Thoughts on the Walking Dead to Date.

[facestabber]

Holy shit Wylde is riled!!!! Damnit I have to back out of this one because I have become addicted to spoilers and know exactly where this season is going. I completely understand your hesitation with the Saviors and specifically Negans method. I have no idea how it will translate to tv. This show calls for a suspension of belief. At different scales of course. But how did Adolf Hitler rise to power? A good salesman can sell. Someway and somehow Negan sold enough to establish what he has. I guess we'll see. Side note. Been watching the marathon. The show doesn't have the initial magic it had. Still a great ride but I loved season 1 and 2.

[Wyldwraith]

How did an insane house painter rise to be Fuhrer of Nazi Germany? He had a cadre of evil geniuses using him as a figurehead to promote their agenda. On his own we never would've heard the name Adolf Hitler. Look at his beer hall attempt at a power grab. That's Adolf acting on his own. Ie: An Epic Fail. Show me a half dozen masterful sociopathic manipulators quietly behind Neegan and I'll happily shut up and buy into him. A guy who bashes in people's heads with a barbed wire covered bat as part of a sick version of a children's game is NOT the sort who gets dozens of guys to go "Yeah, THIS is the man I want making the decisions that'll lead to me living or dying today." In other words: Why would anyone ever believe they were safe from being the NEXT people Neegan forced on their knees before him?

[shootemindehead]

Well, actually uncle Adolf did quite well on his own for much of his time when he joined the nazi party in 1919 and through him - in about 10 years - it rose from a back of a pub right wing whiners club to the level of a competitor for national government. The caveat being the terrible state of affairs that Germany found herself in after the crash in 1929 and the limp wristed attempts at change that were coming from Weimar. However, many Germans had saw through the nazis by 1933 and support was dropping away, especially from the working classes - many of whom previously saw them as an acceptable German born alternative to the Communists and Socialists, whose political mechanisations were always viewed as Russian in Germany. Unfortunately, an aging Hindenburg and a surrounding elite sought to use Hitler and the nazis' popularity for their own ends. A move that would backfire in a most spectacular way. It was Hindenburg who greased the way for Hitler to become Chancellor in 1933. But, yes, a "good" salesman - coupled with the "right" circumstances - can hold a certain lure for many, including those who don't necessarily hold the same views or agree with the methods employed. Hitler made sure that he said just enough to appeal to everyone in all levels of Germany society. He was one of the first "modern" populist politicians and his support reflected that, coming from every echelon, from out of work plumbers, to shop owners, to industrial magnates. Quite a remarkable achievement. But it remains to be seen how 'The Walking Dead' handle Negan. In the books, I don't recall any instances where I though that this is bunkum, however, it's been a while since I've read the comics, I'll admit. But I don't know how the show is going to play this out. They could do it well. They could also make a real balls of it. I guess a lot comes down to the writing and how Jeffery Morgan plays him.

[Wyldwraith]

