My Lai 2012?

[Mike70]

Sorry to hear you're still going through that Mike, I knew you'd served but didnt realise you were affected by it that much. Shame theres that fucking great big ocean in the way or I'd say get your arse out for a beer with me! thanks, dude. i was there at the beginning dec92 until early jun 93. those were the wild west days in somalia. the rules of engagment were so loose that literally any somali that pointed a weapon in your general direction could be engaged with impunity - and they were until they got the lesson. how things ever reached the pitch they did in oct 93 is beyond me. we had the somalis utterly terrified of our very existence. and to be honest, there were times when i simply wanted to just kill them all. war is the most powerful thing in the world. nothing can stand up to it and nothing can stop it until it has run its course, whatever that be. that is the reason that it isn't to be trifled with. that's why i keep the homeric hymn to ares in my wallet and have for years. there is part of it in my sig. ares was more a god of conflict and could be propitiated in different ways, not just to go out and crack heads. but that is a subject for another thread.

[Legion2213]

Let's put this into perspective...this guy was a rogue element, probably snapped, 200 or 300 years ago, armies came to countries and generally destroyed anything in their path, the western powers for all their faults do try their best to limit civilian casualties, only 70 years ago, the axis armies rolled into cities and there were mass rapes, mass executions, horrendous torture etc, and that was doctrine. Hell, look at what was going on in Darfur and the DR Congo with non western armies...mass rapes, genocide, mass displacement, ethnic cleansing, pre teen children forced into war fighting etc. Let's not get too guilt ridden here, if we had the mentallity of some nations around the world, there would be 10's of millions dead in Afghanistan. We ain't perfect, but we still aren't as bad as most.

[SymphonicX]

Now I feel bad because I didn't say what I was truly intending to say at the start - that there's a real possibility that the soldier involved is just as much a victim in this situation as anyone else. PTSD is life ruining - which I know is an obvious statement but for too long now we expect our soldiers to go out, fight intense wars, then return to civvy street as though nothing happened. It's a bizarre and unrealistic viewpoint. I know it's gotten better but I truly believe PTSD is vastly underestimated in the field of the military. I remember watching a documentary about returning US soldiers from Iraq - and some of their stories were just shocking - one guy pulled a gun in a bar fight and pulled the trigger aiming at a dude's head - the gun didn't go off - but I certainly didn't listen to his story and feel he was even close to evil - the man was a victim of his experiences and he'd had no support upon returning from the battlefield - a pre-disposition to violence after those events isn't unrealistic. I'm no expert but I'd say it probably manifests itself in different ways depending on the person - I've no experience of PTSD and I don't wish to have any, but I'd put real hypothetical money on the soldier in this news story bing fairly fully functioning before going to war...

[Tricky]

I've no experience of PTSD and I don't wish to have any, but I'd put real hypothetical money on the soldier in this news story bing fairly fully functioning before going to war... He'd have to be, I dont know how strict the US military is on recruit selection but I was rejected by the British Army a couple of years ago over a period of anxiety I had in my early 20's. I know in myself that I'm absolutely fine now and could serve without issue, but due to that on my record there is a block on my application that so far I havent been able to overturn. They were even rejecting lads of 25 who had asthma in childhood so as far as the British army goes you have to be 100% fit mentally and physically with an unblemished record in either of those fields before they will even give you a chance at starting basic! Sure there will be people who get through who have mental problems that they've managed to keep under the radar prior to applying though...

[Legion2213]

He'd have to be, I dont know how strict the US military is on recruit selection but I was rejected by the British Army a couple of years ago over a period of anxiety I had in my early 20's. I know in myself that I'm absolutely fine now and could serve without issue, but due to that on my record there is a block on my application that so far I havent been able to overturn. They were even rejecting lads of 25 who had asthma in childhood so as far as the British army goes you have to be 100% fit mentally and physically with an unblemished record in either of those fields before they will even give you a chance at starting basic! Sure there will be people who get through who have mental problems that they've managed to keep under the radar prior to applying though... Thing is mate, the first word of PTSD is "post"...as in after. One of our own lads recently stabbed an Afghan child if you remember. I don't care how many tests are done prior to a combat deployment, nobody can guarantee that soldiers won't be affected by their experiences.

