TWD 8x15 "Worth" episode discussion... **SPOILERS**

[shootemindehead]

Eugene cannot be held accountable for what some wacko does with his ideas. Yes he fucking can, especially when those ideas are being used to kill the people who risked their lives to save his. You don't get to simply Pontius pilate your way out of shitty decisions and claim no foul. - - - Updated - - - There were ashy footprints leading through and away from the burned bodies, Daryl fell for Eugene's trick. Yeh, but I think the world and his wife knew where the fat fuck was. That scene may have played out better if Daryl stayed behind and dug through the ashes and Rosie ran off a few metres to look for him, but still couldn't find him. There are numerous places Eugene could have disappeared to. As it is people are simply going "check the ashes...check the ashes...he's in the ashes...oh FFS "

[JDP]

Yes he fucking can, especially when those ideas are being used to kill the people who risked their lives to save his. You don't get to simply Pontius pilate your way out of shitty decisions and claim no foul. Then you would have to condemn everyone whose ideas have been twisted by others into something different than originally intended. It's not their fault some other people did that with them. In this particular case, Eugene never said that someone should be actually purposefully infected. That was Negan doing his insane things.

[MinionZombie]

No, it was sarcasm. The comparison stands. Eugene cannot be held accountable for what some wacko does with his ideas. You seem to think I'm laying all accountability at Eugene's feet - I'm not, and haven't - what I've been saying is that he is partly responsible. Had Eugene never come up with the idea for grossing out the Hilltop then Negan wouldn't have had his twisted idea (the man's got previous for twisting ideas to messed up ends). Diminished responsibility on Eugene's part, but he still had a clear hand in a chain of events that led to the deaths of many innocents. TWD has used this theme throughout, most notably in the Morgan/Carol clash of ideologies. Everything has consequences, any choice - including making no choice - and you play your part in a catalogue of events. Eugene had to say something in the moment to save his own skin, understandably so, and he chose to come up with the 'use the walker guts' line of possibilities - advising a known nutjob who weaponised a baseball bat in grand fashion and gleefully uses it. Eugene is partly responsible. That scene may have played out better if Daryl stayed behind and dug through the ashes and Rosie ran off a few metres to look for him, but still couldn't find him. There are numerous places Eugene could have disappeared to. As it is people are simply going "check the ashes...check the ashes...he's in the ashes...oh FFS " Some different blocking to the scene would have helped. For me it was more the amount of time it'd take to hide yourself under those ashes (he seemed to be under some kind of sheet). It would have played smoother if Daryl and Rosita headed off in one direction, but then circled back to the entranceway that led to the ash piles. Then you could have also, as you suggest, have Rosita glance at the ash piles and kick one of them - but Daryl tears off after the fake tracks that Eugene laid down and Rosita follows suit - then have Eugene pop up a step or two away from where Rosita was kicking about. Just very slight tweaks in the blocking, but in the heat of the moment on-location you might not have time to get all these nuances down.

[shootemindehead]

Then you would have to condemn everyone whose ideas have been twisted by others into something different than originally intended. It's not their fault some other people did that with them. In this particular case, Eugene never said that someone should be actually purposefully infected. That was Negan doing his insane things. Making bullets or poisioned melee weaponry to kill people is what the intention is. Eugene damn well knows this and cannot wash his hands of it. He condemns himself.

[MinionZombie]

Making bullets or poisioned melee weaponry to kill people is what the intention is. Eugene damn well knows this and cannot wash his hands of it. He condemns himself. Aye! More than the 'chemical warfare', Eugene's actively manufacturing bullets - yes, under duress initially - but now he's very deliberate in his actions having been driven there partly by his own side (understandably) considering him a turncoat and partly by his own (generally understandable) weakness ... basically, giving into the pressures he's under. So he's partly responsible for the Hilltoppers dying from infected arrows, and he's directly responsible for anyone who dies as a result of those bullets he's manufacturing. Now, that would have always been the case if he was making them for Team Rick, but the case is very different now - he's making them for the enemy to be used against his former comrades (who are obviously quite pissed off about everything that Eugene has done to help the Saviours to save his own skin). To be fair, Eugene's personal fortitude is nothing like Daryl who refused to give in to better himself - he opted to remain imprisoned and in the "A" clothes doing slave work and shit jobs eating pet food sarnies.

[Moon Knight]

It’s obvious Eugene is gonna make faulty bullets. That’s why they had Gabriel bring up the idea and Eugene verbally abused by Rosita so Eugene can really think about what he’s doing and what he can be doing. Eugene put Gabriel back on the line and told him to follow his lead. Rosita’s verbiage was carefully written to finally get through to Eugene. Honestly, at this point, he’s done too much harm. I actually really dislike the character. We shall see.

[shootemindehead]

Mmmm....I dunno Moonie. I was thinking that might be the angle they were going for. But, after Rosie's threat, I think he may go full "Saviour". I have a thunderous hated for the gobshite (really well played by Josh McDemmit ), even if I understand the predicament that the character is in. Also, I think the character is autistic and incapable of rationalising any situation truly. So, in that respect I understand a certain diminished responsibility. However, he most definitely is intelligent and compos mentis enough to understand the ramifications of proffering your ideas to psychos like Negan. He is also a coward and a (murderous) traitor to the folk that risked their lives (and died) to help him and if friendship and loyalty to that friendship are high qualities in human beings, cowardice and betrayal are the corresponding low points.

[JDP]

Making bullets or poisioned melee weaponry to kill people is what the intention is. Eugene damn well knows this and cannot wash his hands of it. He condemns himself. The poisoned melee weapons was actually Negan's devious twist on Eugene's proposition. Eugene did not actually propose this. He was proposing a zombie apocalypse version of an old scare tactic to make the enemy surrender: launching zombie body parts over the Hilltop's walls. He never said anything about purposefully infecting some people for sure and then letting them turn into zombies. Making bullets was the initial purpose of bringing Eugene to the Sanctuary. And as Eugene pointed out, he in fact did this to save Rosita's life. Negan would likely have killed her if Eugene had not voluntarily stepped forward and confessed that he was the real "bullet-maker". So Eugene's situation is really a complex one. He got into this mess while he was in fact trying to help his friends. Then he mysteriously got "forgotten" by them and left stranded at the Sanctuary to his uncertain fate (Rick & company did not move a finger to try to help Eugene get out of there.) In order to survive, Eugene simply "adapted" to this new situation by integrating into the Savior ranks. He did not really have much of any other choice than to become one of the "bad guys".

[MinionZombie]

It’s obvious Eugene is gonna make faulty bullets. That’s why they had Gabriel bring up the idea and Eugene verbally abused by Rosita so Eugene can really think about what he’s doing and what he can be doing. Hopefully he does! Well, it's either a case of he does or he doesn't. You're right in that him berating Gabriel was there for a reason. However, I believe he tests a batch of his bullets in the finale - so either he's a bastard traitor or he's made a 'good batch' or he's muddled in a bunch of shite rounds to randomly screw over Saviours as they fire.

[Moon Knight]

The way he was instructing Gabriel is what made me believe he is about to take Gabriel’s original plan and run with it ultimately. The first scene in this episode between the two was put there for a reason. His last line was also channeling what Rosita had yelled at him.

[JDP]

There was a scene in one of the previews for the next episode where Eugene seems to be threatening Gabriel with a gun. He might indeed have gone "full bad" (as a result of the previous violent encounter with his former friends.)