TWD 7x04 "Service" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[JDP]

And what's to say the Saviours wouldn't find the hidden stashes? You're running a major risk doing that. Glenn died from a mere punch as an infraction ... imagine the hell that would rain down upon you if a cache (or several caches) of hidden weapons were found? After such a heavy loss and having witnessed the potential for sheer sadism from Negan (the hatchet scene), the wise head is gonna take the lumps now to avoid the very real possibility of far, far, far worse later on. It didn't help that there was a clearly kept logbook of every weapon they had, either. Their paperwork screwed them over! Not more risk than they took by making an empty grave and claiming that one of their group had died. All Negan had to do is say "dig up that grave, I want to see her body" for them to be knee-deep in it! It is actually more difficult for them to find a stash of weapons and supplies carefully buried anywhere in those large woods (which the Alexandrians know like the palm of their hand by now, unlike the Saviors) that surround Alexandria than the risk of them finding out there is really no one in that grave. The paperwork could easily have been tampered with to make it look like they had less things than they actually did. How would Negan know? He couldn't have. This is the very first time that he or anyone in his group were in Alexandria. They had no prior knowledge of how much stuff they had. The Saviors had no idea that they even had an RPG in their arsenal. Only in this episode do they find out that it was in fact the Alexandrians who blew up one of their biker squadrons

[Moon Knight]

It wasn't an oversight from Rick not to hide weapons, he admitted he thought about it but didn't want to take that risk. I believe Rick is really trying to give this bending of a knee to Negan a chance but sooner or later he's gonna snap out of it. You could see signs of this as he clenched tightly onto Lucille every time Negan turned his back on him; which was done on purpose by Negan of course to test Rick. - - - Updated - - - Also, did Negan really drink the Orange Crush soda that Denise originally intended to give to Tara? Haha what a dick.

[facestabber]

It wasn't an oversight from Rick not to hide weapons, he admitted he thought about it but didn't want to take that risk. I believe Rick is really trying to give this bending of a knee to Negan a chance but sooner or later he's gonna snap out of it. You could see signs of this as he clenched tightly onto Lucille every time Negan turned his back on him; which was done on purpose by Negan of course to test Rick. - - - Updated - - - Also, did Negan really drink the Orange Crush soda that Denise originally intended to give to Tara? Haha what a dick. Yes he took a swig and discarded the remaining contents. Add taking all the meds and burning the matresses and you have epic level douchbag. Wonder if Rick will attempt to dive for that truck in the pond?

[Wyldwraith]