[Mike70]

Now I feel bad because I didn't say what I was truly intending to say at the start - that there's a real possibility that the soldier involved is just as much a victim in this situation as anyone else. PTSD is life ruining - which I know is an obvious statement but for too long now we expect our soldiers to go out, fight intense wars, then return to civvy street as though nothing happened. It's a bizarre and unrealistic viewpoint. I know it's gotten better but I truly believe PTSD is vastly underestimated in the field of the military. I remember watching a documentary about returning US soldiers from Iraq - and some of their stories were just shocking - one guy pulled a gun in a bar fight and pulled the trigger aiming at a dude's head - the gun didn't go off - but I certainly didn't listen to his story and feel he was even close to evil - the man was a victim of his experiences and he'd had no support upon returning from the battlefield - a pre-disposition to violence after those events isn't unrealistic. I'm no expert but I'd say it probably manifests itself in different ways depending on the person - I've no experience of PTSD and I don't wish to have any, but I'd put real hypothetical money on the soldier in this news story bing fairly fully functioning before going to war... well my dear internet friend, i do have experience with PTSD - big time and it is one of the most debilitating things that can happen to a person. it will literally change everything about you and make you act in ways that you would never dream. that does not deflect personal responsibility though. everyone, except for the most serious mentally ill person, understands basic right from wrong. there is a big difference between killing someone who is trying to do the same to you and simply walking through a ville and slaughtering people. @legion: i agree with you. this guy probably just frakking snapped or was a sick dude to begin with. everyone's threshold for stress is different. nor am i trying to deflect any responsibility from him. i'm simply sharing a bit of my own experience AFTER being in a fucked, dangerous place that i didn't even want to step a toenail in in the first place. i don't mind sharing this info. i've known a few of you for over a decade and have had conversations about my struggles with PTSD with several members over the years i've been here. this place has helped me deal with a lot of shit, even if it seems that i go off crazy from time to time, this place has been an important part of my being a decently functioning adult. the more you face up to things you've been through and talk about them, dump negative feelings (sorry andy and neil), and clear out the trash that fills your head after such an experience the better you feel. I had a conversation with an old WWII vet at the clinic one day and i mentioned how i wished i had come in and admitted my problem a long time before. he looked at me and literally said, "son, you are the lucky one. i've lived with and carried on my heart the things that happened to my friends and i in the pacific for nearly 70 years. it ruined my life. you are the lucky one, you are young and life won't pass you by." i'll never forget that even if i never run across that old dude again. sorry, i've run on again but this is something that hits me really hard. that's why i said in my first post that i've had to numb myself to it- that wasn't really the truth. there's no way to be numb because 20 years ago, i could've easily been in that guy's shoes. anyone who wants to, esp. vets can hit me up via PM anytime about shit like this. this is something i really don't mind talking about.

[Legion2213]

Mike, your posts are probably the most relevant and informative on this thread...I've never been near the armed forces or fought in a real theatre of war (like the majority of our members I suspect). You've provided better insight than any of us could.

[Mike70]

Mike, your posts are probably the most relevant and informative on this thread...I've never been near the armed forces or fought in a real theatre of war (like the majority of our members I suspect). You've provided better insight than any of us could. thanks. i'm just throwing my 2 cents and providing a bit of perspective. i certainly hope that no one is thinking that i am defending this guy's behavior or trying to make excuses for him. i'm just trying to point that we pay for everything in life we do. sometimes right on the spot, sometimes years later. as i've gotten older it's gotten harder to simply tell myself "oh well, they would've killed me." when you kill someone, even in war, i have discovered that you pay for it for a very long time, in some cases, the rest of your life. i hope that won't be my experience. the whole africa thing was why on july 29, 1994 i told the army (in the words of the song) "drop the leash, drop the leash - get out of my fuckin' face." damn shame because i really liked the army. i loved the feeling of belonging, being wanted, being valued, i loved the camraderie between my brothers (in arms) and i. i loved getting to do things the average person doesn't. that is one of the reason's i like going to the VA for healthcare needs. not only is it free, it's like belonging to a life long club where other vets are genuinely concerned about you and what is going on with you. the new VA is nothing like the old and if it stays this way, i'll never go anywhere else again.

[SymphonicX]

Let's put this into perspective...this guy was a rogue element, probably snapped, 200 or 300 years ago, armies came to countries and generally destroyed anything in their path, the western powers for all their faults do try their best to limit civilian casualties, only 70 years ago, the axis armies rolled into cities and there were mass rapes, mass executions, horrendous torture etc, and that was doctrine. Hell, look at what was going on in Darfur and the DR Congo with non western armies...mass rapes, genocide, mass displacement, ethnic cleansing, pre teen children forced into war fighting etc. Let's not get too guilt ridden here, if we had the mentallity of some nations around the world, there would be 10's of millions dead in Afghanistan. We ain't perfect, but we still aren't as bad as most. Simply relating past events to your current misfortunes is no way of either justifying or rationalising them. Medicine was a barbaric, unhygenic and in most cases downright dangerous practise 200-300 years ago..... ....but I certainly wouldn't see a loved one's death in such a trivialised perspective, if that person had been killed through systemic negligence. And I'm sure your statement there would be literally no comfort to the families who have died - some might even call it disrespectful! yeah things were bad many moons ago and they are still bad now in some areas - but the bottom line is you could justify a lot of atrocities with that perspective....

