majority of the Alexandrians in fact escaped the bombing. The Kingdom lost many men, but they did not suffer any significant damages. They did not have to make much of an effort to rebuild anything.