TWD 7x01 "The Day Will Come When You Won't" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[Harleydude666]

I'm not given to simple QQ-ing of the moment, I mean what I said. Neegan reminds me of Dick Dastardly. All that was missing was Muttley snicker-wheezing. Kinda bummed the season finale of The Strain is next week. Least it hasn't done so well their writers have fallen into Can Do No Wrong Mode. The Zombie Apocalypse would be a horribly shitty place to live. I have a hard time anyone who'd seen light at the end of the tunnel, only to be suddenly thrust into abject slavery would be so in love with breathing they'd put up with it. I mean for God's sake, the scene from the next episode has Neegan himself knocking on Alexandria's gate with his lame-ass bat. Shoot the fucker and let the Saviors self-destruct fighting over whose in charge (which, in reality is EXACTLY what would happen if Neegan went poof. The Saviors aren't a company of elite black ops guys.) It felt like the showrunners were sorry they were on basic cable, because they so clearly wanted to have Neegan pumping his bare cock in between quips and mindless savagery. My one bit of cockles-warming satisfaction is that the critics are eviscerating the show for killing Glenn off after the fake Glenn death of the previous season, and doing it with zero dignity. I'd like to see the show drop a hair short of cancellation. https://t.co/JFSL4Oq2rV to throw a scare into the showrunner and writers. The whole thing would've had me giggling it was so over the top, if it wasn't so damned sad. I have the same problem the show is demonstrating in some flawed RPGs I've played. The ones where every bit of new content you explore has the difficulty of the monsters perfectly rising to meet your level increase, so you never have the sense of making any progress. Frankly the Governor blasting the hell out of the Prison played the overwhelming ruin brought on by invading psychos card. Alexandria is a better setup, so of course lets bring in an antagonist of unbelievably implausible might, and then...Just to make sure they go right over the top, let's have the leader of said overwhelming force be a hardon-stroking sadist with the mentality of a six year old that likes to pull the wings off flies...because of COURSE *THIS* is JUST the kind of guy to gain the unwavering loyalty of hundreds of devoted psychopaths. I've seen much worse myself. That's the problem. I didn't want to see TWD go down the Direct-to-DVD sewer. Since I've been apprised Neegan's a long-running villain, I am over it. There are actual forms of entertainment to be indulged in unless/until TWD gets its head out of its ass. Like I said, The Strain is rocking it. Game of Thrones is finally getting really serious. I've got no beef if others find Neegan's antics entertaining. It's your Sunday night hour, after all. Personally, I got enough of Neegan in high school. I locked mine in a dumpster in late April Florida sunlight with a wasp's nest...and to top off my crime, managed to net HIM a felony conviction and myself a pat on the back from the police and I have the court documents to prove it. I know real viciousness. I went to a high school that had paramedics called to rush the victims of the football team's varsity members about two or three times a month, with said victims facing suspensions when they got back for supposedly starting fights with said psycho jocks. Trust me, real sadism doesn't come with giggling quips. It comes with flat dead eyes, from people externalizing their own pain and thereby trying to diminish it by foisting it off on others. I say Neegan is so over the top there's no horror in what he does. Just the splatter of urine and feces on what at its high point was dystopian art. Your mileage may, as always, vary. Well I'll tell ya what, critics SUCK, so I feel bad for ya if you're going to follow what the critics, like, don't like, agree, or not agree with. Glen's death was awesome. Finally a death where the characters don't get to gather around and hold a vigil for their comrade, just a quick shocking brutal death where no one gets to think about except for the horror of it. I'm tired of main characters getting a noble death, this worked for me! Good luck dude

[DayoftheZ]

Bit of an obvious one but Glenn is the first Atlanta campsite victim since Andrea in Season three, ironically killed indirectly by the last big TWD villain The governor. It takes a special kind of killer to take out Atlanta camp lot there days!! All that is left from the Atlanta camp is Rick, Carl, Carol and Daryl, that is unless Morales and his family turn up. I guess we should include Morgan in the Atlanta crew but at this moment in time only Rick and Carl are in Alexandria. So in addition to this the only pre-Alexandria survivors in Team Rick are:- Rick, Carl, Carol, Daryl, Morgan, Maggie, Judith, Michonne, Sasha, Tara, Eugene, Rosita and Father Gabriel.