I never said I wouldn't return here once I cooled off. My "Peace" was meant I was done watching the show for now and taking a needed cooling-off break during the next few episodes from discussion here. Minion, I love ya...but you'll apologize for any call the show makes IMHO. Allowing the Saviors to just stand there so bunched up the RPG blast would've killed at least as many as the previous blast did and badly injure still more, to be mopped up with gunfire? I'm sorry, that was a fiat decision on the part of the writers. As for the careful inventorying of the guns...Why would Rick have even had that done, as often as he and Carol were moving guns around illicitly? Again, a bit of convenient writing to explain away Neegan's ability to effortlessly disarm Alexandria. (Something the writers had to address given the military-grade arsenal and significant manpower Alexandria had.) This new Quisling Rick, actively mugging for Neegan's regime...I'm sorry. This moment would've made me puke if I'd actually watched it live. Reading the dialog and stage directions was bad enough. I NEVER thought Rick Grimes could become a character I so thoroughly detested as to want one of his own people to shoot him, but sadly that time is upon us. The writing for the whole of Service can't even be called an episode in a narrative. It was nothing more than a Writer's Mechanism to establish the absolute dominance of the Savior's Current Position. Now, they can have Neegan go ahead and do things that'll make the Team Rick On Their Knees-scene seem tame...all so they can try to convince the viewer to empathize with and agonize for Rick as he experiences angsty helplessness for capitulating now, only to see the true atrocities the Savior's will go on to commit now that they're utterly helpless. All so they can lead the viewer by the nose to cheer as Underdog Team Rick pulls out a win through improbably contrived means of rearming and regrowing of their spines. As others have said, concealing Maggie was just as risky as concealing the guns would've been. Rick's whole "What if they'd caught us with those guns" was SUCH A CROCK. Rick could've turned around and said to Neegan "Of COURSE the first thing we did after you took our guns was devote a huge amount of effort to digging up more. One, you didn't say we COULDN'T. Two, it's the smart thing for us to do. What if a Walker horde showed up at the gates while you and your Saviors were off collecting tribute elsewhere? I'm sorry...the arguments about Neegan's people spying on Alexandria preventing the Alexandrians from hiding the guns out in the woods are disingenuous AT BEST. Alexandria has suffered a LOT of damage recently. Team Rick could've deliberately torn up and re-renovated numerous walls and floors to act as red herrings, then concealed a significant portion of their guns/ammo/the RPG in an extremely well thought-out hiding place within the walls of Alexandria. Without that idiotic Inventory Sheet and Rick turned 110% Neegan Quisling there's no fucking WAY the Saviors would've found the guns. How to allay the risk of having the guns discovered on them by Saviors who they encounter while beyond the walls of Alexandria? Limit the number of guns they carry to something very plausible as amounts they could've scavenged with effort from the surrounding area. The writing for this entire episode was BULLSHIT, and anyone whose not a Committed Apologist for TWD Writers should be willing to admit the following points: 1) To reiterate: It's the same risk, hiding Maggie and hiding half the guns and the RPG. For anyone who says taking that risk twice doubles the chance of discovery, that isn't how probability works. Each "coin-toss" has "No Memory." When I toss a coin and it comes up Heads, and then toss the coin again there's the same 50% chance of the coin coming up Heads or Tails. If Alexandria was willing to risk the terrible retribution they'd be subjected to in order to preserve Maggie and her unborn child, it makes sense they would've been willing to risk the SAME retribution they're ALREADY subject to in order to preserve a stockpile of arms that could've easily lead to their freedom if/when circumstances changed. Rick argued the Saviors are too numerous...but what if the Saviors ran afoul of another group just as skilled and determined as Team Rick was when they went on the warpath? For anyone who says that's implausible, I remind you just how implausible the existence of a warband the size of the Saviors is. How implausible multiple communities the size of Alexandria and 'Top within easy traveling distance of each other are (Adding Ezekiel's Kingdom to that list as well.) The Saviors could've a) Again taken mass-casualties from a team like Rick's, b) Lost a large # of people to an outbreak of disease like the Red-Eyed Plague the Prison suffered through (Reference my previous post about just how common outbreaks of things like Cholera, Dysentery, Yellow Fever or West Nile (this is still taking place inside geography heavily afflicted by West Nile and Yellow Fever-carrying mosquitoes), or c) Lost significant manpower to putting down an internal schism. ANY of these eventualities could've EASILY reduced the Saviors to a force a still-heavily-armed Alexandria could've fought successfully. 2) Beating the same old "Daryl is Rick's Brother, there's no way Team Rick would sacrifice Daryl to gain their freedom" drum is becoming tiresome. Daryl was OBVIOUSLY in HORRIBLE, badly dispirited shape that could easily be determined with a single glance at Alexandria's gate. The argument that a man with TWO children to safeguard would pass up such an utterly GOLDEN opportunity to exterminate nearly ALL the Saviors at one fell swoop after such a towering display of overconfidence literally boggles my mind. To the people who've said "Would you cut someone you loved loose for the sake of impatience?" I retort: "No, I'd cut them loose for the following reasons: 1) My loved one has been imprisoned likely forever by sadistic monsters. I'm not so much sacrificing as freeing them from their torment-filled captivity. 2) Any captive who loved those who're being so sadistically oppressed by a sociopath would be HAPPY to lay down their life if doing so meant those they loved would no longer be living with such a Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads. Don't believe me? Ask yourself this about Daryl Dixon: Hasn't he demonstrated a willingness to face the likelihood of death on NUMEROUS occasions for those he cared for? Isn't his entire resistance to Neegan's offer based on his loyalty to those he loves? What have you EVER seen that would make you believe Daryl wouldn't have been urging Rick to take such a golden opportunity to massacre the Saviors despite it meaning his almost-certain death? 3) As Spock famously said after sacrificing his life to save his ship and crew: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." Based on everything Neegan has done (Including proving his "I'm a man of my word" bullshit is just that by showing up early to demand his tribute) Rick and Co. have EVERY REASON to believe that despite heartfelt capitulation to Neegan's demands, he will likely kill them the INSTANT it becomes clear they can't provide enough tribute to satisfy him. So really the decision to take Neegan out at the cost of Daryl's life amounts to the following: Am I willing to see ONE I love die, so that the others I love, care for and am responsible for can be freed of the inevitable deaths hanging over all their heads? Wouldn't the ONE I love be urging me to take such a golden opportunity to remove such a terrible threat to EVERYONE at the cost of their life, precisely BECAUSE he loves us? 3) I'll say it ONE MORE TIME. There is ONLY SO MUCH TO BE SCAVENGED WITHIN A VIABLE-TO-TRAVERSE RADIUS OF ALEXANDRIA!!! Everything Neegan has done, everything Neegan has said makes it GLARINGLY OBVIOUS he will KILL the Alexandrians the very INSTANT he believes they can no longer provide him with enough tribute to justify allowing dozens of people who'd love to see him dead, who will only grow more desperate as times goes by to live. A MORON would be able to comprehend there is an INESCAPABLE COUNTDOWN to the massacre of every man, woman and child in Alexandria going on so long as Neegan lives. That very same MORON would comprehend allowing their manpower to be totally disarmed by the madman who intends to MURDER THEM ALL the moment they're no longer useful enough to justify accepting the risk of allowing them to continue drawing breath! Face it Apologists: Your argument is as follows: "Rick, despite the realization Neegan is GOING to MURDER his son, his daughter, and all his remaining friends, PLUS all the people who look to him for protection the INSTANT the traversable area around Alexandria has been depleted of goods, should continue leading everyone he cares for, and everyone he's responsible for on a DEATH MARCH ALL FOR THE SAKE OF SOMEONE WHOSE LIFE HE A) CANNOT SAVE, and B) WHOSE LIFE IS AN OBVIOUS TORMENT!!! Further, when given a MIRACLE FROM ON HIGH...That his enemies have all bunched themselves into a mass a single RPG blast would kill or maim the majority of in a towering display of overconfidence. That, after all they've suffered, Rick and Co. should let said gift from On High pass...and instead hand over all their guns to the man who intends to butcher them. I can understand being reluctant to sacrifice a brother's life, unless it's at the cost of one's children's lives and all one's remaining friends-as-close-as-family. Rick should've KNOWN that anyone who so obviously GETS OFF on tormenting others couldn't be trusted to honor any agreement.

