Defending Dawn O4

[bassman]

My mistake.

[Ragnarr]

I realize that many of you in these forums do not like Dawn04 for many reasons or just for Snyder in particular. But you'd have to agree the opening scenes of Dawn04 were pretty suspenseful, no? When the blonde chick climbs out the bathroom window and sees her neighborhood in chaos, that wild ride from her house to the main highway, and the aerial shot of the speeding dude who (ahem) missed his turn and pulls into the gas station (boom); I was hooked into the movie at that point. I'm wondering if some of you give the movie your thumbs down solely out of loyalty to Romero more than any perceived problem with Snyder. The way my brain's wired, I always tend to look at what's good with something more than what's bad with it, unless of course the movie is SO overpoweringly bad that not even I can find something good to say about it. The movie would have to be quite a stinker for that to happen!

[Trin]

I realize that many of you in these forums do not like Dawn04 for many reasons or just for Snyder in particular. But you'd have to agree the opening scenes of Dawn04 were pretty suspenseful, no? When the blonde chick climbs out the bathroom window and sees her neighborhood in chaos, that wild ride from her house to the main highway, and the aerial shot of the speeding dude who (ahem) missed his turn and pulls into the gas station (boom); I was hooked into the movie at that point. I thought the openeing scene of Dawn '04 were pretty well done. Very engaging. I was hooked too. I'm wondering if some of you give the movie your thumbs down solely out of loyalty to Romero more than any perceived problem with Snyder. I don't think that's particularly rampant around here. Especially considering how many Romero fans criticize Romero's own work. It'd be hard to imagine those same fans only hating Snyder's work because it's not Romero.

[bd2999]

Most the points have been covered but the beginning of the movie was good. I think the rest of the movie was a pretty good flick as well, but it was never scary. The story itself has some major problems with it, some of the characters we are supposed to like have more to dislike than to like and their motivations at times do not make a ton of sense. There are alot of characters that are there for no reason as well. So I do not think it is a bad movie but it is not close to being worthy of the name honestly. I think it would be a better flick minus that. I do not hate the running zombie like many do. But to think of it as a modernization is not correct. Making something faster does make it scarier in the way that it will down you quick and it is over but all subtility is lost. As many have said the whole they are moving slow and you cannot stop it is lost. Not to mention it actually makes the dead the villan more directly. They are to a point in Romero's movies but the main theme is that if people could work together they could deal even with this.That is lost and the inevitability of the situation when death is turned against you. It is more of a video game at that point. I still think the movie is good but that is one issue I have in general. I saw someone use Dracula as a modernization. The problem with him as an example is the classic Lugosi Dracula, although I love him, is not that accurate to the books. The more powerful Dracula is. Vampires at times have suffered more than zombies as they get modernized in ways that do not make sense. And also defeats the purpose.

[Ragnarr]

It's like Barbara said at one point during Night90 when looking at the gathering zombies outside the house; "They're so slow! We can just walk right by them!" Hmph! Try that if they were Snyder's brand of zombies! CHOMP! I don't know about the rest of you, but the fast zombies are way way way more of a threat than the shuffling slow kind IMO.

[blind2d]

But less of a threat psychologically. (are runners) You look at them, you're scared for a second, you're dead. With shamblers, you have time to think. You have time to be horrified. You have time to blow your brains out from the madness and futility of it all. Nothing damaging to the brain with these velociraptor corpses but their teeth. I was playing Left 4 Dead 2 at my friend's house yesterday, and although yeah they're all runners pretty much, it's still really a great game. Because you can see piles of dead bodies in hallways and think 'Damn... these were people...' I don't think Snyder's film had any kind of real moment like that. And for that to me, it's a very poor example of what the zombie genre has to offer the world.

[Ragnarr]

@blind2d: Point taken. I didn't think about the psych factor of seeing piles of dead (dead) bodies, or the long thought of one's eventual demise at the hands of ghouls. Maybe the faster zombies are a kinder death afterall.

[Trin]

There is a crucial point in here. With shamblers anyone knows you ought to be able to survive. Mankind should not fall to such a threat. Part of the horror is seeing man's failure to rise to the challenge. And seeing the people around you devolve into an "every man for himself" mentality. It evokes a lot more emotion than just fear - futility, frustration, anger, hatred, etc. This is why the conflict in GAR's movies is predominantly man vs. man, not man vs. zombie. With running zombies you don't have that. The odds are so stacked against you that survival for any time span is a huge victory. The survivors can look around and feel good that they are alive at all. They are not berating themselves and the human race for failure. It makes the situation and the resulting emotion single-dimensional.