[Neil]

Bugger - I forgot to put the thread up! Thanks for putting it up, Neil - and even more so for keeping up the style guide. I'm like your RIght Hand Man... Now where have I heard that recently? Did anyone also notice towards the end the Saviour taking a photograph of Glenn's splattered head? Remember when Glenn was looking at similar photos when they raided that Saviour outpost? Very nice touch that! I'm sure there will be a Negan back story episode... Just seems too much of an opportunity to miss!

[facestabber]

Did Maggie's level of badass not just rise exponentially? WAR Maggie Greene

[JDP]

Did anyone also notice towards the end the Saviour taking a photograph of Glenn's splattered head? Remember when Glenn was looking at similar photos when they raided that Saviour outpost? The Omen: http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/s...l=1#post314451 Now Glenn hangs in the Savior's version of The Louvre as one the "masterpieces".

[Neil]

The Omen: http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/s...l=1#post314451 Now Glenn hangs in the Savior's version of The Louvre as one the "masterpieces". Yep, a nice story thread!

[facestabber]

There is much to discuss and I look forward to all of it. I would like to see people's thoughts on the Rick/Negan comparisons. Prior to this episode I have seen many compare the two saying they are the same(social media wide)I think after experiencing Negan in his full glory, that the comparisons are surface deep. Thoughts?

[MinionZombie]

Okay - some thoughts... The moment when Rick dived off the RV and grabbed onto the hanged walker was awesome. A very cool scene, very tense and dangerous as well. Also, the bit where Rick's hand got stuck into that one walker's bile-filled inflammation underneath their jaw was super gross. Glenn's last, stumbled words were heartbreaking. I was prepared for it coming, having predicted it'd be a twofer of Abraham and Glenn, but even still - it was a tough scene to watch. That pizza boy has been through a hell of a journey, and for it all to end in such a hideous manner is a kick in the gut. I'm gonna love to hate Negan. Where's a dumpster to hide under when you need one?! I've already said how good Lincoln was in this episode, but let's not forget about Jeffrey Dean Morgan - holy crap - the dude is absolutely nailing Negan. I saw in an interview with him that he said one of the keys to the vibe of the character was a shot in the comic of Negan kind of arched backwards and laughing. He's got the physical mannerisms and swagger, that sense of showmanship, spot on. He's so compelling to watch - he's going to be a lot of fun to watch as an actor, and a lot of fun to hate as a character. TWD 7x01 Memes:   ... I'm like your Right Hand Man... Now where have I heard that recently? I'm sure there will be a Negan back story episode... Just seems too much of an opportunity to miss! So does that make you Simon or Abraham? Speaking of Simon - played by Steven Ogg (most widely known as Trevor from GTA V), I'm really looking forward to seeing more from him. I didn't know if he'd be a small part or a big part, so hearing Negan call him his right hand man made me happy - we should be seeing a good amount of him (hopefully!). I don't know which fate would be worse, getting Lucille'd, or living on after someone you love has been Lucille'd. Did Maggie's level of badass not just rise exponentially? WAR Maggie Greene Maggie, last of the Greenes, is strong like nobody's business. Seeing her be the first one to stand up ... oof, the struggle of it all. Now here's a question - did anyone else take it that Maggie was wanting to commit suicide when she said for them all to leave her be, that she could make it to the Hilltop on her own? Interesting that Sasha was the one who said she'd go with Maggie - considering Sasha's previous story in Season 5 after the deaths of Bob and Tyreese, I think Sasha recognised that was what was really going on. The Omen: http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/s...l=1#post314451 Now Glenn hangs in the Savior's version of The Louvre as one the "masterpieces". *shudders* I wonder if someone from Team Rick will see that polaroid at some point in the future? There is much to discuss and I look forward to all of it. I would like to see people's thoughts on the Rick/Negan comparisons. Prior to this episode I have seen many compare the two saying they are the same(social media wide)I think after experiencing Negan in his full glory, that the comparisons are surface deep. Thoughts? Rick/Negan? On the surface the comparison is curious, but we've only just encountered Negan in this context. There will no doubt be some shades in the future as events unfold - in Seasons 2 and 3 we didn't entertain too many comparisons between Rick & Shane or Rick & The Governor - but we've had numerous times now in which Rick has done exactly the sort of thing Shane was calling for in Season 2, or even had visual and aural references to The Governor when Rick goes full 'tatorship mode.

