Land Gets Worse

[JDFP]

I believe he's talking about the one that just takes out BD. Which would ruin the film, imo. Really? I'd say with the deletion of Big Daddy "Land" could almost be a decent film. A couple of full nudity scenes with Asia Argento wouldn't have hurt either... ahem... j.p.

[bassman]

Really? I'd say with the deletion of Big Daddy "Land" could almost be a decent film. Regardless of the quality of the character, if you take him out the plot would make absolutely no sense....

[DjfunkmasterG]

I bought the Blu-ray and couldn't bring myself to sit through it again. Epic fail. Should have bought it on HD DVD, it would have only cost you a $1.00 ad gotten the same playback rate as the BR.... NONE!

[darth los]

Well, Things I don't enjoy: The preachy message-laden plotline & plot devices. This is a catchall group which includes everything from Cholo's currency-based demand, to every sight of Big Daddy and his Rocky-like frustrated moaning, and the lightspeed-fast education of the other zombies. Something as simple as "Zombies don't actually work in groups. They just daisy-chain react to the actions of the first ghoul seeing something interesting" was fucked up. The infamous "River Crossing Scene" is a perfect example of the 100% WRONG WAY to portray zombie-horde activities. The thing that makes the concept frightening is the realization that, like undead dominoes falling to strike the next domino is the realization that, despite the writhing mass of pallid rotting flesh, nothing more complex than one zombie sighting potential food and its reaction to/pursuit of that food serving to germinate a horde to pursue the hapless survivors is going on. Ie: The deadly threat being almost mindless is the very putrid SOUL of the zombie horde. Big Daddy's Sherman-esque march to "burn" the Green blows that all to shit, and simply makes it about retarded humanoids seeking revenge against their neighbors. We often discuss why it is that the new trilogy is subpar yet can't quite put our finger on it. However, it is these 2 things that, if you ask most members, come up the most often. Very well articulated.

[Legion2213]

Most of Wyldwraith's posts are well articulated actually. They are always worth a reading.

[darth los]

Imo, the social commentary has always been there. But what we have in the most recent 3 films are political messages, there's a difference. that's part of it. Social commentaries are universal truths while political messages are what one man or faction feels about a certain issue and are agenda driven. That's one thing. Second, i would even be fine with that if it wasn't for the whole zombie evolution thing. It's a cancer to the series that needs to be cut out.

[Legion2213]

Yeah, I prefer my zombies to be "pure motorized instinct". The odd zombie tooling around with an object out of memory is fine, so long as he totally drops the object the second some fresh meat appears on the scene. Once they start "thinking" they are no longer zombies IMO.

[darth los]

Yeah, I prefer my zombies to be "pure motorized instinct". The odd zombie tooling around with an object out of memory is fine, so long as he totally drops the object the second some fresh meat appears on the scene. Once they start "thinking" they are no longer zombies IMO. Exactlly. They are no longer what we grew up loving. What's even worse, and this is also what's killing the series, they are no longer scary.

[Trin]

I'm going to try to keep this short. *laughs* Blanket disclaimer. All opinion. You've been warned. First, I have never bought into the argument that Land will be more accepted as it ages simply because Day did. The basis of the intial criticism between the two movies is very different. Initial criticisms of Day generally center around comparisons to Dawn. Criticisms of Land are very much about failings in Land. However, I think my opinion of Land *has* improved some over time. Most of that is ignoring the parts of it I hate. Some of it is having Diary and Survival to lower the bar. But nonetheless, it is improvement. Land has the best opening 15 minutes of any of the Dead movies for me. I just love it all. The setup of the scavengers. The Riley/Cholo conflict. The kid shooting himself outside the liquor store. Charlie. Dead Reckoning. The fireworks. The whole damned thing was so kick ass. It was all the stand up and cheer moments of Dawn on steroids. On the bad side I still find the plot laced with holes. I still cannot stand that the zombies are no longer monsters. I cringe everytime I see that the prison-like claustrophic city is actually surrounded by miles of empty streets and buildings and NO ZOMBIES. Big Daddy did not ruin it for me. Nor did the concept of intelligent, learning zombies. I'm okay with that. I hate the way it was done, of course. None of that has changed over time for me. I do have some newer gripes. My most recent gripe is that the city that apparently survived "since it was a real city" cannot handle a couple hundred stenches who appear at the gates. The scene where the two doofuses are out in the middle of nowhere with their spotlight, followed by the fences getting downed by BD and about 30 zombies, is absolutely unwatchable. This is a city that has a 24/7 armed military prescence, right? So the guys at the motor pool didn't have walkie-talkies? No way to sound the alarm? This is the city that somehow stayed alive when the HALF A MILLION residents of the area became zombies??? The social commentary doesn't bother me nearly as much as it used to. Compared to Diary it's like a feather tickle compared to a sledgehammer. Heck, I can watch Land and really not even notice it anymore. It mainly comes out as plot holes or seemingly stupid characters. That actually seems refreshing compared to Diary telling me over and f'in over what I'm supposed to be learning as I watch it. Another thing I can appreciate about Land in retrospect (thank you f'in Survival)... they never tried to feed the zombies. Yes, there was still a small undercurrent of "let's all live together in peace and harmony" bs, but it wasn't a major theme of the movie. My main gripe of Land when it came out, and my continuing gripe of Land... it is not the epic ending of the series that it could've been. That it EASILY could've been. With no extra money. No huge changes.

