TWD 3x08 "Made To Suffer" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

**babomb** · 03-Dec-2012

Pretty action packed!!! Quite a few new developments.

They threw Tyreese in their right off the bat. I thought they'd work up to it. Seems like they got some group additions just in time for what's to come.

Carl's still glued to that fucking hat. But Carl's the law now. He gets more capable by the episode. He was ready to add another name to his list of dead women.
I don't know about Axel!? He might be "that dude"? Fucking hilarious though the way he called Carol a Lesbian.
Something that bothers me though is that Michonne crashed head first through a wall of walker heads floating in water, and rolled around on a floor full of broken glass and walker water. Shouldn't she be infected now?

I had a feeling Shaq was gonna bite it tonight. They had to dump someone. Who better? Oscar's been replaced for the foreseeable future.

**rongravy** · 03-Dec-2012

Yeah, that was one helluva sweeet ride for the mid season finale.
Makes the wait for mid February that much more excruciating.
And Merle definitely looked a bit shell shocked at the end thurr.
Wow, just wow.
I'll even throw in a damn for good measure.
Can't wait for Talking Dead to start, and for Kirkman to hopefully spill a precious few tidbits.

**Wyldwraith** · 03-Dec-2012

It was rather inevitable,
Knew Daryl was gonna get caught the moment Rick had to have the "I need you!" conversation with him. The Governor selling Merle down the river despite having just lost quite a few of his lackeys was a bit surprising, but the big surprise of the night (at least for me) was how they decided to just RUIN Andrea. Having seen his Headquariums tm and his inability to let go of his Walker daughter, Andrea just blithely accepts his lame-ass justifications for it all.

Up until now, willful blindness could be blamed for Andrea's poor judgment this season...but after seeing the Governor's "Inner Sanctum"...I just can't fathom how ANYONE, forget someone who's been through the long slog of the Zombie Apocalypse, could fail to INSTANTLY see how profoundly damaged and (more importantly) TWISTED a man the Governor is. Now, having seen it's her old buddy Daryl (and by obvious extension it was Rick & Co. that Daryl was with) that the Governor is denouncing as "terrorists"...she has inarguable evidence the man just makes up stories to tell the Woodbury-sheep as he goes along.

I get that events have sort of rushed past her since the recent revelations she's become privy to due to Michonne's attack (And BTW, is anyone else a tad annoyed that despite the 5-7 Governor-flunkies Rick & Co. killed, + the one Maggie got with the Walker-bone, his forces don't seem to have shrunk at all??) but c'mon now....the people are shell-shocked, the Governor just created further instability by fingering his right-hand-man (hehe)...put a bullet in his head from the crowd Andrea and let this Mayberry-obscenity of a town die before the Governor can twist it into a weapon of war.

In any case, I've given up on Andrea as a character. If they (the writers) want to portray her as so flip-floppy, easily duped and utterly inconsistent with regard to the progression of events she's experienced, then Andrea is firmly in the obstacle-character category. I'm not applying an unreasonable standard of judgment here, am I? Wouldn't ANYONE who saw the Governor's private little sanctum, versus the charming country-gentry facade he wears most of the time deem him insane and extremely dangerous? Why would living through the zombie apocalypse alter a person's basic perception of something so SICK and barbaric as the Headquariums? Personally, I think a FIVE YEAR OLD who saw that, and connected it with the Governor would point a finger and say "You're a very, VERY BAD MAN!"

So what's with Andrea? I'm really, TRULY trying to understand what the writers intend for us to believe regarding the character's decision-making...but it just makes no sense to me. I go over it in my head, and find myself retreading the same basic ground.

Anyways, interesting mid-season finale. Will be quite interested in seeing how it plays out...though I can already guess on the general outline of some things to come.

Final note, found it quite interesting the shard of glass is buried deep enough in the ocular cavity that the medical authority didn't try to remove it from the Governor's head. Even if there wasn't any "Walker virus" on the Headquariums glass, the tank that shard came from had THREE CORPSE HEADS in it. One side of the glass stuck in the Governor's head must therefore be rife with bacteria and such. That deep in the ocular cavity and one would have to worry about even a normally very minor infection crossing the blood/brain barrier and thereby cause exceedingly dangerous inflammation due to the stifled immune response. What do you all think?

**Moon Knight** · 03-Dec-2012

My man Tyreese packing that hammer, yes!!!!

