TWD 4x14 "The Grove" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Moon Knight]

The kids were fine. Some people just have to have SOMETHING to complain about. I always say, if you don't like the show just stop watching. Much easier than complaining.

[MinionZombie]

*Sad sigh* Probably had to see it coming, still didn't make it easier to take. Powerful episode. In a lot of ways it took on a more powerful resolution & connotations than it did in the comic TBH, because of the persons involved & the way it was handled, the depth of the story arc, etc. :cry: Yeh, I thought the two kids did a good job myself. The girl playing Lizzie especially. That's not an easy role, even for an adult. A gut puncher of an episode. Andrew Lincoln had spoken of how in the last few episodes they really go far out there - and I figured this is what he was going to refer to. Great acting all-round. I think the child actors on this show are damn good - I don't get the Carl hate at all - he's been great in season 3 and 4. Kids don't have the world figured out, hell, most adults don't either, so they're never going to have perfect clarity of vision in any given moment at the drop of a hat. They knew there was something iffy about Lizzie, but why would they be so inclined to think she'd kill her own sister so she could be resurrected? The look on their faces said it all. Amazing acting all round, but Melissa McBride owns the hell out of this episode - SUPERB stuff. Nice to see the Lizzie/Carol/Karen & David/Tyreese plot thread tied up. I also liked that the fire was close by - that Daryl and Beth had been relatively close by - and obviously this shows that in this back half of the season they're jumping back and forth in time, so it wouldn't surprise me that much is Daryl was getting beaten up downstairs - unseen by Rick - in the episode where we last saw Rick (4x11 IIRC). Burned walkers always look cool on-screen, but I was glad that this episode was mostly about the characters. Very satisfying meat to chew on. ... ALSO - please remember that not everyone reads the comics, or has caught up with the comics yet - so when referring to plot elements from the comic, please wrap the details in spoiler tags (visit the forum FAQ to see how to do them if you don't know). ... TWD 4x14 memes: http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2014/...dead-4x14.html And...

[Publius]

As much as Lizzie needed to go, that scene was really emotional; just knowing what's coming and the girl being totally oblivious. Good stuff, man. I wonder how oblivious Lizzie was. Considering her posture and the way she was apologizing, I kinda think we saw Lizzie pretending to be oblivious and Carol pretending not to know Lizzie was pretending.

[MinionZombie]

I wonder how oblivious Lizzie was. Considering her posture and the way she was apologizing, I kinda think we saw Lizzie pretending to be oblivious and Carol pretending not to know Lizzie was pretending. Ooh, yes, good reading of the scene there. I think that's possibly what was going on there. A seriously good piece of drama right there. Sensitively handled too - we don't need to actually see the kids being killed - we just need to know and, really, it's more effective not seeing. Far more effective is the reactions on the faces of those discovering the death - or in the case of Carol - executing the child killer. Such a fucked up scene when you think about it all, and I have to say - more satisfying and meaty as a plot line in the TV show version. This will definitely be one that lingers in the memory for a long time. So, with just a couple of episodes left, 4x12 "Still" seems to have just been a relative blip (still good stuff in there, even some excellent stuff, but that episode in particular didn't have enough content to see out the running time, and the 'search for booze' quest felt lacking by comparison to far more arresting missions of purpose happening to other groups at the same time. Nice use of music in this episode too, not only that creepy opening piece playing from an old LP, but the score too. After Carol shoots Lizzie - oof, a big old smack in the feels right there. I also loved the close of the episode with those shots looking around the house, with the handful of lines of dialogue that went back over some of the key themes from this episode (and indeed, entire season). Those last 10 or 15 minutes of the episode is an example of TWD at it's very best.

[Legion2213]

Wow, where to start with this one? They raised the "Legion might just cry" bar up a notch with this episode, they really did. First thing I'm gonna say is that these kids were not "crappy child actors" at all, especially the kid playing Lizzie. I think they were as good as you could expect and carried their roles well. So many gut wrenching scenes in this episode, you could really see that Lizzie wasn't "born evil", she was horribly fucking disturbed and traumatised by the shitty messed up world she lived in, she was no less a victim of the end of the world than anybody else IMO. Little Mica was trying to deal with it in a different way, a sweet kid at heart, looking after her sister. Absolutely shocked and upset at her death. Carol's confession and Tyrese's reaction were just TV gold...this character has just elevated himself in my eyes from somebody I really wasn't too concerned about to a major person in this show...fucking respect big man...respect! The final scene with Carol and Lizzie reminded me of the classic "Survivors" episode "law and order" where they (wrongly) executed the gentle retarded guy...the executioners were very upset at what they had to do, knowing that a killer had to be taken out as there no prisons anymore and exile could just see him kill somebody else in the future, but retaining enough humanity to be disgusted by what they had to do. This could be the most emotional episode of TWD to date...they totally hit it out the park (to coin an American phrase) The burned walkers looked brilliant!

