The Washington Bunkers

[MoonSylver]

Funny thing is, I was just about to post the same thing -- that is that I once again agree with Kraken, but you beat me to it Moon. Weird. Triplets? You're reading my mind too? (actually, I was just looking for a creative way to once again agree with out feeling repetitive.)

[krakenslayer]

actually kraken, the currency being used in land is old style (before the zombie outbreak) US dollars. i put up a screen shot in a shitstorm thread about the use of money in land that clearly shows that they are US dollars. in fact you can find said screen shot in post #50 in this thread: http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/s...referrerid=286 The currency might have been physically the same, although I suspect he printed his own currency that looked superficially similar (i.e. didn't have a big grinning picture of Dennis Hopper in place of GW) for patriotic and "sentimental" reasons, since old-style currency would be so easy to scavenge from the ruins it would cause Zimbabwean-scale hyperinflation. But whether or not this was the case, Kaufman still had to horde enough of it, distribute it and build it back up into a working economy. Geez Kracken, are you my lost Scottish twin brother or something? Every time you post something, I find myself in 100% agreement! You better say something I can disagree about, or I'm gonna think you're reading my mind while I'm asleep or something.... Funny thing is, I was just about to post the same thing -- that is that I once again agree with Kraken, but you beat me to it Moon. Yeah, I know this was discussed before, but again I agree that DAY had to have been much more than three months in, and Land had to be several years after the fall. We're just more intelligent than everyone else here and invariably come to the correct conclusion.

[Safari Mike]

Ok, if you are going to live completely off the grid and in isolation, then trapping is your mainstay, not hunting etc... Better brush up on snares, traps, edible plants, cooking unsafe plants to make them safe, etc. A great book on desert environs is by David Alloway, "Desert Survival Skills".

[Philly_SWAT]

Incidentally, how long after the fall of civilisation do you guys think Day and Land take place? I've heard people say three months and three years, respectively, but I think longer. If Day really was set three months after the outbreak, that probably places it around the time of the latter stages of Dawn, and I get the feeling the people have been in the bunkers a lot longer than that. Not only that, but the city we see at the start looks very weathered. I'd say a year minimum. The original script was set very specifically five years after the outbreak, but that's probably too long in the case of the final movie - I think three years would be a sensible maximum. Three years wouldn't be enough for Kaufman to build a stable (ish) mini-nation from scratch with its own currency - which it is hinted is shared with other settlements - and military. I'd guess it would take at least five to ten years to get to that stage. Also, the overgrowth of plants and dilapidated nature of the abandoned towns suggests a period of several years of neglect. Geez Kracken, are you my lost Scottish twin brother or something? Every time you post something, I find myself in 100% agreement! Funny thing is, I was just about to post the same thing -- that is that I once again agree with Kraken, but you beat me to it Moon. Yeah, I know this was discussed before, but again I agree that DAY had to have been much more than three months in, and Land had to be several years after the fall. The three of you seem to have observed, either consciously or subconsciously, what I have been saying all along, that Day happens a looooong time after Dawn, not 3 months, as many people like to say. As far as kracken and Kaufan's currency, as already pointed out, it was US dollars. But you are right, 3 years would not seem to be enough time to rebuild a society from scratch. Therefore, it makes much more sense that Kaufman and company in the Green were not "rebuilding" a society, but holding onto the old one. As I have said before, downtown Pittsburgh is unique in that it would be one of the few downtown areas in the country that could easily be cordoned off in this manner. It is much more likely that they held the "Golden Triangle" not long after the outbreak, rather than think that the downtown had fallen like everywhere else and they decided to go in and retake it. I mean think about it. If downtown Pitt was overrun by zombies, you know how difficult it would be to retake it? And all of those people living the high life in the tower, worried about buying champagne and fine clothes from the stores...you think that they had the mental and physical abilities to help in such a massive undertaking? I dont. So what were all of them doing to stay alive when the triangle was not a safe zone? And for that matter, all the peasants on the streets? And when you add up all the guys Kaufman seems to have as "paid muscle" (Cholo, Riley, the Dead Reckoning gang, his personal security) that would not be enough guys to take over a major downtown area. Therefore, it is much more likely that the city was HELD, not re-taken. Therefore to address kracken's original question "Incidentally, how long after the fall of civilisation do you guys think Day and Land take place?" I submit that I think the events in Land take place within a couple of years after the initial outbreak, and the events in Day take place quite some time after that.