[JDP]

It wasn't an oversight from Rick not to hide weapons, he admitted he thought about it but didn't want to take that risk. But that makes it an even worse plot-hole. Rick & company know that this tactic of hiding weapons "just in case something bad happens and we lose the guns we are carrying" works very well since they have tried it before (the Terminus cannibals were not able to find their weapons cache buried somewhere in the woods around Terminus, and these guys actually KNEW FOR SURE that Rick had hid something, unlike the Saviors, who would never know for sure.) On top of that, we have the absurd contradiction that Rick & company are willing to risk digging a fake grave, thinking that the Saviors are not going to bother checking whether the person in question is really dead and buried there, and yet they don't want to take the exact same risk when it comes to hiding guns? If they were so sure that the Saviors were not going to demand that Maggie's grave be examined to make sure that she is really dead, then why not just fill up the said grave with weapons? THEY HAD NOTHING TO LOSE! If the Saviors dig up that grave and find out that Maggie is not really dead they are still going to punish the Alexandrians. So putting guns in the fake grave would not really matter much. They would get in trouble anyway whether it was empty or full of weapons. This is a HUGE plot-hole. Rick's strange double-standard of what to lie about does not make much sense. He is willing to put everybody at risk to make it look like Maggie is dead, but he is not willing to do the same to hide some guns (which ironically enough he can easily have put inside the very empty grave used to put up the farce about Maggie's death)?

[facestabber]