[Ragnarr]

There is a crucial point in here. With shamblers anyone knows you ought to be able to survive. Mankind should not fall to such a threat. Part of the horror is seeing man's failure to rise to the challenge. And seeing the people around you devolve into an "every man for himself" mentality. It evokes a lot more emotion than just fear - futility, frustration, anger, hatred, etc. This is why the conflict in GAR's movies is predominantly man vs. man, not man vs. zombie. With running zombies you don't have that. The odds are so stacked against you that survival for any time span is a huge victory. The survivors can look around and feel good that they are alive at all. They are not berating themselves and the human race for failure. It makes the situation and the resulting emotion single-dimensional. I'm not so sure that if a zombie outbreak were to happen that the survivors would take the time to ponder mankind's social failings. The survival instinct lies just beneath our civilized surface. Look at how "wonderfully" the folks in New Orleans reacted during Katrina. Many of them totally lost their minds raping, looting, and killing. Everything considered "civilized" broke down in just a few days. What do we think would happen in a zombie apocalypse and how much more crazy would that situation get I wonder.

[Trin]

I'm not so sure that if a zombie outbreak were to happen that the survivors would take the time to ponder mankind's social failings. The survival instinct lies just beneath our civilized surface. Look at how "wonderfully" the folks in New Orleans reacted during Katrina. Many of them totally lost their minds raping, looting, and killing. Everything considered "civilized" broke down in just a few days. What do we think would happen in a zombie apocalypse and how much more crazy would that situation get I wonder. I think that your observation supports my contention. Running zombies fit the mold of Katrina much better than shamblers. With runners you get a very quick fall of society which goes just as you describe.... no time for pondering, no clinging to civilized views of societal norms. Dawn '04 displayed a minute-by-minute struggle for survival prior to the mall being locked down. With shamblers the society falls slowly and somewhat inexplicably. It would be like if Katrina hit over a period of several weeks and as the water slowly rose people were paralyzed trying to figure out what to do. In Dawn '78 there is a recurring theme of people feeling like society as a whole failed to solve the problem. It's evident in the newsroom at the beginning, in the apartment, and in the mall crew. The pervasive vibe throughout the movie is, "How did we let this happen to ourselves?" That theme carries over to Day as they grapple with thier losing situation in the face of an enemy that they can easily control on small scales.

[Ragnarr]

I think that your observation supports my contention. Running zombies fit the mold of Katrina much better than shamblers. With runners you get a very quick fall of society which goes just as you describe.... no time for pondering, no clinging to civilized views of societal norms. Dawn '04 displayed a minute-by-minute struggle for survival prior to the mall being locked down. With shamblers the society falls slowly and somewhat inexplicably. It would be like if Katrina hit over a period of several weeks and as the water slowly rose people were paralyzed trying to figure out what to do. In Dawn '78 there is a recurring theme of people feeling like society as a whole failed to solve the problem. It's evident in the newsroom at the beginning, in the apartment, and in the mall crew. The pervasive vibe throughout the movie is, "How did we let this happen to ourselves?" That theme carries over to Day as they grapple with thier losing situation in the face of an enemy that they can easily control on small scales. Ah, I think I get your point. Dawn04 is like being water boarded while Dawn78 is like experiencing the drip drip drip of a Chinese water torture.

[Mike70]

There is a crucial point in here. With shamblers anyone knows you ought to be able to survive. Mankind should not fall to such a threat. Part of the horror is seeing man's failure to rise to the challenge. And seeing the people around you devolve into an "every man for himself" mentality. It evokes a lot more emotion than just fear - futility, frustration, anger, hatred, etc. This is why the conflict in GAR's movies is predominantly man vs. man, not man vs. zombie. the nail has been hit squarely on the head. Trin's point here is the crux of shamblers make better horror. shit shouldn't get to the point it does, but yet people cannot or will not cooperate in a manner that would turn the tide in favor of the living and turn it quick. shamblers remind me of the vast numbers of zulus who threw themselves repeatedly against a small number of HM 24th foot (2d Warwickshire) at rorke's drift. it must have been terrifying to see that coming at you, but the 24th held together, fought for each other and scored a major victory against incredible odds. runners are more like guerillas that can hit and move with great speed. that's far worse and far harder to deal with.

[Ragnarr]

It's very odd for me as a zombie flick fan. Initially, I found GAR's shamblers creepy. Then after seeing Snyder's runners in Dawn04, my opinion changed in that runners were far more scarey than shamblers. Today, runners seem to be so often used that I find myself moving back to the shambler camp. I suppose that's why TWD tries to use a mix of both types, which probably should be referred to as joggers.

[bassman]

Hobblers was the term Darabont used in interviews before the first season aired. He used Heinzman's walk/run from the beginning of Night as the template. Thus the "Heinzman Hobble" was born...

[Ragnarr]

----> Shambler----> Hobbler----> Runner----> Got it! Thanks.