I'm not disputing Hitler had gifts: I was simply saying there was a 0.0% chance he ever would've risen to enjoy the near-absolute power over Germany he did without the inner circle of the Nazi elite who, with their various specialties turned the Nazi political engine into the juggernaut it became. Look at the Holocaust for example: There is NO FUCKING WAY Hitler could've handled the sheer logistics of simply moving that many people about, dealing with all the minutiae of organizing the camps, arranging the meticulous systems of record keeping for the mass thefts of valuables from the Jews, Homosexuals, Romany, Mentally Challenged, and Communists/Other Political Dissidents that were systematically murdered..Hitler threw temper tantrums when informed that military units that had been wiped out were no longer available for use. This was no a logistics-guy. The same goes for the hunting down of the Nazi party's enemies. Hitler wasn't the relentless, remorseless hunter that made those guys into the feared death squad they became. No, at each and every turn there was a supporting evil genius providing their unique skills to the Nazi conglomerate. Neegan on the other hand shows none of that sophistication. His towering arrogance, seemingly unlimited sadism, inability to comprehend deepseated emotional bonds and inability to persuade without force or threat of force basically labels him as nothing but a playground bully whose achieved his full physical growth and who has somehow had a massive post-apocalyptic war machine just dropped into his lap. Want proof he couldn't build that machine? If ANY of Rick's group survive to rise from their knees (as they will) it's strong evidence that Neegan has likely made the mistake of allowing dangerous adversaries to live when he could've eliminated them before. So, how is it that no one else whose friends and loved ones skulls he caved in before their eyes just picked up a splinter of wood while on neutralized Walker disposal duty, stuck said splinter in rotted Walker viscera and then simply scratched Neegan with it? With endless supplies of a 100%-lethality bioweapon lying about, it doesn't take even a traditionally crude lethal weapon to kill someone. Hell, get some Walker guts on your *fingernails* and scratch the bastard. A lunge in his direction would likely carry you close enough to do the job. Even if his security reacted like trained bodyguards and shot the attempted assassin, this isn't an action movie. Bullet impacts don't hurl bodies about. If you don't hit someone in the head or spine with anything short of a shotgun at close range or a high-capacity automatic weapon that just riddles them, your average healthy adult will have something like 20 seconds on their feet with significant motor function even with bullets in both lungs and a shredded abdomen. There was a case down here in Florida where a 5'5, 132lbs 17yr old boy broke into a Leesburg home to sexually assault a teacher who had humiliated him. She shot him 5 times at point-blank range with a .38. 4 bullets in the torso and one in the side of the neck. He lasted long enough to strangle her to death and cut her throat down to the tough material of the neck ligaments. They found him sprawled across her body. Manual strangulation isn't a quick affair. He began it, carried it out, and had time to pull out a sharp implement and start sawing before the massive bleeding finally drove him into shock and killed him. If someone wanted Neegan dead and was willing to die to do it, he'd be dead...and judging by his behavior, this is a guy who regularly creates people with little left to lose. Rejoinders?

[facestabber]

I'm not disputing Hitler had gifts: I was simply saying there was a 0.0% chance he ever would've risen to enjoy the near-absolute power over Germany he did without the inner circle of the Nazi elite who, with their various specialties turned the Nazi political engine into the juggernaut it became. Look at the Holocaust for example: There is NO FUCKING WAY Hitler could've handled the sheer logistics of simply moving that many people about, dealing with all the minutiae of organizing the camps, arranging the meticulous systems of record keeping for the mass thefts of valuables from the Jews, Homosexuals, Romany, Mentally Challenged, and Communists/Other Political Dissidents that were systematically murdered..Hitler threw temper tantrums when informed that military units that had been wiped out were no longer available for use. This was no a logistics-guy. The same goes for the hunting down of the Nazi party's enemies. Hitler wasn't the relentless, remorseless hunter that made those guys into the feared death squad they became. No, at each and every turn there was a supporting evil genius providing their unique skills to the Nazi conglomerate. Neegan on the other hand shows none of that sophistication. His towering arrogance, seemingly unlimited sadism, inability to comprehend deepseated emotional bonds and inability to persuade without force or threat of force basically labels him as nothing but a playground bully whose achieved his full physical growth and who has somehow had a massive post-apocalyptic war machine just dropped into his lap. Want proof he couldn't build that machine? If ANY of Rick's group survive to rise from their knees (as they will) it's strong evidence that Neegan has likely made the mistake of allowing dangerous adversaries to live when he could've eliminated them before. So, how is it that no one else whose friends and loved ones skulls he caved in before their eyes just picked up a splinter of wood while on neutralized Walker disposal duty, stuck said splinter in rotted Walker viscera and then simply scratched Neegan with it? With endless supplies of a 100%-lethality bioweapon lying about, it doesn't take even a traditionally crude lethal weapon to kill someone. Hell, get some Walker guts on your *fingernails* and scratch the bastard. A lunge in his direction would likely carry you close enough to do the job. Even if his security reacted like trained bodyguards and shot the attempted assassin, this isn't an action movie. Bullet impacts don't hurl bodies about. If you don't hit someone in the head or spine with anything short of a shotgun at close range or a high-capacity automatic weapon that just riddles them, your average healthy adult will have something like 20 seconds on their feet with significant motor function even with bullets in both lungs and a shredded abdomen. There was a case down here in Florida where a 5'5, 132lbs 17yr old boy broke into a Leesburg home to sexually assault a teacher who had humiliated him. She shot him 5 times at point-blank range with a .38. 4 bullets in the torso and one in the side of the neck. He lasted long enough to strangle her to death and cut her throat down to the tough material of the neck ligaments. They found him sprawled across her body. Manual strangulation isn't a quick affair. He began it, carried it out, and had time to pull out a sharp implement and start sawing before the massive bleeding finally drove him into shock and killed him. If someone wanted Neegan dead and was willing to die to do it, he'd be dead...and judging by his behavior, this is a guy who regularly creates people with little left to lose. Rejoinders? Negan's survival will be much like Hitlers. Many people want him dead. Some will try. At some point someone will succeed at it. Negan must have enough of a buffer around him. Hopefully that is explored. What we don't know is how his rise to power happened. I doubt Lucille was built day 1 of ZA and he bashed brains in and requested followers from same group. I 100% agree with you that his current method is bad policy. He is absolutely creating dangerous adversaries. Imagine team Rick member gets bit. May as well give that person a suicidal mission to assassinate Negan. Though his saviors will retaliate and probably kill more TR members. But this is the game Negan wants to play. He is a dick. An absolute bully. Doubt he plans to live to old age given his methods but he sure as hell is gonna live it up while he can. I do get your pov wylde I'm just more willing to let Negans story play out.