[krakenslayer]

Therefore to address kracken's original question "Incidentally, how long after the fall of civilisation do you guys think Day and Land take place?" I submit that I think the events in Land take place within a couple of years after the initial outbreak, and the events in Day take place quite some time after that. So you think Day took place after Land? Wow, I'd never considered that; I always assumed Land was chronologically the last in the timeline. Interesting... I still think Land takes place in the far future. In addition to the dilapidation and desolation of the outside world, and the whole seen-it-all attitude of the survivors, I remember in the original script, during the prison scene, when asked about his life "before", Riley says something to the effect of "I had a normal life, went to college, studied engineering... then one day everything changed...". This tells us that Riley was in his early twenties when the outbreak began, and since he's at least in his early thirties by the time of Land, it places it about ten years after the outbreak.

[SRP76]

They didn't have 3 years of fuel in the tanks in Day. So it couldn't take place after Land. And I find it ridiculous that Rhodes would still be impeccably clean, with top-of-the-line hairstyling after 3 years in a cave.

[krakenslayer]

They didn't have 3 years of fuel in the tanks in Day. So it couldn't take place after Land. And I find it ridiculous that Rhodes would still be impeccably clean, with top-of-the-line hairstyling after 3 years in a cave. Well, I sort of agree, sort of disagree. No, I don't think Day took place after Land, but I do think it took place about three years after the initial outbreak, with Land happening a long time after that. Rhodes does look impeccable, but I'd say that's due to his control-freak, disciplinarian nature.

[Thorn]

Well, I sort of agree, sort of disagree. No, I don't think Day took place after Land, but I do think it took place about three years after the initial outbreak, with Land happening a long time after that. Rhodes does look impeccable, but I'd say that's due to his control-freak, disciplinarian nature. For what it is worth at all, from the original Day script George planned Day to take place 5 years after Night. DAY OF THE DEAD (The original script) by George A. Romero FADE IN: 1 EXT. THE EMPTY STREET OF A CITY - DAY No people. A FEW CARS AND TRUCKS are parked at odd angles, abandoned. A TITLE FADES IN, one phrase at a time. FIVE YEARS... SINCE THE DEAD FIRST WALKED. Also if you read a number of the interviews about Land even ones that compare it to ...of the Dead they mention how they went out of their way to make the zombies look as if they had aged, been walking around dead for some time decaying. They added prosthetics to sink in their eyes, used clothing that was much more abused and weathered to show passing of time, and the make up was done as such to show that these corpses had been rotting for quite sometime. Skin pulling away in shreds, showing muscle underneath. I will have to disagree with the assumption land takes place after Day and I would be glad to cite exact quotes to help prove out my point if you like.

[krakenslayer]

Yep, the zombies in both Land and Day are very heavily weathered. I will have to disagree with the assumption land takes place after Day and I would be glad to cite exact quotes to help prove out my point if you like. By all means, I'd be interested to read them.

[SRP76]

Doesn't matter what the Day script says, since that movie never saw the light of day. What appeared on the screen is a completely different movie. And Land was written based on what happened in Day of the Dead, not on what happened in a script that was never shot. Still haven't explained how you think they didn't burn through their fuel in 3 years. The power would have been off for months/years by the time the movie started, if they'd been there that long. Also, the limited alcohol these people brought with them wouldn't last 3 years. And where did Rhodes keep getting his hair gel from? Don't try to tell me the military keeps a 3-year supply of it at all research installations. And then we have the zombies "more and more every day". For there to be years' worth, there'd have to be a million-ghoul ocean pushing on that chainlink. That fence would have come down long before then. ...and so forth. Day didn't take place very far into the outbreak.