[Publius]

Ooh, yes, good reading of the scene there. I think that's possibly what was going on there. It reminded me of the end of Donnie Brasco, where "Lefty Two-Guns" Ruggiero gets summoned to a "meeting" after it's revealed that Brasco was an undercover FBI agent. He's driven to the meeting by a couple of other mob associates. Everyone knows he's going to get killed, but no one lets on that they know the purpose of the meeting. That was based on the real-life fate of "Sonny Black" Napolitano.

[Legion2213]

The "look at the flowers" thing. Got the impression that this is something that was "learned" by Mica long before the outbreak...something that their parents (or child psychologist) taught. I think Lizzie may have had some problems from her "previous life" that just spiraled into full blown insanity after "the end". Mica also said that Lizzie had always been messed up. Thoughts?

[Moon Knight]

I believe Lizzie was messed up prior to the ZA. With no medication or doctors there really wasn't any hope for her.

[Legion2213]

I believe Lizzie was messed up prior to the ZA. With no medication or doctors there really wasn't any hope for her. Yeah, it looks that way from this episode. And medication aside, disturbed kid + dead people rising from the grave and eating other people is always going to have a bad result on the mentally unstable/disturbed. It was really easy to hate on her when she was cutting on fluffy bunnies and being all creepy and stuff...but by the end of this episode I just felt really bad for her. Great writing on this one.

[Moon Knight]

Yeah, it looks that way from this episode. And medication aside, disturbed kid + dead people rising from the grave and eating other people is always going to have a bad result on the mentally unstable/disturbed. It was really easy to hate on her when she was cutting on fluffy bunnies and being all creepy and stuff...but by the end of this episode I just felt really bad for her. Great writing on this one. I agree. I wanted her gone; especially after the way she handled Judith, but hearing her cry and asking Carol not to be mad because she pointed the gun at her really disturbed me; in a good way. For the record, her asking Carol not to be mad cause she pointed the gun instead of the fact that she killed her own little sister was downright fucked up. Tyreese forgiving Carol was perfect. A true portrayal of his character. Man, I loved this episode.

[MoonSylver]

I also loved the close of the episode with those shots looking around the house, with the handful of lines of dialogue that went back over some of the key themes from this episode (and indeed, entire season). Those last 10 or 15 minutes of the episode is an example of TWD at it's very best. I was quite struck by that too. It was funny how quickly that had become "their" house, how they had fallen into a (dysfunctional) family pattern of sorts. It completly emphasized why they couldn't stay. That house was now completely haunted in the metaphorical sense. Just thinking about it gives me the creeps and makes me sad all at the same time. The "look at the flowers" thing. Got the impression that this is something that was "learned" by Mica long before the outbreak...something that their parents (or child psychologist) taught. I think Lizzie may have had some problems from her "previous life" that just spiraled into full blown insanity after "the end". Mica also said that Lizzie had always been messed up. Thoughts? The mentioned in TTD afterward that it was something that Carol & Mica had Lizzie do in their Dad's death scene in the prison.

[kidgloves]

The mentioned in TTD afterward that it was something that Carol & Mica had Lizzie do in their Dad's death scene in the prison. Not sure but I think their dad might have said it rather than Carol.

[Neil]

Good episode, I'm pretty satisfied with how they tied up all of those loose ends. The smoking zombies were pretty cool, too. Yep, fairly good episode. I enjoyed it! But the smoking zombies annoyed me:- 1) They were still heavily smoking? Having been on fire numerous hours ago? 2) The girls ran well ahead of them, only for the zombies to magically catch up with them at the fence? At first I thought it was going to be a huge horde, just like the wild life, heading away from the fire. - - - Updated - - - The final scene with Carol and Lizzie reminded me of the classic "Survivors" episode "law and order" where they (wrongly) executed the gentle retarded guy...the executioners were very upset at what they had to do, knowing that a killer had to be taken out as there no prisons anymore and exile could just see him kill somebody else in the future, but retaining enough humanity to be disgusted by what they had to do. I recall that!

[zombieparanoia]

I thought it was pretty good. I thought Lizzy was played well by the actress but the character itself was always kind of a "why has noone else noticed this little girl is batshit crazy before?" The entire belief that the walkers are just different and want to help us change, wtf? Just reminded me of this skit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1byycwl8qgc I was surprised that carol survived to return but it's a shame because I've started liking her more which likely means she'll be killed soon.

[Neil]

I was surprised that carol survived to return but it's a shame because I've started liking her more which likely means she'll be killed soon. You'd hear Andy cheering from miles away if that were too happen