[Moon Knight]

Then explain to me how this guy ended up heading a veritable army YEARS into the Zombie Apocalypse. What makes him amazing and fun? From where I'm sitting he's stock Psychopathic ZA Warlord-trope. He feels like a real departure from TWD's normally top-notch villain building. The Governor was three dimensional. Gareth wasn't perfect, but he fell within the bounds of believability (if at the outer edges of it). Even Dawn made a great deal of sense. Neegan just seems like a Mwahaha mustache twirler. When I see that commercial with him grinning and boasting "I'm EVERYWHERE!" It literally makes me *cringe*. You can't push people as hard and fast as he pushes. If you do something like that Rick and Co. kneeling before him and him eeny, meeney, miney-ing to decide who dies, you have to kill them ALL. The Zombie Apocalypse is already a nightmarish place to live. If you try to sell someone on living in it, AND under the boot-heel of a douchebag like Neegan they'll rebel even if they're 90% likely to get killed. Let me ask you something Moon Knight. Take you for example: You've lived through what Rick and Co. have lived through already. Would YOU spend six months to a year living under that psycho's boot trying to come up with a master plan to take him out...or would you just push back? I mean your life is already a shitfest where you have to wake up every day wondering if the day ends with you getting pulled apart and eaten alive...What kind of person beyond the most through and through of cowards cares enough about simply continuing to breathe to put up with the ZA PLUS being the serf of some sadistic warlord? The jews at Masada had no illusions about somehow defeating or repelling the Romans. They still chose to die rather than put up with Roman shit anymore. THEIR lives weren't as bad under Roman rule as Rick and Co's lives were BEFORE Neegan. What kind of parent would accept their children growing up slaves who ALSO have to worry about being eaten? I just don't get it. I can't answer that without spoilng anything; besides, you seem to watch things with the intent on just nitpicking and finding holes rather than just enjoying something. You can't always find logic in something fantasy. You only know of Negan from like 10 min screen time and already writing him off. I'm sorry, I think he's a charasmatic psychotic mastermind with a sick sense of humor. You don't think people like that really exist? I suggest give him a chance. If you don't like him I suggest reconsidering follow the show because he's gonna be a MAJOR character, not just a second rate filler villain. Just a heads up.