What a show, man! That fight between Michonne and The Governor was pretty cool, especially with the Walker heads involved lol

Sucks, Oscar was growing on me but I guess I should be used to anything happening on this show.

So much to discuss on this one. That ending, daaaaaamn!

**facestabber** · 03-Dec-2012

Gotta give props to Michonne. She fought and beat the Gov to victory and certain death........until the bumbling, stumbling moron that Andrea is showed up. For Hells sake Andrea do the fish tanks of heads not shed some light that maybe Michonne was right? After all her tough talk about marksmen ship she misses the prisoner. Andrea is pure fail. But I loved seeing Michonne fight to the death and come out on top.

Finally Merle meets Daryl. Well they had to do it big. Wouldn't have had much impact if Daryl walked up to the gate and asked to speak to his brother. So they gave us a tension filled reunion. Not as powerful as season 2's mid season break. I'm guessing they both somehow survive but Rick should know it was his job to cover Daryl's retreat. Otherwise very sound tactics.

Maggie and Glen welcome home. Didn't think they'd survive.

The stuff at the prison didn't really interest me. I used to like Hershel's contributions but the writers have given him a couple sentences now. Very smart of him to hide his disibility by keeping his leg out of view to the new arrivals. I did laugh at the reference to Carols hair but meh to the rest.

Tyrese seems like a likeable guy but the new group can be fodder to spare our group as far as I care.
Gonna be a long two months. And great effects and zombie kills again. Romero should be envious at the volume and quality of execution

**Moon Knight** · 03-Dec-2012

Originally Posted by Wyldwraith

It was rather inevitable,
Knew Daryl was gonna get caught the moment Rick had to have the "I need you!" conversation with him. The Governor selling Merle down the river despite having just lost quite a few of his lackeys was a bit surprising, but the big surprise of the night (at least for me) was how they decided to just RUIN Andrea. Having seen his Headquariums tm and his inability to let go of his Walker daughter, Andrea just blithely accepts his lame-ass justifications for it all.

Up until now, willful blindness could be blamed for Andrea's poor judgment this season...but after seeing the Governor's "Inner Sanctum"...I just can't fathom how ANYONE, forget someone who's been through the long slog of the Zombie Apocalypse, could fail to INSTANTLY see how profoundly damaged and (more importantly) TWISTED a man the Governor is. Now, having seen it's her old buddy Daryl (and by obvious extension it was Rick & Co. that Daryl was with) that the Governor is denouncing as "terrorists"...she has inarguable evidence the man just makes up stories to tell the Woodbury-sheep as he goes along.

I get that events have sort of rushed past her since the recent revelations she's become privy to due to Michonne's attack (And BTW, is anyone else a tad annoyed that despite the 5-7 Governor-flunkies Rick & Co. killed, + the one Maggie got with the Walker-bone, his forces don't seem to have shrunk at all??) but c'mon now....the people are shell-shocked, the Governor just created further instability by fingering his right-hand-man (hehe)...put a bullet in his head from the crowd Andrea and let this Mayberry-obscenity of a town die before the Governor can twist it into a weapon of war.

In any case, I've given up on Andrea as a character. If they (the writers) want to portray her as so flip-floppy, easily duped and utterly inconsistent with regard to the progression of events she's experienced, then Andrea is firmly in the obstacle-character category. I'm not applying an unreasonable standard of judgment here, am I? Wouldn't ANYONE who saw the Governor's private little sanctum, versus the charming country-gentry facade he wears most of the time deem him insane and extremely dangerous? Why would living through the zombie apocalypse alter a person's basic perception of something so SICK and barbaric as the Headquariums? Personally, I think a FIVE YEAR OLD who saw that, and connected it with the Governor would point a finger and say "You're a very, VERY BAD MAN!"

So what's with Andrea? I'm really, TRULY trying to understand what the writers intend for us to believe regarding the character's decision-making...but it just makes no sense to me. I go over it in my head, and find myself retreading the same basic ground.

Anyways, interesting mid-season finale. Will be quite interested in seeing how it plays out...though I can already guess on the general outline of some things to come.

