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Thread: World War Z (film)

  1. #331
    Just Married AcesandEights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    I did rather enjoy Starship Troopers
    Starship Troopers was a great, fun film, but a farce compared to the source material. Doesn't really bother me one bit, save for the fact that good, thoughtful, 'hard' sci fi is so underrepresented in film (comparatively) that it's a bit of a shame when an opportunity to take a movie in that direction is overlooked.

    "Men choose as their prophets those who tell them that their hopes are true." --Lord Dunsany

  2. #332
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    Not wanting to war over/debate it again either, but..
    I've genuinely tried of late to see this whole "Running Zombies = Ramped up tension/terror" theory from the perspective of its believers. While on a basic level I can see how, if separated from everything I've come to know and love about my favorite zombie flicks, running zombies can certainly be more individually dangerous....I think that's at the root of my problem with them. A, as in ONE zombie SHOULD be pathetically easy to elude in a wide open space, and SHOULD be simple for anyone with the nerve to crack their skull open to neutralize. It's part of what (IMO) creates the US Vs Them gulf so important to the survival aspect of survival-horror. Conventional death, and subsequent rudimentary and ultimately flawed reanimation of a dead person just doesn't lend itself to the notion of the dead person becoming substantially deadlier in undeath than they were in life. Unlike vampirism, which presumes to make over the temporarily deceased individual into an Undead PREDATOR so different in so many ways from humans as to seem as if they've become a different species, the zombie-like reanimation process has no such in-built platform for the now-reanimated corpse to do anything more than what instinct and a haphazard selection of a minority of mental processes would make it capable of.

    More simply, the very act of making say, one zombie a substantial threat to three or four armed men well-acquainted with the logic-defying phenomena of the dead rising, who have armed and organized themselves accordingly, SEVERS the zombie's tie to logically needing to move in first groups, then herds, and finally hordes in order to "win." In a world where the audience understands within fifteen minutes of the movie beginning that a) Everyone who dies reanimates as a zombie unless penetrating cranial trauma occurs, and b) That said zombies retain their full speed, strength, agility PLUS gaining the endless stamina of the undead, the only question logically remaining is if the government has the means to stuff enough humans into a massive and completely, permanently self-sufficient bunker to maintain enough genetic diversity for the species to continue, and then saturation-bomb the entire globe with the most destructive weapons man possesses until literally NOTHING remains on the surface but scorched earth and spots where even the earth has been fused into glass and such...

    Why? Because that audience knows that would be the only imaginable way frail, limited humanity could "win" against legions of the dead with all our physical capabilities and then some, who can only be stopped by head trauma or complete bodily destruction. Quite simply, those interested in watching zombie movies are by now quite familiar with the "realistic" results of running, agile zombies. Ie: The few remaining humans doing whatever possible to reach a geographically impenetrable sanctuary, only to have said group of survivors slowly whittled down by stupid errors, surprise attacks, heroic self-sacrifices and such, until only a small handful remain to board the helicopter, get on the boat, etc etc....and then watch the writers and directors in what's supposed to STILL be an "edgy" fashion despite having been done many times over, kill those few remaining survivors off so the dead triumph is complete.

    Make no mistake, Running Zombies lead to binary-choice endings. All humans die, or some highly improbable deus ex machina reaches out across the entire globe as definitively as the zombie uprising did to begin with, and "saves" the minority % of humanity remaining. Why? Because there's no logical result of such running undead but the extinction of humanity or the approximate sanitation-by-firestorm globally to end the threat. Runners become a threat very similar to H.R Geiger's Xenomorphs from Alien, Aliens etc. As Ripley famously stated when confronted with a planet likely overrun by said creatures "Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."

    Now, if that's what you want. Various end-the-world mechanisms to deny the zombies victory, or the excruciatingly hopeless slide of humanity into extinction, then Runners are probably for you. If, on the other hand, you're interested in the exploration of a still-horrifying, but rationally more "beatable" undead threat, you recognize that in order to escape the binary-ending repetition that the individual zombie by definition cannot be allowed to be simultaneously an infectious AND a physical force-multiplier. Once it's physical capabilities are on par with the horrific capacity to convert the living by superficial contamination into still more zombies there simply isn't any reasonable way to present the scenario as anything but a siege-movie or an outright T.E.O.T.W.A.K.I (The End of The World As We Know It).

    Honestly, I think this conundrum right here, as outlined, defines the (ironically) greater limitations of plot-variation when the zombies aren't individually weak and relatively easily overcome individually.