[Wyldwraith]

I don't simply nitpick. If I did I wouldn't bother putting the amount of thought into my points that I do. Am I worried TWD is on a downward trajectory? Yes. It seems to be the fate of all good shows that four to six seasons of great success convinces those involved they can do no wrong. They end up mistaking fan loyalty for their own often inflated sense of talent/achievement. I'm sorry if I have realistic, easily achievable expectations for my entertainment. Take the moral angle of character motivations in the show. It's pretty much a truism of TWD that pretty much ANYTHING the characters morally balk at doing in one season, they'll eventually end up doing again and again without much of a twinge of conscience two seasons later. When they don't, they get punished by easily anticipated consequences falling upon their heads. Andrea not icing the Governor and ending up dead essentially by his hands being a stock example. Yet the villains are on an opposite trajectory to the protagonists morally speaking. As the protagonists moral code grows more rational as TWD's version of the ZA continues spooling outward, the villains grow less rational yet more powerful. The Governor was a great villain...until the writers decided to go huff freon over the weekend and decide "Hey, let's have him massacre all his own troops in a Kylo Ren-worthy temper tantrum! Yeah, that'll make sense!" Gareth was creepy as fuck. Until he set out on an Insane Cannibal Safari across the ZA-landscape. Punctuated with the actions of a veritable Intellectual Giant like having all his people go to sleep within eyesight of a school full of Walkers beating on the glass two hundred yards away. Suspension of disbelief is the drum that hasn't stopped being pounded every time TWD's writers misstep. Something doesn't make sense? Suspend disbelief. Character does something a retarded, excuse me, mentally challenged, five year old would know better than to do? Suspend disbelief. Walkers start flip-flopping in their capabilities, behaviors and limitations from season to season? Suspend disbelief. When is it simply a fuck up on their parts? A plain old fashioned ERROR? Must there be strenuous apologist cover-fire every time TWD fails to live up to its potential? The show has so much fucking potential it literally HURTS when one episode or plot arc they're so dead-on they've got you falling off the edge of your seat...and the next you're looking for a bucket to vomit in, and a bottle of Visine because your eyes have gotten dry from all the eye-rolling inducing developments. I'll tell you this, and you mark my words...so long as the vast majority of finds are performing mental contortions to excuse and gloss over the missteps, the writers sure aren't going to have any idea of when they're getting it right and when they're getting it wrong. They take their orders from people whose SOLE concern is what a commercial during a One Hour Block on Sunday goes for. If the rate at which those commercials can be sold stays level or increases irregardless of the quality of what hits the screen it is GUARANTEED quality will trend downward...For the simply reason its easier (and more probable) that crap gets written over genius. When a show doesn't need to try as hard as they did in Seasons 1-4 to get the same results THEY-JUST-DON'T! WHY SHOULD THEY? Look back at the threads I've been involved in. I have a genuine passion for the show. I wouldn't care so much if I didn't. I just have no interest in helping KILL one of my favorite shows by behaving as if there's no difference between Eighteen Miles Out or Clear and the Season 6 Finale.

[shootemindehead]

