A new sub genre (because some "zombie" films have no actual zombies)

[Jason Edwards]

I also realize this is not unlike comparing apples and oranges. But since I ordered an orange juice, it would bother me if I got apple juice instead. And when you REALLY get down to it, fully functional (I'm using the term loosely) zombies are an impossibility, so yes, arguing over make believe things would be fundamentally silly, but to be hung up on reality totally defeats the purpose of these forums as well. I'm coming from three angles here: 1)The Romero concept of zombies is how I was introduced to zombies to begin with (it probably wasn't an actual Romero movie that I saw, it was probably some other knock off movie), so my understanding of the concept of a zombie is an undead person eating the flesh of the living. There are also plenty examples of zombies who don't necessarily eat anybody, but they're still depicted as DEAD. 2)I'm not out to disrespect Danny Boyle or fans of the 28 Days series, and I hope no one takes this debate as such. 3)I'll admit to being anal-retentive about the whole matter, but honestly, when you enter nerd territory like Star Wars or zombies, it's a given you'll encounter fanatical people. I find stories of society's collapse fascinating as the rest of you, I am entertained by a farmhouse full of people freaking out over monsters, and the concept of the enemy is us is interesting to me as well. Also, I think that monsters that still resemble us are a lot more frightening than, say The Blob or Cthulu. So, yeah, we're all here for the same reason. All I'm saying is it's not a duck just because it walks and talks like one. It's almost like stereotyping in a way. But Mike Tyson (insert mindless automaton comparison here) biting the ear off an opponent does not make him a zombie any more than Robert Carlyle was a zombie in 28 Weeks Later. -- -------- Post added at 01:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ---------- A person could also say The Bible was the original zombie fan fic, but you can imagine the butthurt over that one as well, lol

[EvilNed]

Could I not also apply the zombie genre criteria to Star Trek: First Contact as well? Oh, let me add one more criteria I thought would be really, really obvious... HORROR. EDIT: Also, I'm not gonna bother replying to the Terminator or Matrix comparisons. If you think they have as much incommon with Day of the Dead as 28 Days Later does, then I see no point in continuing this discussion, because we're speaking two different languages.

[AcesandEights]

So you guys don't think being picayune about people co-opting a term that you are being zealous about the definition of, that was itself already co-opted isn't a bit...hypocritical? Don't know how else to approach this topic, but that's how it seems to me. Simple as.

[Andy]

Oh, let me add one more criteria I thought would be really, really obvious... HORROR. EDIT: Also, I'm not gonna bother replying to the Terminator or Matrix comparisons. If you think they have as much incommon with Day of the Dead as 28 Days Later does, then I see no point in continuing this discussion, because we're speaking two different languages. The zombie genre uses some of the following conventions: - Apocalypse - Societal collapse - Mindless automatons are taking over / have taken over the world - Friends being "infected" and turning into the enemy against their will - Gore, people being torn apart - Political or religious allegories or metaphors - Mankind's worst enemy is mankind itself - Often (but not always) a sad ending with little to no hope. - A Siege-type scenario and/or - People on the run from said threat - Apocalypse - Terminator, skynets nuclear war. Matrix, War with the machines that drove mankind underground. - Societal collapse - Terminator and Matrix both show how society is destroyed. - Mindless automatons are taking over / have taken over the world - Both Terminator and Matrix show Mindless machines taking over the world. - Friends being "infected" and turning into the enemy against their will - Terminator - The T1000 mimics people to get close to its enemy against their will, in T3 Arnolds terminator is infected by the TX and tries to kill john connor, again against his will. In the Matrix Reloaded, Smith takes over banes body and uses it to hunt Neo in the real world, against his will. - Gore, people being torn apart - Theres so many examples in the terminator, in the first movie arnold rips a guys heart out shortly after arriving in the 80's. In the Matrix revolutions, when the machines breach zion, Hundreds of people are shredded and ripped limb from limb by the sentinels. - Political or religious allegories or metaphors - I Guess the messages from the Terminator are mixed, beware the enemy you cant see, be wary of technology.. Countless references to judgement day. Again, the Political and religious metaphors in the Matrix are so numerous and obvious im not gonna list them, if you have any of the films, you know them. Basically neo is supposed to be jesus - Mankind's worst enemy is mankind itself - Mankind builds skynet in the terminator and the initial machines of the matrix, and mankind starts the war with the machines. - Often (but not always) a sad ending with little to no hope. - This one i will need to relent a little, The Terminators ending is kind of bleak, no hope, cant change the future kind story.. The Matrix has a more positive ending. - A Siege-type scenario - Theres police seiges in all 3 terminator movies and salvation is set in a warzone and in the Matrix Revolutions you have the siege on Zion. - People on the run from said threat - In both terminator and the matrix, People hide underground from the machines. Oh and as for the horror (which you only added later ) The Original Terminator movie was billed as a Sci Fi/Horror Movie. See how by your very own words, by your own defination that you wrote out, not me, Both The Terminator and The Matrix movies are zombie films. Yeah ive taken your points literally and im being stubborn but ive just proved how lame your argument is. A Key point that you missed is that zombies are dead people reanimated, which rules out the Terminator, the Matrix and 28 days later. Now why dont you answer my question? 28 days later infected are also NEVER referred to as zombies in the movie itself, the creators of 28 days have gone as far to say in interviews that they never intended to make a zombie movie and they dont see their movie as a zombie movie and if the creators are saying its not, it dosnt fit with our rules of what we expect a zombie to be and it wasnt ever intended to.. then why are you arguing that we should change our defination to make it fit?