But that makes it an even worse plot-hole. Rick & company know that this tactic of hiding weapons "just in case something bad happens and we lose the guns we are carrying" works very well since they have tried it before (the Terminus cannibals were not able to find their weapons cache buried somewhere in the woods around Terminus, and these guys actually KNEW FOR SURE that Rick had hid something, unlike the Saviors, who would never know for sure.) On top of that, we have the absurd contradiction that Rick & company are willing to risk digging a fake grave, thinking that the Saviors are not going to bother checking whether the person in question is really dead and buried there, and yet they don't want to take the exact same risk when it comes to hiding guns? If they were so sure that the Saviors were not going to demand that Maggie's grave be examined to make sure that she is really dead, then why not just fill up the said grave with weapons? THEY HAD NOTHING TO LOSE! If the Saviors dig up that grave and find out that Maggie is not really dead they are still going to punish the Alexandrians. So putting guns in the fake grave would not really matter much. They would get in trouble anyway whether it was empty or full of weapons. This is a HUGE plot-hole. Rick's strange double-standard of what to lie about does not make much sense. He is willing to put everybody at risk to make it look like Maggie is dead, but he is not willing to do the same to hide some guns (which ironically enough he can easily have put inside the very empty grave used to put up the farce about Maggie's death)? I was just thinking to myself, I bet there are guns in that grave. Or rather I wouldn't be surprised. Father G has seemed to take a liking to that rifle. And it would be in line with Rick's true nature. Even hiding it from Michonne for the time being to get the A's to tow the new line while he evaluates the situation. Another concern is does Maggie even know she needs to hide? As soon as she is seen, ASZ has a major problem and now a depleted arsenal. Wylde, you made solid points, I will respond when I have more time.

[Moon Knight]

Father Gabriel made that grave on the spot, it wasn't planned.

[shootemindehead]

We're a mere two days after the catastrophic events in episode 1. There were probably plenty of discussions on what to do if Negan arrived and how to confront him, plus discussions on whether to hide weapons or not and cook the books. None of those tasks are as easy to do as they are to say, especially the cook the books part and one slight oddity would be disasterous. Plus, it would be safe to assume that Alexadria was being watched. However, Negan's group had no knowledge of Maggie's current status, so that confirms that perhaps they weren't. That confirmation has come to late though. Into the bargain, Negan and co. arrived early. He was supposed to come in a week, not two days. So, simply put, Rick and co. are afraid, they're unsure how to proceed and they've been caught offguard by Negan's super early show up. Also, there is a lot of logic to biding your time. Softly, softly, catchee monkey.

[Moon Knight]

We're a mere two days after the catastrophic events in episode 1. There were probably plenty of discussions on what to do if Negan arrived and how to confront him, plus discussions on whether to hide weapons or not and cook the books. None of those tasks are as easy to do as they are to say, especially the cook the books part and one slight oddity would be disasterous. Plus, it would be safe to assume that Alexadria was being watched. However, Negan's group had no knowledge of Maggie's current status, so that confirms that perhaps they weren't. That confirmation has come to late though. Into the bargain, Negan and co. arrived early. He was supposed to come in a week, not two days. So, simply put, Rick and co. are afraid, they're unsure how to proceed and they've been caught offguard by Negan's super early show up. Also, there is a lot of logic to biding your time. Softly, softly, catchee monkey. That's exactly how I see it.

[MinionZombie]

Softly, softly, catchee monkey. Exactly. Besides, before you do anything you need to have every single person on the same page. Right now they don't have that whatsoever. Everyone's so shellshocked after what's only just happened, and we saw exactly where rushing in like arrogant fools got them. You're playing for keeps here and you're going up against a well-organised army. Plus, it's interesting that Negan wasn't intending to take all of their guns until Carl pulled his little defiance act in the medical house (to be fair, The Saviours are showing their word means not much when they have so little regard for the definition of "half" ... I mean really, what brutes! ) - as a result of that he took all of them. I liked the Rick vs Spencer moment, and it paid off several episodes ago when Spencer was pinching stuff from the rations, the cheeky bugger. Watching Talking Dead it also confirmed to me that killing Negan right now, in a rash manner, wouldn't be a good idea. He is keeping his people in-check (we saw examples of that in this episode), and some of these people are real scum (e.g. see the guy who was perving on Enid and getting a power play out of her). Many of these people are in-thrall to Negan, and they're doing quite nicely out of this set up thank you very much - kill Negan and you've got chaos on your hand. It'd be unbridled rape and pillage and slaughter in moments.

[facestabber]

Father Gabriel made that grave on the spot, it wasn't planned. I gotta disagree. It was a deliberate act to deceive. Which requires thinking and action in the midst of anguish. Without diminishing the pain of loss of Abe and Glenn, its hard for me to understand the submissive and paralysing actions(minus grave deception). There are enough red shirts in ASZ that weren't close to A n G and would bring a voice not trapped by grief.