I'm not disputing Hitler had gifts: I was simply saying there was a 0.0% chance he ever would've risen to enjoy the near-absolute power over Germany he did without the inner circle of the Nazi elite who, with their various specialties turned the Nazi political engine into the juggernaut it became. OK, not to try and drag this thread into a "Hitler" conversation...but...Hitler MADE the nazi party into his own image, pretty much on his own. When the Reichswehr sent him to investigate what they thought was yet another leftist organisation, the virulently right Hitler came away thinking that he agreed with a lot of what anti-Marxist Drexler and the rest of the DAP were saying and that the Reichswehr had it all wrong. So impressed was Hitler that he went an joined full time after discharge and in a very short period was voted into the leadership position by its members. That alone is no mean feat. Then in just 10 years, largely through Hitler, he brought the party to a position where it could threaten other long established parties for power in Germany. That was all done mainly off of his own steam. Of course, no one man gets to run anything entirely on his own. There isn't one organisation that would have that polemic. But...and this is an important but...you don't get to be given a leadership position without offering the following something in return and that was one of Hitler's greatest strong points. Hitler was actually one of the few politicians that followed through on his promises. But - yes - no organisation, be it NASDAP, The Republicans, The B'aath Party, Labour or even Sky television runs under the steam of just one person. I don't see anyone saying that it does. But I think you are grossly mistaking Hitler for some simple lunatic that got pushed along by others, when to a very large degree it was Hitler that did the pushing. Look at the Holocaust for example: There is NO FUCKING WAY Hitler could've handled the sheer logistics of simply moving that many people about, dealing with all the minutiae of organizing the camps, arranging the meticulous systems of record keeping for the mass thefts of valuables from the Jews, Homosexuals, Romany, Mentally Challenged, and Communists/Other Political Dissidents that were systematically murdered..Hitler threw temper tantrums when informed that military units that had been wiped out were no longer available for use. This was no a logistics-guy. Put simply, Hitler didn't care for what we now call the holocaust. He left that to other hands. When the war started in 1939, almost his entire focus was put into micro managing that and bring about his one great ambition - the war against Russia. From at least 1940 right to the end in 1945, Hitler was consumed with the war and nearly nothing else. So yes, you are correct in saying that there were other hands at the tiller, but they were hands that Hitler put there and hands that had their own reasons to be there too. Again though, I don't see anyone saying that there wasn't anybody else at play in the Third Reich. However, Hitler was actually quite the "logistics guy". He actually had a very good grasp on the difficulties involved in planning large military campaigns. His idea (although some what pinched from Manstein) to thrust through the Ardennes in 1940 and to refine the plan to do so, against the "better" knowledge of his generals was a blast of military genius, especially when his generals were simply gunning for a rerun of the Schlieffen plan. Likewise, his daring operation for Wacht am Rhein was a masterstroke, given the logistic nightmare that that would have entailed at that stage of the war. Did Hitler do it all by himself? No, of course not. But he had a very large part to play. Plus, the orgaisation to simply move people to various camps around Germany and Poland pales in comparison to the logistical headaches that moving armies entails. Pulling an army from Zelnogorsk and shipping it to Libya, with its armour, equipment, ordnance, administrative staff, medical staff and a whole host of other men and material is the stuff of migraines that would make Himmler's task for liquidating undesirables look like a family trip to Disney world. Anyway, enough of Hitler. Neegan on the other hand shows none of that sophistication. His towering arrogance, seemingly unlimited sadism, inability to comprehend deepseated emotional bonds and inability to persuade without force or threat of force basically labels him as nothing but a playground bully whose achieved his full physical growth and who has somehow had a massive post-apocalyptic war machine just dropped into his lap. We haven't seen much of anything from Negan yet, so how can any conclusion be formed? He's barely had five minutes of running time in the show, so trying to conjure up a back story for him or a possible scenario for his rise to power is pure speculation at this stage. It's up to the writers to fill in those spaces and up to the actor to convince the viewer that he's not just a cardboard cutout trope. But, concluding that he's all these things without the benefit of more screen time is a bit premature, to say the least. Don't you think? In any case, I'll be right there with you pissing and moaning about how the show fucked it up if I'm not satisfied with either screenplay or Morgan's thespian activities. But let's at least give it a chance for the episodes to play first yeah?