[SRP76]

So Trin, did you notice the "musical cue" for Big Daddy "knowledge" I was talking about?

[Trin]

So Trin, did you notice the "musical cue" for Big Daddy "knowledge" I was talking about? I was basing my post off of my most recent re-watch of Land, which was probably 2 months ago. So, no, but I'm looking very forward to it.

[darth los]

Unfortynately this thread is going to make all of s have to watch it again. When i do bring myself to watch it i keep searching for something that will redeem the film for me but i have as of yet been able to find it.

[Wyldwraith]

First, Want to thank Darth @ Legion. It's always nice to be appreciated, especially when you're in a position where it's more difficult to share your feelings and thoughts about what interests you. Thank, means a lot As far as things which redeem Land....: There's a lot of conceptual goodness in the movie. Things that are perfect outgrowths of human behavior/tactics in a zombie world. Ie: Use of "Sky Flowers"/Fireworks to distract the ghouls during supply raids. Has the feel of people adapting to the circumstances they find themselves in, and exploiting the inherent weakness of a known quantity (the zombies.) The physical overview of the Green itself. The daytime border scenes give it a very Planned-Fortress meets Adapted Cityscape feel. The scene where the guards are watching the lone zombie hit the electric fence as they look out over the blocked-off roads that used to lead into the city is great. Conversely, the scene where Butcher Zombie manages to breach one of these street-barricades in 10-12 blows of an improvised weapon makes me cringe and go "How did this city survive the Dawn '04-type waves of undead flesh at the height of the undead plague if ONE zombie can breach the wall using ANYTHING?" I agree with Trin about the first fifteen minutes of the movie, but even at that early stage I foresaw lameness in the form of Cholo, his outlook and activities. Cholo is 33% of the Unholy Trinity of Awful Characters that conspired to drag Land down. (BD and Dennis Hopper's character being the other two). I absolutely CANNOT STAND Riley's whole "They're just looking for a home" bullshit explanation for not blowing the zombies + Big Daddy straight to Hell. ESPECIALLY after his over the top anguish when he sees the zombies gorging on humans inside the Green's borders before blasting them and finding out most of the humans survived. On the upside, I actually liked the scene with the idiot pair, the spotlight and finding themselves surrounded by zombies. Same goes for the guy left behind by Riley and Co. in the warehouse-type building. He deserved ugly excruciating death for a) smoking and b) WEARING HEADPHONES out in zombie territory. Both scenes were reasonably cool, and a bit of slasher-esque fun. The biggest problem Land suffers from in the end is its Plot Overview. Even when you strip out all annoying details and offensively bad characters, the plot summary STILL has holes. Ie: "Last human-controlled city survives the zombie apocalypse for years, but is brought down in the end by one zombie leader as smart as your average five year old and a couple hundred cronies who seem more interested in follow-the-leader and monkey see-monkey do than they are in warm human flesh." To me, THAT is what keeps Land from improving with age. It isn't just the aggravating elements mid-film. The "Zombie Breach Moment, ala Night/Dawn/Day" is an irritating plothole instead of being a chilling example of undead relentlessness. Trin also made an excellent point about Diary and Survival lowering the bar and making Land look better in comparison. It's not that it actually IMPROVES, it's just that the problems with Diary in particular are so horrifically bad, coming on Land's heels as it does, that Land's problems look more forgivable. Diary and Survival feel so labored that if one had never seen the Savini remake of Night, Original Dawn and Day, it could and probably WOULD seem reasonable that making a GOOD large-scale zombie movie is next-to-impossible. Thus the creation of the forgivable in Land. The real tragedy of Land IMO is that you can see the occasional glimpse of the Epic Global Zombie Apocalypse Movie we all hunger for. In that respect, Diary and Survival are clean, because at least they have no potential to be anything but bad. God, Diary managed to combine the two things I hate most in movies. Blair Witchy reality-TV-esque style and Triple-Z-grade movie quality. The best thing about Land is that those too-infrequent glimpses prove conclusively that if he dug deep, Romero is still capable of another epic Dead film. Just my .02, your mileage may vary.