[UndeadHippo]

i must admit i was expecting Abe, but Glenn caught me right in the gut. good call on the showrunners part to include everyone in the opening credits too, and for having all those split-second Lucille-meets-the-cast moments, really helped to contain any leaks (having seen a couple of youtube suggestions claiming that it was Maggie who got the bat). nice bit of misdirection. really enjoyed the episode overall, and it's got me wanting to watch next week. The elephant in the room for me is Negan's lack of colourful language. while in the comics it goes a long way to defining the type of guy he is, i think Jeffery Dean Morgan manages perfectly well without it. I do wonder if the less "Advertiser friendly" language was also recorded and if it will be a DVD extra kind of thing, and if it will really make that much of a difference. I'm well past the age of being shocked at the odd F-bomb, but i think in a post-apocalyptic zombie-infested hellhole, the vast majority of people aren't going to be so particular about minding thier p's and q's, so Abe telling Negan to "suck my balls" just made me think of cartman from south park. threatening to cut off a teenage boy's hand is just cruel. do you have any idea what that would do to his sex life??? lucky for Carl that negan is not *quite* that sadistic.

[MinionZombie]

Another thing I dug was seeing a bit of the eenie meenie scene from Rick's POV, you really felt powerless in that moment and it gave you a chillingly immersive glimpse at being in that situation. The whole thing was beautifully shot, too, with the car lights and mist and the silhouettes ... and that smoke-clogged RV scene was very atmospheric. Nicotero did a fantastic job! The elephant in the room for me is Negan's lack of colourful language. while in the comics it goes a long way to defining the type of guy he is, i think Jeffery Dean Morgan manages perfectly well without it. I do wonder if the less "Advertiser friendly" language was also recorded and if it will be a DVD extra kind of thing, and if it will really make that much of a difference. I'm well past the age of being shocked at the odd F-bomb, but i think in a post-apocalyptic zombie-infested hellhole, the vast majority of people aren't going to be so particular about minding thier p's and q's, so Abe telling Negan to "suck my balls" just made me think of cartman from south park. threatening to cut off a teenage boy's hand is just cruel. do you have any idea what that would do to his sex life??? lucky for Carl that negan is not *quite* that sadistic. I listened to a Nerdist podcast with Gale Anne Hurd (one of the producers of TWD) and she said they are filming 'sweary alternatives' of Negan's monologues specifically for the DVD and Blu-Ray releases. The season 6 finale has alternate dialogue, but as you say, JDM has embodied the character without the swearing - so I'm fine either way - but yes, in the comics Negan's foul language is part of his shtick. America really needs to grow up about the F-word on cable television at the very least. I mean, really, come on. Like Chris Hardwick said on Talking Dead (I enjoyed the 'Hollywood Forever Cemetery' special, nice to have a change of pace for the big return - make an event out of it, you know?) you've just seen people have their heads smashed in, so if you're offended by the F-word then GTFO. To be fair, Negan did ask Carl if he was a south paw - which he wasn't - so his love life wouldn't be too affected. That said, no chance of 'the stranger' ... ... lucky for him though it was a psych out ... ... although I was convinced they were going to do it. The sheer sadism of that moment was astonishing - the sheer drama of it all - no wonder the cast have been saying these episodes have been rough on them emotionally.