[Philly_SWAT]

So you think Day took place after Land? Wow, I'd never considered that; I always assumed Land was chronologically the last in the timeline. Interesting... Yes, I have been of that opinion for a long time. There are many threads here about that topic. I realize that most do not agree with me. More about this at the end. I still think Land takes place in the far future. In addition to the dilapidation and desolation of the outside world, and the whole seen-it-all attitude of the survivors, I remember in the original script, during the prison scene, when asked about his life "before", Riley says something to the effect of "I had a normal life, went to college, studied engineering... then one day everything changed...". This tells us that Riley was in his early twenties when the outbreak began, and since he's at least in his early thirties by the time of Land, it places it about ten years after the outbreak. Actors generally "play young" as a matter of course, meaning the characters they play are much younger than their actual age. They didn't have 3 years of fuel in the tanks in Day. So it couldn't take place after Land. And I find it ridiculous that Rhodes would still be impeccably clean, with top-of-the-line hairstyling after 3 years in a cave. Top-of-the-line hairstyling? LOL! Matter of opinion I suppose In any event, both the fuel and the hairstyles are easily explained by the "things you have to suspend your disbelief about" common in most movies. How many times have you seen a guy fire dozens of rounds without reloading? How many times have you seen a girl wake up in bed, and she looks perfect...perfect makeup, perfect hair, no crust in her eyes? I will have to disagree with the assumption land takes place after Day and I would be glad to cite exact quotes to help prove out my point if you like. The main quote people usually use to rebut my idea is the guy in the garage telling Riley that it has been "three years since any car drove out of here." Without starting a rehash of a very long thread, suffice it to say that it is not a far stretch to assume that no car had driven out of that piece of shit "garage" for some time before the outbreak. Add that time to the amount of time since the outbreak = three years. Even if it was 3 years, that gives no indication one way or the other as to when the events in Day take place. For the sake of argument, if Land is set 3 years into the outbreak, then Day is set after that. Seeing as GAR did not take a lot of care with these types of elements, I can only look at the movies themselves for evidence of how far into the outbreak they are set. The tone of Day is dark and bleak. No living being can be found for 100 miles in each direction. In Land, there are people all over the place, eating hot dogs in the street, and going to live "zombie fights" in clubs. As I stated earlier, it does not make much sense that downtown Pitt "fell" and was "re-taken". Certainly there would be better areas to set up as a community than a zombie infested downtown area. It is much more logical that it was held. That points to it being not that long after the outbreak. As do the facts that they are still using a money-based system to make their "economy" work. Cholo's obsession with obtaining money to LEAVE the area shows his brain is still thinking money is important, which it wouldnt be in a post zombie apocalypse. Even if there were an outpost in Cleavland (which doesnt seem likely), who is to say they are still using currency for anything? If this was far into the outbreak, it would appear common sense to stock up on something of tangible value, such as guns and ammo, to use as a means of exchange, rather than money. In Day, no one seems particularly surprised, upset, etc. that Major Cooper has died. It appears they are all immune to past emotions. Discipline has broken down to where soldiers are growing marijuana right out in the open. How likely is that if you still had an expectation of things returning to normal? Or of a rescue team coming any minute? How long would it have taken to round up all those zeds without 'killing' them? And fitting them with collars? When they first go to the corral, Sarah says "I've done it before". If this was a short time into the outbreak, you think the scientist chick would have been involved with wrangling zombies out of the pen, or sitting comfortably in her lab? Taking zombies from the pen is such old hat that Rickles is sloppy about writing it down. When Nicotero says "We used to talk to Washington all the time", think about that statement. If they had only been there 3 months, would it make sense to say it that way? That implies that they have been there a LONG time. Rhodes was so power hungry, bordering on insane, is this the type of soldier they would sent on such an important mission, which was "find a solution to save mankind?" Certainly someone can be competent and an asshole at the same time, but does it seem likely that he exhibited this type of behavior just a few months ago pre-outbreak and was sent on a mission to fascilitate a civilian scientific team? He was a Captain..would someone so out of control rise to that rank acting as he did? If not, is it believable that a trained soldier and officer would lose control so quickly? Or would it take a long time to descend into this kind of madness?