[EvilNed]

I was gonna respond by text but screw it, here ya go. I rephrased some of the conventions and removed some of broad ones, such a gore, people on the run from said threat, etc. etc.

[Sammich]

The zombie genre uses some of the following conventions: - Apocalypse - Societal collapse - Mindless automatons are taking over / have taken over the world - Friends being "infected" and turning into the enemy against their will - Gore, people being torn apart - Political or religious allegories or metaphors - Mankind's worst enemy is mankind itself - Often (but not always) a sad ending with little to no hope. - A Siege-type scenario and/or - People on the run from said threat Sounds like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

[Andy]

I was gonna respond by text but screw it, here ya go. I rephrased some of the conventions and removed some of broad ones, such a gore, people on the run from said threat, etc. etc. Impressive chart, honestly But what your post reads to me is that you really dont have a comeback to any of my points, so you have to change your original criteria to fit a new argument, ignore parts of the movies (all of them) that contradict your argument, completely miss my keypoint again and fail to answer my question, again. I think ive won this one

[Jason Edwards]

That is a very concise, organized table. Although, I'm unsure whether to interpret it as the table proves my point, or if by creating this table means you agree with us after all. Also, if you're not "gonna bother replying to the Terminator or Matrix comparisons", then why the effort for the chart? Aces, it is kinda hypocritical, but to say that none of us use the term correctly would also make you using the term zombie hypocritical as well. "Zombie" has always been kind of a blanket term, but when the vernacular "zombie" is used, a person almost always thinks of a living dead person, and it is usually understood that a zombie is an undead flesh eater. It's easier to just say zombie than immediately after saying zombie, you have to explain which sense of the word you're talking about. This forum is about the living dead, it's not the Homepage of the Crazed PCP User, it's not Homepage of the Ancient Voodoo Ritual, it's not the Homepage of the Mind Controlled Slaves, it's not the Homepage of Cranberries Famous Song. I'm not saying we shouldn't be allowed to talk about other things that are not zombies, but I'm saying we're all here hammering away on keyboards and burning electricity because we love flesh eating DEAD PEOPLE. I think to use the rebuttal of "you say potato, I say potahto" makes the topic stray from it's original purpose. I'm not making this an issue of semantics, but, bottom line, I am saying i don't agree with what i feel is a mis-used label.

[EvilNed]

But what your post reads to me is that you really dont have a comeback to any of my points, so you have to change your original criteria to fit a new argument, ignore parts of the movies (all of them) that contradict your argument, completely miss my keypoint again and fail to answer my question, again.p The reason I changed the criteria was because I realized some of them were a little vague and some of them were very broad. Of course things like gore apply to many films, so I removed it. I'm not "ignoring" anything, I'm simply narrowing the filters. There's nothing wrong with that. The original post wasn't that thought out, I wasn't expecting people to apply other films to those criteria, and thus just wrote down what came to mind. When put to paper, they were a little vague. I etched them out better. This is the result. I didn't realize there was any "winning" to do here. This is simply four films compared to each other. This is my way of answering your points. But since your points were made in response to something I've already admitted being vague and broad criteria, you were not wrong. Based on this vague and broad criteria, you were right. I don't see the point in answering them. EDIT: Uhm, also I guess I owe you an answer to your "the creators said 28 days later isn't a zombie flick, so there you go!"-argument: - In Night of the Living Dead, the ghouls are never referred to as zombies. Thus it's as much of a zombieflick as 28 days later (by that logic). - In truth, I don't really care what the creators say about their own flick. They surely had an intention. But it's really my viewing of it that matters, much in the same way I decide if a film is good or bad. I don't let a critic decide for me.

[Jason Edwards]

True, the weird people roaming the countryside in NOTLD were never referred to as zombies, BUT they were reanimated dead. Which ended up as zombies. Yup.

[EvilNed]

Yeah, I know. I agree with you. They're zombies. It's a silly argument to begin with. But Andy wanted an answer, so there it is.

[AcesandEights]

Jason, it seems like the crux of your argument is that you have an opinion that matters more than other peoples. You're right. It matters more to you, but why should it bother you what others classify as zombies, as the term and concept has been evolving for the last several decades?

[Andy]

No its not a matter of opinion, you name me ONE zombie movie where the zombies are alive... thats what me and jason are both shouting but you guys are continually missing, its the single key defining fact of popular zombie mythology.. in books, TV series's, comics, movies, games.. Shamblers or runners, silent or loud, weak or strong.. zombies ARE the reanimated dead. 28 days infected are ALIVE, its a film about a virus, they get hurt, they starve to death, they can potentially be cured. 28 days was not made to be a zombie movie, we are not saying its a bad movie, i like 28 days. its a good horror movie, but its a NOT a zombie movie. Your changing the rules of a genre so that you can incorporate a film that has some vague similarities and that is wrong, thats what i was trying to demonstrate with the whole terminator/matrix thing.. when you start bending the rules of your genre you can incorporate ANY movie into it. Oh titanic isnt a action film.. but if i look at this way.. wrong.

[AcesandEights]

But you guys already did all that when you moved the goal posts to include flesh eating non-voodoo undead and co-opted the term. You don't understand how that might seem a fallacy or hypocritical to me?

[Neil]

Everyone knows that it's not a zombie unless it can crawl on the ceiling... How did that scene ever even reach paper, yet alone film?