[shootemindehead]

In addition, it may be just spin that the "rouge element" acted entirely alone. I would be suspect. Military bodies ALWAYS try to limit misdoings by pointing the finger at lone scapegoats. In the context of the thread, there was great effort to pin My Li on Lt Calley alone, until it came out that he did not act alone. Afghan elders have rejected the US Army's simplistic explanation and have said that it would have been utterly impossible for only one man to have killed these people, based on reports from the familes concerned.

[Mike70]

In addition, it may be just spin that the "rouge element" acted entirely alone. I would be suspect. Military bodies ALWAYS try to limit misdoings by pointing the finger at lone scapegoats. In the context of the thread, there was great effort to pin My Li on Lt Calley alone, until it came out that he did not act alone. Afghan elders have rejected the US Army's simplistic explanation and have said that it would have been utterly impossible for only one man to have killed these people, based on reports from the familes concerned. there may be some truth in this. from my own personal experience in the army the one thing you don't do is break faith with your brothers. i would literally have died before i testified against someone that i served with, regardless of what they had done. i know that sounds horrible but there are bonds that are much, much stronger than the truth and, to some people, more important than it. the bonds you form with people in the military are deep and i mean deep on the level of blood relations. those kinds of ties are hard to break (impossible in some cases). this, again, is no excuse for what happened. i am merely, once again, adding my own perspective as someone who spent 6 months dealing with this kind of shit. i know that our unit had to send a couple of people home because they just couldn't handle what was going on and there were fears that they would pull some shit exactly like this dude did. my room mate was one of the people that was sent home because his behavior was becoming dangerous, both to somali civilians and to us.

[shootemindehead]

Mike, your words coincide with quite a few others that I've heard. I knew you'd served, but haven't asked where before, but in this thread I've learned that you were part of America's action in Somalia in the early 90's. I'm certainly not schooled in that period, although I am aware of Ops "Provide relief", "Restore hope" and obviously the Mogadishu thing. However, stories from servicemen are conspicuous in their similarity. That is, when the bullets start to fly, you learn to rely on the "guy next to you" and he relies on you and any kind of bullshit beliefs you may have/had disappears very quickly and all that matters is getting through ti the next day. Such is the basis of the bond of which you refer to (I think) and I would venture that such bonds are extremely difficult to break, no matter what the circumstances are. I agree with you, it's no excuse for any excess. But "reasons" are different to "excuses". I've never served myself, nor would I (I have to say), however, my family has a history of involvement in World War I and World II. In fact, I've just been looking through my relatives service record from the first World War tonight. But, in my time, I've had the opportunity to discuss "the war" (i.e. WWII) with a number of servicemen and your words equal theirs with incredible accuracy.

[Mike70]

now i am utterly pissed off about this. the dude responsible, Robert Bales, was from Cincinnati. my home town. thanks asshole. he was from Norwood, a place which is filled to the brim with white trash and morons. sorry but having grown up on the affluent eastern side of cincinnati, west siders and folks from Norwood are considered little better than orcs by people on my side of town and most times they act like it. the only places lower in the pecking order around here are the Over-the-Rhine and Price Hill neighborhoods. what a typical piece of white trash shit. sorry, but knowing this guy is from here has greatly irritated me. people here are going batshit about this. the police are having to protect his mother and some other members of his family and they have implored the media not to publish the names or addresses of any of his relatives.

[Tricky]

From what I'm reading, the actions of this one guy have pretty much undone every sacrifice and piece of good work that has been done by the international forces in Afghanistan over the past 10 years! I know there have been a lot of incidents over there previous to this which have pissed off the Afghans, such as badly placed CAS strikes, drone strikes, troops killing cattle (as seen in Restrepo), the book burning thing and probably far too many others to count, but this one incident caused by this one guy seems to have done more damage than anything else. I would say its time to leave, the only reason we're still there is down to politicians not wanting to lose face by admitting that staying there after driving the Taliban & Al Qeada out in the initial assault was a bad idea...

[Sammich]

The Afghan parliamentary investigation is reporting that this was not the work of a single soldier. This coincides with early witness statements that there were multiple soldiers (possibly inebriated) carrying out the attack. Up to 20 US troops executed Panjwai massacre: probe The team spent two days in the province, interviewing the bereaved families, tribal elders, survivors and collecting evidences at the site in Panjwai district. Hamizai Lali told Pajhwok Afghan News their investigation showed there were 15 to 20 American soldiers, who executed the brutal killings. “We closely examined the site of the incident, talked to the families who lost their beloved ones, the injured people and tribal elders,” he said. He added the attack lasted one hour involving two groups of American soldiers in the middle of the night on Sunday. “The villages are one and a half kilometre from the American military base. We are convinced that one soldier cannot kill so many people in two villages within one hour at the same time, and the 16 civilians, most of them children and women, have been killed by the two groups.”