[Wyldwraith]

WHOA, I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was saying Hitler wasn't a potent, critical facet of the Nazi rise in Germany. Of course he was. That said, I take issue with your statement that liquidating undesirables is effortless compared to military logistics. Military maneuvers have one great thing going for the General, or the General's ultimate oversight-authority. The soldiers have all consented to take the actions they're ordered to take. Maneuvering millions of people who are your unwilling prisoners is simply apples and oranges when compared to issuing an order to a General, who then conveys it down the chain of command. The one is like manipulating a large fishing net with dexterity, the other is like giving directions to a chauffeur. On Neegan: While there hasn't been much screen time as yet, we already know the guy believes he can bash in a skull and somehow convince the others to behave in a manner dovetailing with his agenda as his barbed wire covered bat drips blood, bits of bone from a depressed fracture, and perhaps some gray matter. Only an IDIOT thinks he can gain meaningful capitulation from any but the most entrenched of cowards by slaying a friend or loved one of the people whose capitulation he desires. Anyone with an IQ over 90 knows if you resort to that sort of show of force, it had better be for those watching, not those on their knees. You bash in one head in that situation, you create X # of enemies permanently committed to your painful death. It's that simple. It will always be that simple. If Neegan swings that bat, and it hits one of Team Rick in the head, he's indelibly proven to me he's an impossible fiat-construct of the writers, not a fully realized character. You cannot gain lasting capitulation through murder, anymore than torture can be used as a reliable means of accessing accurate information the intended subject of said torture doesn't wish to give you.

[shootemindehead]

WHOA, I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was saying Hitler wasn't a potent, critical facet of the Nazi rise in Germany. Of course he was. That said, I take issue with your statement that liquidating undesirables is effortless compared to military logistics. Military maneuvers have one great thing going for the General, or the General's ultimate oversight-authority. The soldiers have all consented to take the actions they're ordered to take. Maneuvering millions of people who are your unwilling prisoners is simply apples and oranges when compared to issuing an order to a General, who then conveys it down the chain of command. The one is like manipulating a large fishing net with dexterity, the other is like giving directions to a chauffeur. I never said there was no effort involved at all, but in comparison, military necessity always came first and was always logistically more complex. Way more complex. Movement of people considered "undesirable" by the state only took up a fraction of the resources that the Reich devoted to rail etc, even at its height in 1944. By far, the largest allocation was to military concerns all throughout 1942 - 45 (the period in question) and once the allies had begun to gain ground on all fronts in 1943, monumental efforts were made to move armies to and from various fronts all across Europe and Mediterranean. From a purely military POV, it's just short of a miracle what the Germans did, especially in the last year of the war. Moving civilian prisoners whose care is way down on the list of your primary concerns is very distant to moving armies, the entourage and their equipment that are fighting on behalf of a nation and who are often rushed to a front to shore up gaps in the line or tackle a salient. After studying both world wars for over 2 decades, I'm still constantly surprised and amazed at what they managed to pull off. On Neegan: While there hasn't been much screen time as yet, we already know the guy believes he can bash in a skull and somehow convince the others to behave in a manner dovetailing with his agenda as his barbed wire covered bat drips blood, bits of bone from a depressed fracture, and perhaps some gray matter. Only an IDIOT thinks he can gain meaningful capitulation from any but the most entrenched of cowards by slaying a friend or loved one of the people whose capitulation he desires. Anyone with an IQ over 90 knows if you resort to that sort of show of force, it had better be for those watching, not those on their knees. You bash in one head in that situation, you create X # of enemies permanently committed to your painful death. It's that simple. It will always be that simple. If Neegan swings that bat, and it hits one of Team Rick in the head, he's indelibly proven to me he's an impossible fiat-construct of the writers, not a fully realized character. You cannot gain lasting capitulation through murder, anymore than torture can be used as a reliable means of accessing accurate information the intended subject of said torture doesn't wish to give you. But Negan is bashing the heads of those that he and his people are in loggerheads with. He wants others to kow-tow to his group and those enemies are already there. We don't know how he handles things within his own group though yet, or what his final motives are regarding groups outside his own (well, we do in the comic). Hopefully, the television version of Negan can present us with something that we can say makes sense. But Negan has only had a few minutes on the show. We don't know much of anything yet. Look, I share your concern - I reckon we all do on here (if "concern" is the right term for something as frivolous as a TV show). I've been vocal on a good number of things where I feel the writing has been sub-par (to say the least) and I'm not easy to please with film and TV these days. It may well be that we get a poor re-run of the Governor and his bread and circuses nonsense, whereby "games" were held to entertain the people of Woodbury. That was a silly idea IMO, especially when there were families in the town. Or, we might get something else entirely. Thing is, we don't know yet.