  3. #333
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  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    Not wanting to war over/debate it again either, but..
    I've genuinely tried of late to see this whole "Running Zombies = Ramped up tension/terror" theory from the perspective of its believers. While on a basic level I can see how, if separated from everything I've come to know and love about my favorite zombie flicks, running zombies can certainly be more individually dangerous....I think that's at the root of my problem with them. A, as in ONE zombie SHOULD be pathetically easy to elude in a wide open space, and SHOULD be simple for anyone with the nerve to crack their skull open to neutralize. It's part of what (IMO) creates the US Vs Them gulf so important to the survival aspect of survival-horror. Conventional death, and subsequent rudimentary and ultimately flawed reanimation of a dead person just doesn't lend itself to the notion of the dead person becoming substantially deadlier in undeath than they were in life. Unlike vampirism, which presumes to make over the temporarily deceased individual into an Undead PREDATOR so different in so many ways from humans as to seem as if they've become a different species, the zombie-like reanimation process has no such in-built platform for the now-reanimated corpse to do anything more than what instinct and a haphazard selection of a minority of mental processes would make it capable of.

    More simply, the very act of making say, one zombie a substantial threat to three or four armed men well-acquainted with the logic-defying phenomena of the dead rising, who have armed and organized themselves accordingly, SEVERS the zombie's tie to logically needing to move in first groups, then herds, and finally hordes in order to "win." In a world where the audience understands within fifteen minutes of the movie beginning that a) Everyone who dies reanimates as a zombie unless penetrating cranial trauma occurs, and b) That said zombies retain their full speed, strength, agility PLUS gaining the endless stamina of the undead, the only question logically remaining is if the government has the means to stuff enough humans into a massive and completely, permanently self-sufficient bunker to maintain enough genetic diversity for the species to continue, and then saturation-bomb the entire globe with the most destructive weapons man possesses until literally NOTHING remains on the surface but scorched earth and spots where even the earth has been fused into glass and such...

    Why? Because that audience knows that would be the only imaginable way frail, limited humanity could "win" against legions of the dead with all our physical capabilities and then some, who can only be stopped by head trauma or complete bodily destruction. Quite simply, those interested in watching zombie movies are by now quite familiar with the "realistic" results of running, agile zombies. Ie: The few remaining humans doing whatever possible to reach a geographically impenetrable sanctuary, only to have said group of survivors slowly whittled down by stupid errors, surprise attacks, heroic self-sacrifices and such, until only a small handful remain to board the helicopter, get on the boat, etc etc....and then watch the writers and directors in what's supposed to STILL be an "edgy" fashion despite having been done many times over, kill those few remaining survivors off so the dead triumph is complete.

    Make no mistake, Running Zombies lead to binary-choice endings. All humans die, or some highly improbable deus ex machina reaches out across the entire globe as definitively as the zombie uprising did to begin with, and "saves" the minority % of humanity remaining. Why? Because there's no logical result of such running undead but the extinction of humanity or the approximate sanitation-by-firestorm globally to end the threat. Runners become a threat very similar to H.R Geiger's Xenomorphs from Alien, Aliens etc. As Ripley famously stated when confronted with a planet likely overrun by said creatures "Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."

    Now, if that's what you want. Various end-the-world mechanisms to deny the zombies victory, or the excruciatingly hopeless slide of humanity into extinction, then Runners are probably for you. If, on the other hand, you're interested in the exploration of a still-horrifying, but rationally more "beatable" undead threat, you recognize that in order to escape the binary-ending repetition that the individual zombie by definition cannot be allowed to be simultaneously an infectious AND a physical force-multiplier. Once it's physical capabilities are on par with the horrific capacity to convert the living by superficial contamination into still more zombies there simply isn't any reasonable way to present the scenario as anything but a siege-movie or an outright T.E.O.T.W.A.K.I (The End of The World As We Know It).

    Honestly, I think this conundrum right here, as outlined, defines the (ironically) greater limitations of plot-variation when the zombies aren't individually weak and relatively easily overcome individually.


    The best part about World War Z featuring runners is how it's gotten yourself and many others on the forum making amazing posts like THIS one, analyzing the genre.