[sandrock74]

Just my own opinion here, just based on my own ideas as a viewer, nothing else. I always pictured Day as happening about a year/year and a half into the events of the timeline. That seems like enough time for them to feel isolated and cut off from the rest of the world (if it still exists), while still in the realm of possibility for still having fuel, booze, ammo and hair gel at their disposal. Remember how Tom Hanks looked in the movie Castaway? He was on the island for 4 or 5 years and he looked like a stereotypical hermit and/or a member of ZZ Top. That's how I would picture everyone in Day looking if it were 5 years into everything. Appearance wise, everyone would have let themselves go a long time ago. I can see Land happening a good 3 to 5 years into events of the timeline. I also agree with Philly in that The Green was HELD, not TAKEN. Everyone there was following the remnants of the old social system, but the people on the streets still looked shellshocked and weary. After a decade or so, I think that would have passed as everyone would be forced to adjust accordingly. Again, these are just my opinions from my observations from the films. Feel free to agree or disagree.

[EvilNed]

Have to agree with the majority. The discipline in Day may have broken down somewhat. But nowhere near the level of breakdown they would have suffered after three years! That's just nuts. After three years, they'd have at least gotten to the surface, tried retaking some place and realized that "We can't stay down here forever". I don't believe there's an army group (that small, mind you) in the world that WOULDN'T have tried to move on after two years or so of that stuff. And Land clearly takes place three years after the outbreak, infact it's stated twice in the film.

[krakenslayer]

Still haven't explained how you think they didn't burn through their fuel in 3 years. It's likely that they only use the helicopter periodically to keep track of what's happening in the outside world. It seemed in Day like there had been previous excursions that were equally unsuccessful in finding survivors, and they seem quite resigned to that, which to me suggests they've been there a long time. The power would have been off for months/years by the time the movie started, if they'd been there that long. Also, the limited alcohol these people brought with them wouldn't last 3 years. They're supposed to be inside a nuclear bunker - originally designed to house military and VIP personnel in the event of a nuclear exchange. There would be vast quantities of food and supplies stored down there in anticipation of large numbers of nuclear refugees. And then we have the zombies "more and more every day". For there to be years' worth, there'd have to be a million-ghoul ocean pushing on that chainlink. That fence would have come down long before then. ...and so forth. Day didn't take place very far into the outbreak. Here's what I think happened - Logan, Fisher, Sarah and the rest of the science team were were put together as part of the US military's attempt to come up with a scientific answer to the zombie problem. Judging by their references to time spent in Washington ("I saw one of those things trying to drive down Independence Avenue") they probably worked - protected by the military - at a science lab or university campus in D.C. at the beginning of the outbreak, they may have been there for several months, perhaps for as long as a year. After the last defended parts of D.C. fell to the hordes, the remains of the US government, worried that their best scientific team (and last remaining hope) would fall prey to the zombies, had them evacuated to the old nuclear bunker in Florida with a skeleton crew of soldiers to defend them and pressure them into coming up with results. So, in short, I don't think they were even in the bunker until well into the outbreak.

[sandrock74]

Here's what I think happened - Logan, Fisher, Sarah and the rest of the science team were were put together as part of the US military's attempt to come up with a scientific answer to the zombie problem. Judging by their references to time spent in Washington ("I saw one of those things trying to drive down Independence Avenue") they probably worked - protected by the military - at a science lab or university campus in D.C. at the beginning of the outbreak, they may have been there for several months, perhaps for as long as a year. After the last defended parts of D.C. fell to the hordes, the remains of the US government, worried that their best scientific team (and last remaining hope) would fall prey to the zombies, had them evacuated to the old nuclear bunker in Florida with a skeleton crew of soldiers to defend them and pressure them into coming up with results. Sorry kraken, but I can't agree with that. Who would take their "last, best hope", and dump them in a bunker in another state, effectively well behind enemy lines and with limited communications ability? Strategically, thats a horrible move. Taking your "best scientific team (and last remaining hope)" WITH you is the safest move. I don't think Logan, Sarah and the rest were considered anywhere near top tier in the governments eyes. I think they were one of several teams that were dropped in areas that were already stocked with supplies and deemed reasonably safe. Thats all. If they were the best, they would have been holed up in NORAD or something, not out in the sticks.