[shootemindehead]

I've never minded and still don't mind 'land of the Dead'. I think it's a fitting entry into the series. I don't count 'Diary/Survival of the Dead' as anything but complete fuck up's. They're not even on the radar anymore. Sure there are things in 'Land of the Dead' that annoy me. The "Big Daddy" character is OK in general. I don't mind the "zombies are learning" angle, but only if it's confined. In other words, 1 zombie in a very large multiple. "Big Daddy" however, learns too much too quickly and the biggest issue is that he can teach. That's what drives me up the wall about him. Also, Eugene Clark is just not up to the job in the same way that Howard Sherman was. 'Day of the Dead' handled the "learning" issue very well, I think. You get the feeling that Logan had tried to teach a number of zombies before he got to "Bub". "Bub" responded so well, Logan let him live. Which makes one think how many others did he have to destroy? "Big Daddy", on the other hand, can surround himself with a bunch of pupils all ready and willing to follow his orders and "learn" from him. These "educated" zombies should be few and far between. A phenomenon within a phenomenon if you will. 'Land of the Dead' gives the impression, though, that it's sort of commonplace if the right triggers are present. It's just not a good move on Romero's part. I didn't find the money angle or Cholo's character too irritating though and was willing to accept him and his motives, even if they were somewhat silly. Kauffman was a little grating, because it's Dennis Hopper. Not, that I don't like Hopper, he just doesn't belong in a zombie film. His inclusion just sort of takes me out of the universe too easily. The stupid parts of the film annoy me too. The death of the "Mouse" character is just ridiculous. I simply cannot imagine anyone, ANYONE, out in no-man's land choosing to stick on a walkman and ignoring the obvious threat that surrounds him. Although Romero has prior form for including stupid scenes in his films, such as that appalling pie-fight and the "test your blood pressure" scene in 'Dawn of the Dead'. However, the biggest bugbears for me personally, was the use of modern technology and weaponry in 'Land of the Dead'. Why Romero chose to use flat screen TV's, laptops with perimeter readouts and machine guns from the 90's/00's is beyond me. Perhaps locating M-16's was difficult in Canada? I don't know. But, it takes 'Land of the Dead' out of the original series, when a few tweaks here and there would have made it fit better. The "Dead Reckoning" vehicle itself is somewhat silly too. Besides being way too computerised to fit properly into the original series cannon, why would anyone bother to build such a toy when there would be thousands of unused tanks and aromured cars laying around? At the end of the day, it was probably simply impossible for Romero to deliver the goods really. The anticipation of the next Dead film in the series was always going to outweigh the experience itself. 'Land of the Dead' should really have been made in the late 80's / early 90's, followed by perhaps a couple of more films in the series in that decade, which could have drawn the original series to a close. As it stands, the film is separated by too much time to really fit into the universe Romero originally created. I think he has since realised this and chose to "re-boot" his zombie world into a more modern timeframe. Unfortunately, the results of that move have been an absolute disaster of epic proportions. For me Romero's zombie exploits are over. I cannot see him finding his way back onto the "right path", even though the way is certainly open. I just hope and pray that 'The Walking Dead' TV series can take the torch and run with it successfully, although the danger is there for someone to eventually fuck that up as well.

[Trin]

Two back to back great sets of thoughts!! @Wyld - agree on conceptual goodness, people adapting, physical overview of the Green, how can one zombie breach the defenses, Riley's parting words disagree - cholo being bad, idiot pair at spotlight, mouse being a cool death, A few specific points... The biggest problem Land suffers from in the end is its Plot Overview. Even when you strip out all annoying details and offensively bad characters, the plot summary STILL has holes. To me, THAT is what keeps Land from improving with age. It isn't just the aggravating elements mid-film. The "Zombie Breach Moment, ala Night/Dawn/Day" is an irritating plothole instead of being a chilling example of undead relentlessness. This is where the Plot and the Message collide on the tracks like an enormous train wreck. Where you and I see plot holes others see Message and social commentary. Where we see a military that cannot defend a city against your 5 year old intellect zombie, others see the Message that the city has been ignoring the problem and is now lax and ill-prepared. Where you and I might see Cholo doing a big ol WTF over money, others see Cholo as bowing to the Message of Humanity as Greedy over survivalistic. It's just sad that GAR has forgotten how to integrate message with plausibility to be that "reflection of the times" that made his other movies great. The real tragedy of Land IMO is that you can see the occasional glimpse of the Epic Global Zombie Apocalypse Movie we all hunger for. The best thing about Land is that those too-infrequent glimpses prove conclusively that if he dug deep, Romero is still capable of another epic Dead film. Yes, yes, and more YES!! @shootme - couldn't agree more on the Dead Reckoning technology angle. Who builds GPS and remote controls into an A-Team hacked together metal behemoth? Disagree on Hopper. I wasn't overly taken with Kaufman, but thought he did well acting it. To anyone still thinking Land will become a classic with age? How much more time do you need?