    I know I myself have made analytical posts here, and on various entries of my blog, as a backlash to the World War Z trailer failure. And it's actually helped me understand why I loved the genre even MORE. They rustled our jimmies into greater understanding - trollightenment.
    Last edited by JonOfTheShred; 13-Dec-2012 at 10:00 AM. Reason: trollumination

  5. #335
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    I can only echo the agreements above and the analysis is spot on. We've had our fiery exchanges in the past, but I couldn't agree more with your sentiments Wyld.

    Zombie runners are just lazy.

    It's poor imagination, IMHO and in many ways the non-zombies of '28 Days Later' are to blame. But, while the infected of that film work well within it's context, there is also a believable "win" for humanity as the infected eventually die of starvation, due to the fact that they don't ingest any food. Whereas the "running" dead (who do not need to ingest anything) in the remake of 'Dawn of the Dead' are always going to be the winners and in and of itself, that's OK for that particular film. I just wish it was called something else. Then I might be able to enjoy that little bit more. But, yes, the running zombie film has one of two endings.

    The shambler/walker zombie vision will always be the superior one. But, it requires inventive thinking on behalf of film makers, which is sadly lacking in today's entertainment business, unfortunately. My idea of the genre seems to be coinciding with the likes of 'The Walking Dead', or to a lesser extent, Romero's original quartet of 'Night of the Living Dead' - 'Land of the Dead'. Unfortunately, Romero chose to go down the very ill-conceived "reboot" route and not where I hoped he'd go, which was into a continuation of his vision to a point where humanity and the dead had eventually come to terms, as it where. Not in an "agreement" type of way, but to a point where humans had begun to claw back a certain standard of life and had learned to live with the dead. Obviously the dead would still operate on their particular level, but the fortunes of humanity would have changed. He kind of got there with 'Land of the Dead', but unfortunately that film was also subject to some very bad decisions. The idea of "Fiddler's Green" was good, but it could have done with Romero's overweight "message" of haves and have nots.

    But, the essential point is that the shambler zombie arc can expand into many different outcomes, whereas the running zombie eventually...runs out of steam and boils down to an inevitable point.
    I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....

  6. #336
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    Thanks guys,
    Particularly you Shootem. We don't always agree, but it's heartening that even such at times fervent ideological adversaries can both come together in recognition of the Hollywood Laziness, producer interference with script and direction intent, and simple IGNORANCE on the part of many rookie Zombie-film making individuals (in every capacity of the film-making) that leads to their continually ignoring the Inevitable Binary Ending Trap. Hell, we should make an acronym of that, and just type that when people post pro-runner "I think running zombies are MUCH more terrifying than slow ones" reiterated for the umpteenth time.

    I.B.E.T, as in I Bet I could develop a better script, at least basic scene-blocking included than Uwe Boll and Zach Snyder combined, on their best day, in half the time. I.B.E.T, as in "I BET it wouldn't be due to any particular talent on my part, but simply a basic recognition of where 80-85% of zombie flicks made go terribly wrong.

    Lastly, and one source I didn't include in my original post I've been reminded of via PM, and out of respect for said PM's excellence will include here. Runner Zombies are NEARLY as close-to-equivalent as the "Bugs" of the ill-fated Starship Troopers films. I say nearly, because said bugs lack the human conversion element, whereas Xenomorphs convert humans into more Xenomorphs via using them as hosts in their life-cycle, and zombie infectiousness is so well-understood as to need no further explanation here.

    Although...one more point from said Starship Troopers movies is relevant to this topic. The ridiculous plot-device that a hive-mind insectoid race lacking a) Mobile capabilities in hard vacuum and b) Any technology whatsoever, could SOMEHOW fling City and Region-killing-sized Asteroids at human-occupied planets from LIGHT YEARS AWAY. I'll skip the patently obvious ridiculousness of speculating how such an absurd capability in the context of said story could be explained, and dive straight into why the Asteroid-flinging was included. It was a plot-fiat to explain why a Humanity capable of Intersteller travel couldn't just cordon off and quarantine the bug planets, establishing intricate webs of hunter-killer satellite networks with high-thermal-output lasers designed to fry any of these supposed "Spore Infested Asteroids" which somehow allowed alien insects the size of 4x4 trucks to rapidly infest a planet and swell their numbers into the hundreds of thousands before anyone was the wiser, and then simply forget about this supposedly species-threatening enemy.

