The Dead Rising NOT an Extinction Event

**Wooley** · 09-Mar-2009

Originally Posted by strayrider

Wow, an actual intelligent discussion on surviving the dead without people threatening to kill one another over the last can of Beanie Weenies.

I think that in the mid-west food will not be a problem. Unless the "plague" somehow effects wildlife, the population of game animals such as deer, squirrel, rabbit, ducks, geese, wild turkey, etc. will literally explode. Imagine a herd of 1000+ deer living the area around your enclave. You won't go hungry.

Consider also our current crops gone "wild". Fruits and vegetables would grow on their own in abundance (barring any weird hybrids), apple trees, etc. I think the mid-west would be the "Land of Plenty".

Of course, if you're in the desert ...

-stray-

Actually, you're right that food for a large chunk of the population might not be a problem should the dead walk. Any type of situation that dramiatically cuts the number of mouths to feed but doesn't cut the amount of food available will mean that unless you're stupid or unfortunate (like Andy in the gun store) you probably won't know starvation or even malnutrition. I say stupid because a tremendous percentage of our population probably doesn't know where it's food comes from (milk comes from cartons!), much less what do do with it if it isn't already packaged for them-even if they figure out that the grain silos contain grain, would they figure out a way to grind it into flour or corn meal and know how to make bread from it, for example.

But situations where the number of mouths to feed isn't reduced below the available food,, or the ability to get food to the survivors is impaired like a nuclear war or economic collapse or other possibilities means mass starvation/malnutrition is very possible, if not a given since the US no longer has the stores of grain we once had. The Just in Time/Wal-Mart way has extended even to our food production, and the US government never did stockpile food for civil defense like Russia, or other countries.

One thing to remember though is that the corn, wheat, soybeans, etc in the farm fields are hybrids, as are many of the plants in backyard gardens across the nation. They're engineered to give higher yields with less fertilizer, pesticides, etc, at the expense that their seeds are most likely sterile, and the ones that do germinate won't germinate well, I've read.

Mike70 brings up something I've often wondered about-would there be another Dark Age in the aftermath of a major cataclysm? Our educational system isn't what it used to be, and with much of the population dead, either in the event or the chaos that followed, and the surviving population forced back into subsistence farming and guard duty, it's not likely there'd be a premium placed on passing on the algebra, chemistry, etc needed to restart a modern society such as we're used to. And that's assuming the raw materials are there to do so in the first place. I think the best we could do is a 1920s level of existence with better medicine and communications.

**Mike70** · 09-Mar-2009

Originally Posted by Wooley

Mike70 brings up something I've often wondered about-would there be another Dark Age in the aftermath of a major cataclysm? Our educational system isn't what it used to be, and with much of the population dead, either in the event or the chaos that followed, and the surviving population forced back into subsistence farming and guard duty, it's not likely there'd be a premium placed on passing on the algebra, chemistry, etc needed to restart a modern society such as we're used to. And that's assuming the raw materials are there to do so in the first place. I think the best we could do is a 1920s level of existence with better medicine and communications.

yeah, i think there undoubtedly would be a dark age afterwards that would probably last for centuries, depending on how many people were left, how they were distributed, and how keen they were to rediscover technology.

something else that comes to mind is that the longer this dark age lasts, the harder it will become for people to communicate with others from different groups. literacy is what fixes a language in place and prevents large changes to it in a relatively short time. if contact was lost between groups for a long period, english would undoubtedly mutate into several different regional languages.

this is something else that miller examines at length in his book. after 600 years (when the book starts), english has shattered into dozens of mutually unintelligible languages. since the catholic church is only vestige of civilization left, latin becomes (once again just like in the dark ages after the fall of the western empire) the language the different groups of monks, priests or the few non-church types that know it use to communicate with one another. our form of standard english becomes like latin, in that nobody but people in the church can understand it and it is used for ceremonial purposes by the church.

anyone seriously into post-apocalyptic books should read "a canticle for leibowitz" pronto. it is broken into 3 parts: "fiat homo" (let there be man) 600 years after the war and during a dark age, "fiat lux" (let there be light) 1,200 years after and right as electricity, engineering, advanced math, and chemistry have been rediscovered, and "fiat voluntas tua" (let thy will be done) 1,800 years after when humans are actually more advanced than we are now and have colonies on some of the other planets and advanced spaceflight but are headed right back down the same old self destructive path.