[Wyldwraith]

Yes Neegan is bashing the heads of those he's "at loggerheads with"... BUT, he's doing it with the obvious intention of breaking the spirit of Rick and Co. His voiceover of explaining how things work in his group is obviously for newcomers. Ie: Rick and Co. So the head-bashing is his idea of integrating them into his subjugated vassal-states. My core point is that bashing in a skull cannot gain for the head-basher the kind of capitulation Neegan obviously desires. At BEST it can gain him the appearance of capitulation for a short period while Rick and Co. plot his death. How can anyone with a working brain fail to realize that people hardened by surviving this long into the ZA can't be cowed by such a simplistic show of force. Anyone whose been able to cope with the notion of possibly being eaten on any given day for this long isn't so afraid of simply being killed they'd consent to be the bitch of a madman. Hate is an incredibly powerful force. It can move mountains, overcome a body failing due to massive trauma (Reference my post about the home invader shot repeatedly at point-blank range who lasted long enough to manually strangle the object of his hatred and half cut her head off before he died) and many other all but superhuman feat-enabling. Killing someone is so damned easy in the ZA. For one thing anyone in control uses the people lowest on their totem pole to dispose of neutralized Walkers. A perfect opportunity to access a perfect bio-weapon. One scratch, no more Neegan. I mean the guy keeps a harem of women against their will. Modern women don't take well to being used as rape-toys. They're funny that way. There's just so, SO many people who'd want to kill someone who behaves like Neegan.

[kidgloves]

I'm quite positive about this season with Rick and Negan and whose playing them. It's up to the writing now which we all know is sketchy at best.

[shootemindehead]

Violence and the threat of violence has always been used to keep people in line. I'm failing to see your point here. If history has shown us anything it's that the group in power will always resort to a violent method if their power is in danger, be that at home or abroad. The difference varies in degree. Sure, such methods can breed contempt, but on small scales it can be a very potent method of control. The key is breaking the will of those that the powerful wish to have submit, while offering their own party something they can't get elsewhere. Again, though, I have to reiterate, we have barely seen Negan in the context of the show, so we really know nothing about him. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, it was Team Rick who drew first blood in this case. That may have the Saviors feeling justified in Negan's response to the situation. Again, it's all going to some down to the writing. If that doesn't work, then it doesn't matter what else happens.

[facestabber]

Violence and the threat of violence has always been used to keep people in line. I'm failing to see your point here. If history has shown us anything it's that the group in power will always resort to a violent method if their power is in danger, be that at home or abroad. The difference varies in degree. Sure, such methods can breed contempt, but on small scales it can be a very potent method of control. The key is breaking the will of those that the powerful wish to have submit, while offering their own party something they can't get elsewhere. Again, though, I have to reiterate, we have barely seen Negan in the context of the show, so we really know nothing about him. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, it was Team Rick who drew first blood in this case. That may have the Saviors feeling justified in Negan's response to the situation. Again, it's all going to some down to the writing. If that doesn't work, then it doesn't matter what else happens. North Korea comes to mind. That cocksucker is 3rd gen and brutal to his people. Makes me beyond bothered that no one has killed that little fucker. Regardless this is THE only show I care about. I roll my eyes at many moments but at the end of the day I love TWD. I hope Negan works out and the show gains more audience. But I'm still pissed about cliff hanger LOL

[bassman]