[babomb]

Killing Negan at this point would be a big mistake. Sure, you could try to go "kamikaze" and take him out even if it means you will die too. Rick could have done this on several occasions while he was inside the RV with Negan, but he realized that this would only mean death for the rest of the captured group. I don't see why though. This is the way Negan deals with people. In the clip from upcoming episodes you see people kneeling when he walks by. His death would be celebrated. Even by his Generals.

[JDP]

I don't see why though. This is the way Negan deals with people. In the clip from upcoming episodes you see people kneeling when he walks by. His death would be celebrated. Even by his Generals. Apparently not, seeing as how loyal to him most of his men seem to be. Some are even willingly ready to take a bullet for him (like that Savior that Rick incorrectly thought might be Negan, who gladly assumed his identity and took a shot in the head for it.) If there was a high level of discontent among his men, we would expect many of them deserting the Saviors and joining Negan's enemies. So far we have only seen 3 people trying to leave the Saviors, one of them is dead (killed by zombies), one we don't know what happened to her, and the other one is already back in their ranks. In any event, the big mistake in killing Negan at this point would be from the Alexandrians' point of view. If that happens, Daryl is a dead man too.

[Trin]

I thought it was a good episode. Cons: - There was way too much rehash and build-up. Several times I screamed in pure Monty Python style, "Get on with it!" If there had been one more flashback I was gonna Lucille myself with the TV remote. - It was implausible. Given what Team Rick has done to the Saviors to this point I expect they know capture is a death sentence (at best). I don't see them handing over their guns without it turning into a bloodbath. I don't see them kneeling there putting up with the atrocities. They should be acting like caged animals. And had I been Rick in that RV I'd have killed Negan or died trying. It was their best and only hope of regaining the advantage in an otherwise no win situation. It all just lacked a bit of believability for me. - Maggie should be dead. The stress of what she witnessed would've pushed her body over the edge. Miscarriage and mother's death, no saving throw. - I thought the entire RV scene and the "get my ax" thing was goofy. I think they wanted to portray that Negan had total control of the situation but it didn't really work for me. There was just a little too much opportunity for things to go awry for Negan, or for Rick to do something unexpected. Pros: - All criticisms aside, the episode really only needed to do one thing to succeed - it needed to convince me how Negan could release the group (Rick and surviving members) without fear of reprisal. I think it did that. Rick was truly defeated (something that for me was VERY hard to sell). And the Saviors have a hostage as backup. Okay, I can buy it! They nailed this with good writing and good acting! - Killing Abraham was the best move possible, strategy-wise, for Negan. He was the big military looking guy with the defiant stare. It went a long ways to neuter the group. But it wasn't demoralizing. Abraham was a military guy with few emotional ties. By itself it wasn't enough. - Killing a second member was good for the show, both on screen and off. On screen it made sense for the story given the situation and it was good character development for Negan. Glenn was a civilian, husband and father to be. Thus it had huge emotional impact and thus emotional devastation for the group. Off screen it reinforced that the show would not pussyfoot around with fan favorites. But, again, even on top of Abraham's death it wasn't enough! - The Rick/Carl ax/hand thing was well done. Combined with the two deaths it was the crucial breaking point. I think the idea of a parent inflicting suffering on a child had more devastation than seeing someone die. - The Glenn death was good horror. It was quick, unexpected (to the extent it wasn't 1000% spoiled), and needless. It was well executed. The shots of his head caved in with him still trying to talk are haunting. And given how it will affect Daryl - wow, well done! - I like Negan. I didn't expect to. He's a stupid caricature of a character. But his lines are awesome, in a cheesy B-movie kinda way. And the acting is superb. He's like the Ash of TWD. "Hail to the King, baby." As to Glenn appearing to be killed, I am disturbed they'd resort to this stunt again. I only hope they don't wait too long before they bring him back. He's one of my favorites. As one of the few retarded individuals that thought he actually died at the dumpster, not realizing it was camera trickery and TWD douchey misdirection, I am not amused. Do they think I will fall for this again? Did they think we wouldn't notice Glenn and Abraham at the picnic table? Insulting.