**strayrider** · 10-Mar-2009

Originally Posted by Mike70

yeah, i think there undoubtedly would be a dark age afterwards that would probably last for centuries, depending on how many people were left, how they were distributed, and how keen they were to rediscover technology.

something else that comes to mind is that the longer this dark age lasts, the harder it will become for people to communicate with others from different groups. literacy is what fixes a language in place and prevents large changes to it in a relatively short time. if contact was lost between groups for a long period, english would undoubtedly mutate into several different regional languages.

this is something else that miller examines at length in his book. after 600 years (when the book starts), english has shattered into dozens of mutually unintelligible languages. since the catholic church is only vestige of civilization left, latin becomes (once again just like in the dark ages after the fall of the western empire) the language the different groups of monks, priests or the few non-church types that know it use to communicate with one another. our form of standard english becomes like latin, in that nobody but people in the church can understand it and it is used for ceremonial purposes by the church.

anyone seriously into post-apocalyptic books should read "a canticle for leibowitz" pronto. it is broken into 3 parts: "fiat homo" (let there be man) 600 years after the war and during a dark age, "fiat lux" (let there be light) 1,200 years after and right as electricity, engineering, advanced math, and chemistry have been rediscovered, and "fiat voluntas tua" (let thy will be done) 1,800 years after when humans are actually more advanced than we are now and have colonies on some of the other planets and advanced spaceflight but are headed right back down the same old self destructive path.

While I don't disagree that in certain areas there might be a dark age of sorts, but I also think all eras of human history might exist. High tech in some areas, medieval in others, tribal, etc.

Heck, in our own American west things might revert to the way they were a century, or so ago. That's where I'd want to hang out. Young Guns with zombies.

-stray-

**Wyldwraith** · 10-Mar-2009

I'm going to have to disagree with the notion of a full Dark Ages backslide,
Literacy isn't terribly hard to convey, and due to the vast majority of First World inhabitants being literate it would be a hard skill to lose. Now, as for the outgrowth sciences of the late 20th/early 21st century, those would be finished of course.

Some of the factors that made the Dark Ages so tenaciously resistant to being transcended were controlled by powerful cross-sections of the population with a vested interest in as little progress as possible occurring. In the absence of a power bloc resembling the marriage between the aristocracy and the Church I just don't see it happening again.

For one thing, too many of the "Basic Great Discoveries" of science are now common knowledge. Everyone in the first world understands the basics of germ theory, so we aren't likely to backslide into believing evil spirits of sickness are responsible for health problems for example.

For such a backslide to occur you would need more than simply a massive portion of the world's population to die. You'd need for that portion to completely encompass the first world, and for the rise of some sort of geo-political power with the same anti-progress interests the Church had back then.

If even a million college-educated individuals survived in the United States in the wake of a disaster that wiped out 85% of the nation's population, the furthest back we might fall is like the man said, the 1920s or so. Memory of the fundamentals would dramatically cut down the time until they could be re-implemented.

In other words, the big hold-up throughout history has always been ignorance, not productivity. If people understand how a thing may be accomplished, and desire to accomplish that thing then it becomes a simple matter of resource and manpower allocation.

Now, I'm NOT suggesting we would be back designing microchips by Year 10 after this major cataclysm, but I am suggesting that so long as the survivors were diligent in perpetuating literacy and recording the fundamental principles behind the great discoveries of science our climb back to where we were pre-Cataclysm would be orders of magnitude shorter than the amount of time it took us to progress to that point to begin with.

To get the kind of cultural and scientific desolation you're talking about you'd need for 95 of every 100 high school and college educated First-Worlders to bite the dust. Under those conditions I could see there being too few remaining to pass on information, and within a generation we'd be tribal again.

Then again, if you're going to take it THAT far we might not survive at all.

**sandrock74** · 11-Mar-2009

Originally Posted by Wyldwraith

I'm going to have to disagree with the notion of a full Dark Ages backslide,
Literacy isn't terribly hard to convey, and due to the vast majority of First World inhabitants being literate it would be a hard skill to lose. Now, as for the outgrowth sciences of the late 20th/early 21st century, those would be finished of course.

What?!? "the vast majority of First World inhabitants being literate" is something I have to disagree with. Maybe a sizeable minority of the population, but certainly not the vast majority!

**strayrider** · 11-Mar-2009

Originally Posted by sandrock74

What?!? "the vast majority of First World inhabitants being literate" is something I have to disagree with. Maybe a sizeable minority of the population, but certainly not the vast majority!

Dude, where do you get your information?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ed...tal-population

-stray-