Final note, found it quite interesting the shard of glass is buried deep enough in the ocular cavity that the medical authority didn't try to remove it from the Governor's head. Even if there wasn't any "Walker virus" on the Headquariums glass, the tank that shard came from had THREE CORPSE HEADS in it. One side of the glass stuck in the Governor's head must therefore be rife with bacteria and such. That deep in the ocular cavity and one would have to worry about even a normally very minor infection crossing the blood/brain barrier and thereby cause exceedingly dangerous inflammation due to the stifled immune response. What do you all think?

Good points.

It's really hard to root for Andrea anymore and I'm one that never had an issue with any of the female characters. All this shit is going down and she STILL doesn't have a clue. We'l see how they handle her in the second half after discovering Daryl is a prisoner.

And as far as the glass aquariums, It's a good arguement but one I really don't care for. If the show had to follow all these rules then we wouldn't get so many cool things and the groups would never get Walker blood on them and we know that's impossible.

**erisi236** · 03-Dec-2012

Sorry Oscar, we only have room for one black guy in this show, ha.

**ProfessorChaos** · 03-Dec-2012

glad to see rick and the gang rescue glenn and maggie. sucks that oscar had to go, but it was fairly obvious that someone would probably die in the skirmish. he seemed like a potentially good character, particularly after shooting andrew to save rick. and it was pretty satisfying to see maggie make sure he didn't come back by giving him a round in the head....though maybe by letting him reanimate it would have added to the chaos in woodbury.

tyrese finally showed up, but i don't know if they even addressed him in name...still, his character will surely help add some muscle and leadership, which the prison gang will surely need once the governor and his sheep decide to get some payback...and did i hear them call the bitten woman donna? then i guess that her husband would be allan, along with tyrese's daughter and her boyfriend. so the prison census jumped a bit, which is good, cuz i'm sure it's gonna drop soon due to an inevitable "round two" on their home court.

and yes, andrea continues to disappoint. how she could stay with the governor after all she saw in his little den of insanity is mind-boggling....dude must be hung like a mule or something. and she surely recognized daryl, so hopefully she redeems herself in the second half of the season by opening her dumb mouth and preventing whatever the hell is about to go down in the arena.

speaking of andrea, i've been pondering whether it's the writer's fault or the actress's regarding how horribly wrong they got her character. and i've came to the conclusion that it's both. her storyline is total crap, she's written to be naive beyond belief, the actress makes her seem like a total self-righteous bitch nearly every time she opens her mouth, and her mannerisms (i think JonoftheShread has alluded to this in other threads) just put off an aura of "OH NO YOU DIINT!!!" with all her little head swivels, bitchy stares, and neck-whipping.

as for the cliff-hanger, i can't see them killing daryl, nor can i see him agreeing to kill merle. i really hope andrea proves useful for once by speaking up to spare him, but i suppose we'll have to wait a couple of months to find out.

**AnxietyDilemma** · 03-Dec-2012

Originally Posted by Wyldwraith

It was rather inevitable,
The Governor selling Merle down the river despite having just lost quite a few of his lackeys was a bit surprising,

Well, Merle did lie about killing Michonne as he was ordered to do, who in turn came back to kill The Governor and ended up stabbing him through the eye socket with a shard of glass, and took out his "daughter". The look he gave a concerned Merle earlier on basically alluded to it, and you knew it would be addressed sooner or later.

As for Tyrese, yes, he was addressed by name early on in the episode.

**kidgloves** · 03-Dec-2012

I've just had a nerdgasm

**Wyldwraith** · 03-Dec-2012

Eh,
I can ignore stuff like people getting Walker blood on them externally, or even something story-driven like the EXTREMELY CRUDE amputation of Herschel's leg. For one basic reason...the "bad stuff" doesn't linger long-term. Walker blood gets washed off, Herschel's leg was eight kinds of doctored/disinfected once Carl came back with medical supplies no doubt....but a several inch shard of glass buried so keep that even with the eye punctured you can clearly see the roundness of the ocular cavity (meaning its bisected the retina and the point is AT BEST resting against a) The Optic Nerve and b) A whole bunch of blood vessels) that's just left in his skull...that is easily the most infection-rife (speaking conventionally here, not zombie virus stuff) thing they've done to a living character.)

Herschel's leg-stump would actually be much more hygienic than the Governor's eye socket for a few reasons structurally simple enough it wouldn't be at all hard to touch on it story-wise. You sever a major blood vessel in an extremity in a (relatively) clean fashion and said blood vessel (in Herschel's case the Femoral Artery) tends to snap back deeper within the extremity and do a fair job on its own before you even begin applying medical treatment of limiting/preventing blood loss. Add that to the major initial blood loss of the amputation being something of a blessing in disguise by purging large a large % of any pathogens along with the blood.