[JDP]

Father Gabriel made that grave on the spot, it wasn't planned. That was not done while the Saviors were unexpectedly banging at the door, that must have been done sometime before they showed up. It must have required some level of previous planning. Can you imagine if nobody else but Rick and Father Gabriel were in on it? The rest of the Alexandrians would have given away the ruse easily: "Maggie is dead? Say what?? When??? How???" Obviously the whole town had to be in on this or it would not work. So they are obviously not going to tell everyone about Maggie supposedly being dead right in front of the very people they are trying to deceive. - - - Updated - - - We're a mere two days after the catastrophic events in episode 1. There were probably plenty of discussions on what to do if Negan arrived and how to confront him, plus discussions on whether to hide weapons or not and cook the books. None of those tasks are as easy to do as they are to say, especially the cook the books part and one slight oddity would be disasterous. Plus, it would be safe to assume that Alexadria was being watched. However, Negan's group had no knowledge of Maggie's current status, so that confirms that perhaps they weren't. That confirmation has come to late though. Into the bargain, Negan and co. arrived early. He was supposed to come in a week, not two days. So, simply put, Rick and co. are afraid, they're unsure how to proceed and they've been caught offguard by Negan's super early show up. Also, there is a lot of logic to biding your time. Softly, softly, catchee monkey. If I remember correctly, what we see is the third day after the events in episode 1 of this season. They had plenty of time to start preparing for the imminent coming of the Saviors. However, it looks like they took no preventive measure whatsoever (not just weapons, BTW, they also did not hide any of their medical supplies, that's why Carl was pissed, they were taking most of them.) They know well what kind of scoundrels these people are. They should have expected the worst from them, so to start hiding some of your weapons and supplies made plenty of sense. Not only do the Saviors not know about Maggie not really being dead, they are not even aware that Michonne is around shooting a rifle. They obviously did not bother at all to stalk the place before showing up. They are exhibiting their typically overconfident attitude, just because having Daryl as a hostage makes them think the Alexandrians are not going to try any funny business. Changing the books would not be hard. You could strike out a good number weapons as supposedly "lost in action", for example. How can Negan possibly check this? He can't. No Savior has ever been to Alexandria before, so he had no prior knowledge whatsoever of how big the Alexandrian arsenal really is. This was a golden opportunity to make it look smaller than it actually is and fool them. But they blew it. Now they are left at the same level as the Hilltoppers: reduced to have to fight with knives and home-made spears, while the Saviors remain armed to the teeth with guns, and now they even have an RPG to top it off! (a weapon that in my opinion they should have deployed against the Saviors when they were trying to get to the Hilltop. They would have massacred a bunch of those cocky Saviors defiantly standing close together blocking the roads. They were definitely NOT expecting an attack with rocket propelled grenades.)

[facestabber]

Exactly. Besides, before you do anything you need to have every single person on the same page. Right now they don't have that whatsoever. Everyone's so shellshocked after what's only just happened, and we saw exactly where rushing in like arrogant fools got them. You're playing for keeps here and you're going up against a well-organised army. Plus, it's interesting that Negan wasn't intending to take all of their guns until Carl pulled his little defiance act in the medical house (to be fair, The Saviours are showing their word means not much when they have so little regard for the definition of "half" ... I mean really, what brutes! ) - as a result of that he took all of them. I liked the Rick vs Spencer moment, and it paid off several episodes ago when Spencer was pinching stuff from the rations, the cheeky bugger. Watching Talking Dead it also confirmed to me that killing Negan right now, in a rash manner, wouldn't be a good idea. He is keeping his people in-check (we saw examples of that in this episode), and some of these people are real scum (e.g. see the guy who was perving on Enid and getting a power play out of her). Many of these people are in-thrall to Negan, and they're doing quite nicely out of this set up thank you very much - kill Negan and you've got chaos on your hand. It'd be unbridled rape and pillage and slaughter in moments. Valid point about same page. Especially when 2 top dogs, Rick and Michonne, aren't. Heck Negan was knocking and no look out saw his convoy role up. Man Ricks speech to Deanna about fighting is just gone. His leadership deserves criticism. Im not calling for his death as Wylde has said but his trusting a psychopath in the mold of a flamboyant Governor is concerning. His system will pay off no doubt similar to Rocky Balboa coming back from brink of defeat. But inventory lady nearly died over a .22 and glock 19, over his lay down law. Then we see Carl commit an obvious insult to Negan's leadership and no one gets bashed. Essentially Negan is a loose canon and should not be trusted on anything he says. Killing Negan could also create an implosion and in fighting amongst the saviors. Without Negans presence and guidance I'd say team Rick was winning 50 or so to 0. Negan clearly has organizational traits that if eliminated could tip the scale. Kill the head of the snake so to speak. Chaos of rape and pillage has been faced before and dealt with by Rick. Chaos is an everyday event in a world with the walking dead. IMO the lesson of the Gov should prevail and that is to kill that mother fucker and deal with the rest. My opinion only is this way because of the way Negan arrived at the gates with Daryl in tow and a bunched up and funneled enemy. Had Negan sent a contingent to the gate and sat back 200 yards with a reactionary force with Daryl strapped to the hood of a ramming vehicle and this fact is pointed out to Rick immediately, my ambush mindset would change. A spread out enemy prepared to react and attack changes my response. I think it was a Marine general that said "I don't kill everyone I meet but I have a plan to kill everyone I meet".