    The basic point hidden in that explanation was, in the case of Starship Troopers (films, would NEVER BASH the book) the writing tried to avoid a binary-ending, and re-engage the human protagonists with their Alien "Other" adversaries face to face by use of one of the most poorly thought-out, completely unsupported, context absent plot devices that might as well have said in an opening prologue from the movie's production staff "The bugs can fling giant rocks over mind-crushingly inconceivable distances with the precision of GPS-guided smart-munitions...JUST BECAUSE! Just had to explain that, enjoy the movie people."

    Could a particularly imaginative writer and/or director eventually cook up some combination of implausible plot devices that both employs Runners as the movie antagonist and yet somehow avoids the binary-ending issue? Anything is possible given enough attempts if physics allows the event to occur. The better question is "Would such a writer/director be able to make this creative workaround of the Running Zombie binary-ending problem into an immersive, believable and SCARY narrative?" I believe, the answer is a vehement no. The layered suspension(s) of disbelief asked of the audience would be (again, IMO) simply too great to allow these hypothetical movie-viewers to immerse themselves in said plot.

    Sadly, this is why WWZ in its current incarnation cannot be mended by all the scene-reshoots, script redrafting and changes in director-emphasis. Without a back-to-the-drawing-board, return to Square One approach impossible because of the ghastly financial investment in the current incarnation, the WWZ film is a stillbirthed box-office disaster that not even name-association will (IMO) be able to salvage into slight profitability. If I were to find myself suddenly incarnated as the director of said cinema disaster, all I could do was try to turn it into Scary Movie-level satire of the genre in order to salvage anything at all from what they've already blown tens of millions of $$ on.

    Apologies, this went much longer than intended, but I wanted to voice some points made in private AND respond intelligently to the well-reasoned and encouraging responses my first post resulted in.

  7. #337
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    Super Bowl trailer... Nothing we haven't already seen really...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMUaymY6_Ek
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

  8. #338
    Just been bitten Staredge's Avatar
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    They're gonna spend a jillion dollars to put THAT on during the Super Bowl??? Seems kinda stupid to me. Why wouldn't you put something fantastic out that HASN'T been seen already?


    Hmmm......wonder why?

  9. #339
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    http://dailydead.com/new-trailer-for-world-war-z/


    God, this is gonna suck. Zeds on a frakkin AIRPLANE?!?!?!?!?!?!? I hate Brad Pitt. I want to punch him right in the ovaries.
    Last edited by Staredge; 23-Mar-2013 at 10:52 PM.

  10. #340
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    Just seen the new trailer...

    I will go to see it, but it will not be World War Z. It will be a zombie film that just happens to share the name.

  11. #341
    Just Married AcesandEights's Avatar
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    Looks just like the last trailer released, to my inattentive eyes.

    Anyway, I had almost forgot about this film, so you know that doesn't speak we'll of my anticipation for the project.

    "Men choose as their prophets those who tell them that their hopes are true." --Lord Dunsany

  12. #342
    Just been bitten Staredge's Avatar
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    There's a little bit of new footage. I refuse to give any money towards it. I hate running zombies, and if I'm not mistaken I thought I might have heard velociraptor roars as well. Explain to me how zombies could make a plane in flight vibrate?

  13. #343
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    Its a shame some of you put conditions on what you watch. This looks like a great disaster movie. We already know its not WWZ so its time to move on from that and accept it for what it is.
    The body is the instrument on which imagination plays.

    MY HOME CINEMA

  14. #344
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    Main condition I have is to not support people that take fantastic sources and totally ruin them. I don't think it looks like a great disaster movie......because it isn't. It's an overdone, runninq/sprinting/screeching, totally not related to the source material, zombie movie. Will I watch it when it shows up on free cable??? Maybe. Again, I love Starship Troopers the book, but have never been able to watch more than a few minutes of the movie without wanting to throw my tv out the window. This is going to be the same situation.

  15. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Staredge View Post
    Explain to me how zombies could make a plane in flight vibrate?
    The Harlem Shake? There's probably already a video out there on Youtube with exactly that, or should be, dammit.

    Quote Originally Posted by kidgloves View Post
    Its a shame some of you put conditions on what you watch. This looks like a great disaster movie. We already know its not WWZ so its time to move on from that and accept it for what it is.
    I've probably even bitched about it here in the past, but I'm too lazy to sift back through to check.
    I've also kind of forgotten about it, but to be honest, in the end I'll probably get baked and give 'er a twirl. Maybe low expectations will actually help. It did last night with Hansel and Gretel. All the reviews said it was a stinker.
    And I've never read the book, so I have no idea WTF anyway.

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