My problem with that eye socket is really simple. One, the foreign object is STILL IN THERE. Two, it's not really an area of the body that can afford ANY inflammation, AT ALL from the tiniest most minor, normally take 2 Tylenol and you've suppressed it infection. Inflammation could move the point of the glass shard, could cause a blood clot from sequestered blood...it's just instinctive...a foreign object left in a Skull Hole is Not A Good Thing.

Besides, it would make for interesting story if the Governor who, already insane, is battling a fever/infection and all the fun symptoms that can go along with that and all while trying to organize and lead a military campaign Vs. the prison. That, and it would give him a touch of basic humanity which would only make him seem all the more repellant by contrast if he can fall ill and rant and rave in a fever about his dead loved ones. Just my thoughts on the matter. As always, yours may vary.

**facestabber** · 03-Dec-2012

Wylde I think you just have to look at it as a scene to elicit a wow factor from viewers. Everyone probably gasped when it happened. But I see where you are coming from for sure.

That injury in our world is bad enough but in a zombie apoc would be hard to recover. I was and still am distracted at the epic ness of that fight. That was just badass. Michonne can frustrate me but she has now won me over as a fan.

**JonOfTheShred** · 03-Dec-2012

- Episode opening with Tyrese = win
- I noticed the lady bitten was named Donna as well.

- Axel as comic relief? Yea, I can see that. Axel hitting on Beth perv-style? Kinda creepy. I could see him and Carol actually going 20 toes heels to Jesus. But I don't want him taking the role Tomas in the comics had. There simply isn't enough characters to keep running through anymore for that kind of shit.
- They're not gonna kill Daryl....but they better not. If they have a showdown fist fight in the warehouse between him and his brother, it'll be kind of lame, IMO. Way too contrived "big action movie" to throw that in there.
- The second we saw Tyrese on-screen, it was safe to assume Oscars time was up. We all knew he was a redshirt, although in all fairness, everyone said that about T-Dog and he had 3 full seasons. I still think T-Dog was originally supposed to evolve into Tyrese, but the fan backlash stopped that from happening.
- Glad Glenn and Maggie made it out alive.

Originally Posted by Wyldwraith

Besides, it would make for interesting story if the Governor who, already insane, is battling a fever/infection and all the fun symptoms that can go along with that and all while trying to organize and lead a military campaign Vs. the prison. That, and it would give him a touch of basic humanity which would only make him seem all the more repellant by contrast if he can fall ill and rant and rave in a fever about his dead loved ones. Just my thoughts on the matter. As always, yours may vary.

That's a brilliant idea, actually. An infection driving the governor further into insanity, giving him hallucinations, all kinds of fucked up shit. (And of course, Andrea will be seeing it all happen with a stupid condescending smirk on her face, still oblivious she's getting pounded by Adolf Hitler of the zombie apocalypse.

)

**babomb** · 03-Dec-2012

Originally Posted by Moon Knight

Good points.

It's really hard to root for Andrea anymore and I'm one that never had an issue with any of the female characters. All this shit is going down and she STILL doesn't have a clue. We'l see how they handle her in the second half after discovering Daryl is a prisoner.

And as far as the glass aquariums, It's a good arguement but one I really don't care for. If the show had to follow all these rules then we wouldn't get so many cool things and the groups would never get Walker blood on them and we know that's impossible.

I for one would like to see them actively try to prevent themselves from becoming covered in walker blood. You know it's still gonna happen despite their best efforts. But having them keep covered in long sleeves, maybe some handkerchiefs over the mouth, some gloves, would go a long way as far as keeping it realistic. I mean, that's what I'd be doing in that situation. And that's what they did in the start of season 1, when Rick got out of the tank and T-Dog and the spanish dude were covered in Tyvek suits and helmets and gloves to take out a few measely walkers. That's just realistic. And i wish that would've been continued.
It's not a major deal to me, I still love the show. But look at how as a society we view infectious outbreak already. Maintaining a certain level of protection from it is just sound logic, even after the apocalypse. I just don't want to get to a point in this show where we abandon all logic and disbelief in favor of WOW moments and death scenes. Forgetting what's actually happening and the reality of the situation the characters are in.