[shootemindehead]

Well, that was one hell of an opener. While I thought it was going to be either Abe or Mullet boy who'd get the bat at the end of the last series, I never figured on two home runs. I kind of reckoned that once Abe was done, that the producers would pussy out and leave it at that, so Glenn's baseball act was a genuine surprise to me. My wife, who'd seen the episode last night laughed at my reaction. As a comic reader, it was nice to see the cross over between the two media. And yeh, Andrew Lincoln (who's prone to a bit of overacting on the show, if I'm honest) was fantastic in this episode. He really looked like a broken man. That kind of thing is not easy to achieve. It takes some reaching to get to that level of utter despair convincingly. On another note: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment...n-council.html /\ I wish people like this would just fuck off.

[Wyldwraith]

Why not just *leave*? Yes, losing Daryl will suck...but consigning everyone else to slavery sucks worse. If they don't want to fight, blow town. Neegan isn't going to piss away manpower and resources trying to track down seven or eight people with a multiple day head start. You lose one person, get everyone else still alive you give a shit about out of trouble. Problem solved. Yes, being back on the road sucks...but being the bitch of a psychopath sucks more. Who in their right mind would sit around for that? There's a reason they call it Fight or Flight. Not Fight, Flight, Capitulate. Rational human beings don't risk their entire family group for the sake of one. If it was a post-apocalyptic environment and someone grabbed my mother...if I failed to evac the family and dithered around keeping them in a high-danger environment trying to get her back I'd best just pack it in. Even if I succeeded she'd literally beat me to death for risking my siblings, their offspring and my father/grandmother. It'd be the same if it was me...grabbed, I'd slit my wrists or bite through my tongue because no one would be coming. Family bonds are tight, but they WILL snap when your choice is endangering EVERYONE or sacrificing the one. So they've decided they can't fight...Fair enough, there are a lot of Saviors. Then bug out. Alexandria is not the only game remaining in America. Yes, Team Rick has gotten a wee bit attached to the place and its community...But enough to endure slavery just for Daryl and what remains of the Alexandrians? For that matter, why doesn't ANY community oppressed by such as the Saviors pick up and bail? It all comes back to Fight or Flight. National oppression like say, North Korea exists because the oppressors have the manpower, resources and sheer geographical control to keep people shackled. Four or five hundred people with a few dozen vehicles does not a thorough net of oppression make. The Saviors are relying on the Mongol Horde strategy. A thorough study of history demonstrates plenty of groups, after being bloodied by Genghis or Attila bugged out to live another day. If a population can flee nomadic raiders whose entire infrastructure is highly mobile, it's easily possible to flee a few hundred guys who have to worry about limited fuel, dividing manpower to continue collections from those who haven't fled, and keeping enough manpower available to strategically float in case of insurrection. Yes, deciding where to go would be a challenge..but not an insurmountable one. Rick and Co. made it on the road for months, months and MORE months post-Prison. They could do so again. Of course that won't happen because it isn't the direction the writers want to go...But, rationally speaking...What parent who very nearly had to cut off their kid's arm would keep that kid available to the madman who nearly precipitated it? If they won't just grab Neegan and show the Saviors how real torture is done (I imagine it would make an excellent bit of demoralization to haul out a blinded torso with four cauterized stumps a tongue and ears begging for death. You punctuate the show with a bit of castration and cauterization and then blow his goddamned brains out. Bullies break when you out-savage them, every time. All it takes is balling up your humanity tight and putting it away for later.) But, this isn't HBO...so only the bad guys get to go that far. Again, leaving flight.