[Wyldwraith]

Here's the BOTTOM LINE: TWD writers had a BEAUTIFUL chance to do something DIFFERENT. Build Neegan up as this terrifying monster with the on-their-knees scene...and then just..BOOM, have it ended JUST THAT FAST the very next time the Saviors came to interact with the Alexandrians. It would've been intelligent, it would've clicked with those of us viewers who like to examine the scenarios our shows present us with and ask ourselves "What's the Intelligent Thing the characters should do here?" The whiplash of defying the Standard Post-Apocalyptic Warlord Oppression Trope would've powered all of Season 7. What do we get instead? A tired-as-a-50-year-old-whore Trope of Post-Apocalyptic Oppression Overcome Eventually by the Plucky Underdogs. ::YAWN:: We've seen it a THOUSAND TIMES before. Doing it on TV doesn't make it new, different or special. To TOP IT OFF we get IDIOCY like an Arsenal Inventory Sheet. Yes, because I'm SURE the majority of Post-Apocalyptic Communities keep neatly itemized sheets of arms and ammunition. I mean the Post-Apocalyptic ATF might come and do an inspection right? We're arguing here about crossing items off the Inventory Sheet, or the virtues of hiding vs not hiding portions of the guns, and it MISSES THE POINT that there SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN AN INVENTORY TO BEGIN WITH. No one EVER mentioned having such an inventory in Alexandria before now. In FACT, we know they DIDN'T have one under Deanna because Rick and Carol were sneaking off with guns ALL THE TIME! So what, Deanna died and Rick sat down and said "Yanno, what we really need here is an itemized list of arms and ammunition. I mean we have SO MUCH that simply having someone in charge of the Armory keeping rough track of how much ammo in each caliber we've got COULDN'T POSSIBLY work, right? No, the writers just magically invented such an Itemized Inventory out of nowhere to conveniently divest Alexandria of its firepower for ease of sloppy writing. They have other fucked up stuff they want the Saviors to do to Team Rick, and they needed to preemptively answer the question "Why doesn't Rick just have these assholes shot when they go WAY TOO FAR?" So, rather than put an ounce of creative effort into making their plotline work, they shovel this gradeschool-writing-project-level slop onscreen. Hey, no one's gonna call us on the double standard of preparing a fake grave for Maggie, but NOT hiding the arms we need if we EVER want to be free of these monsters. I mean, why BOTHER keeping Maggie alive now that any Alexandrian can be butchered on-whim by the Saviors? Is this a world Maggie is going to want to live in? One where she has NO CHANCE at the revenge that means far more to her than hers and Glenn's baby? No one (says the writers) is going to call us on having the Saviors patiently wait in a tight knot at the gate, PERFECT to be eradicated by the blast of the RPG the Alexandrians just so happen to have on-hand. Course not, that'd be expecting us to honor concepts like common sense and accepted human behavior when confronted with violence. (And for the record: Rick's response after the near-miss with cutting Carl's arm off would be arguably genuine if he was Carl's mother, but NOT Carl's father. Fathers tend to think of using force when their offspring are threatened. Not Absolute Capitulation that leaves said offspring in constant danger. But hey, why quibble? "Service" Didn't. Make. Sense. Period.

[Moon Knight]

I took it as quick thinking as Gabriel was still dusting dirt off himself and Rick himself looked a bit surprised, but who knows exactly. Planning it makes more sense but the scene didn't come off like that to me. The tension involving Spencer was great. I didn't know if he was gonna make it through this one or not. Olivia was always safe to me.