Corona Virus

[MinionZombie]

In regards to the NHS, I can understand the central idea - i.e. they are some of the most at-risk people for catching the virus (and then likely spreading it) - however, considering the ever-present complaints about staffing numbers (especially with so many people in-and-out of action 'cos of Covid), I think that making sure you don't drain the NHS of staff to extremely dangerous levels pips 'Rona in terms of importance. Again, I do find it curious that some Doctors and Nurses would rather play Russian Roulette (by not getting vaccinated). Sure, they might be fine - or they might end up dying, gasping for air and going out desperately wishing they'd chosen the other option. Such is the randomness of this fucking thing. Perhaps the experts are also trying to do their best to figure out what might happen, without enough results in front of them, because if Omicron turned out to be a stronger mutation then it'd help save lives. Might that be better than, again, going for pot luck and hoping it doesn't turn out bad with all and sundry walking around coughing on each other? What's the overall long term trajectory of these various mutations in terms of ease of transmission and strength?

[Neil]

In regards to the NHS, I can understand the central idea - i.e. they are some of the most at-risk people for catching the virus (and then likely spreading it) - however, considering the ever-present complaints about staffing numbers (especially with so many people in-and-out of action 'cos of Covid), I think that making sure you don't drain the NHS of staff to extremely dangerous levels pips 'Rona in terms of importance. Again, I do find it curious that some Doctors and Nurses would rather play Russian Roulette (by not getting vaccinated). Sure, they might be fine - or they might end up dying, gasping for air and going out desperately wishing they'd chosen the other option. Such is the randomness of this fucking thing. Perhaps the experts are also trying to do their best to figure out what might happen, without enough results in front of them, because if Omicron turned out to be a stronger mutation then it'd help save lives. Might that be better than, again, going for pot luck and hoping it doesn't turn out bad with all and sundry walking around coughing on each other? What's the overall long term trajectory of these various mutations in terms of ease of transmission and strength? If the idea is try and prevent NHS staff passing on the virus, then if you're vaccinated or not vaccinated, that can still take place. And after what seems to be about 6-8 weeks, the difference between vaccinated & unvaccinated appears to be little as regards catching/passing it on. Surely a much more sensible approach is to test regularly (at the moment) which will then help catch staff if they have covid (be they vaccinated or not vaccinated)? "Again, I do find it curious that some Doctors and Nurses would rather play Russian Roulette (by not getting vaccinated)" - Understood, but do you know anyone who drinks? Who smokes? Who uses a motorbike rather than a car? Why play Russian Roulette with your health by doing that? We all deserve to be able to weigh up health choices/decisions (within reason)... And I'm sure NHS folks who decide not to take the vaccine are more aware than most of us of what they are doing... "What's the overall long term trajectory of these various mutations in terms of ease of transmission and strength?" - It seems to thankfully become more transmissable, but less virulent, according to many sources... And this is what Omicron has demonstrated so far...

[MinionZombie]

"Again, I do find it curious that some Doctors and Nurses would rather play Russian Roulette (by not getting vaccinated)" - Understood, but do you know anyone who drinks? Who smokes? Who uses a motorbike rather than a car? Why play Russian Roulette with your health by doing that? We all deserve to be able to weigh up health choices/decisions (within reason)... And I'm sure NHS folks who decide not to take the vaccine are more aware than most of us of what they are doing... It's quite easy to drink alcohol without experiencing any negative effects ... and depending on which day of the week it is, I'm sure the Daily Mail is extolling the virtues of red wine. Smoking is rank, but an occasional ciggie isn't going to move the needle much - however, I'd wager most people who say they aren't a 'smoker smoker' are in really smokers and it is quite addictive, so it just gets worse. I don't understand why anyone would take up smoking in this day and age. Motorbike - yes, the risk is certainly higher, but even driving a car on the road can be dangerous and a whole host of factors come into play including weather, traffic, responsibility in driving (by yourself and everyone around you) etc. A virus is a whole other ball game, really. Not really a good comparison.

[Neil]

It's quite easy to drink alcohol without experiencing any negative effects ... and depending on which day of the week it is, I'm sure the Daily Mail is extolling the virtues of red wine. Smoking is rank, but an occasional ciggie isn't going to move the needle much - however, I'd wager most people who say they aren't a 'smoker smoker' are in really smokers and it is quite addictive, so it just gets worse. I don't understand why anyone would take up smoking in this day and age. Motorbike - yes, the risk is certainly higher, but even driving a car on the road can be dangerous and a whole host of factors come into play including weather, traffic, responsibility in driving (by yourself and everyone around you) etc. A virus is a whole other ball game, really. Not really a good comparison. Yes and no... My point is, many life choices involve you weighing up your own personal risk analysis. etc etc... If I don't get vaccinated, how likely am I to die from covid? At the moment, it's probably quite literally in the tens of thousands to one, if not hundreds of thousands to one - Remember most people passing away have a significant comorbidity. And there's a reason why the average age of death is greater than life expectancy. But ultimately, if I decide the possible side effects of the vaccine don't appeal to me and outweigh the risk of the virus as I see it, and I'm happy to let my immune system do its thing, what's the problem? It's the exact same reason why the JVCI recommended children should not be vaccinated. They weighed it up, and decide the risk they faced from CV simply wasn't worth the risk of side effects etc. And that was even before Omicron which would push the scales even more in that direction. Give people the information. Let them choose. Governments should not be mandating and coercing people into doing something they don't want to in the way we're seeing happening more and more... It's horrid. TALKING OF WHICH... Seems there's talk of Djokovic now being rearrested after just being released. Hope it's false as that would be even more utter illogical political theater.

[shootemindehead]

Here you go then... I'll even start the thread for you - https://forum.homepageofthedead.com/...ad.php?t=24589 But let's try and keep this thread covid related though as much as possible... Well, that wasn't really my intent...but...

[MinionZombie]

Of course, the choice to not get vaccinated isn't just playing pot luck for yourself, it's playing pot luck for everyone you care about - as in, if you contract the virus while unvaccinated, surely your risk of dying from it is higher. I see these stories about people who refused the vaccine (folks who 'trusted' their immune system to do its job) who then died from the virus and I think about the families they left behind - something that could have quite possibly been avoided if they'd just had the vaccine. So someone isn't just playing Russian Roulette with their own life, but they're risking a whole hell of a lot of awfulness (the emotional devastation, years of living and loving lost, financial chaos etc) for their families as well.

[Neil]

Of course, the choice to not get vaccinated isn't just playing pot luck for yourself, it's playing pot luck for everyone you care about - as in, if you contract the virus while unvaccinated, surely your risk of dying from it is higher. I see these stories about people who refused the vaccine (folks who 'trusted' their immune system to do its job) who then died from the virus and I think about the families they left behind - something that could have quite possibly been avoided if they'd just had the vaccine. So someone isn't just playing Russian Roulette with their own life, but they're risking a whole hell of a lot of awfulness (the emotional devastation, years of living and loving lost, financial chaos etc) for their families as well. Risk Assessment By that rationale then, couldn't we suggest no one should take any unnecessary car journeys? ie: Why put other people at unnecessary risk when that journey may result in a car crash or hitting a pedestrian. But the reason why we do not think that way is because the risk is small and we trust people to run their own risk assessments all the time. So, if I'm young and live in a house with a healthy young partner, the vaccine is of little benefit to either of us (especially with Omicron) - I'm probably just as likely to die from the flu. But if I live in a house with someone with a serious health condition, or who is very old, then my risk assessment might suggest it makes more sense to have the vaccine. Note: It would definitely make even more sense for the person at risk to be vaccinated. Let's say at the moment your average healthy member of the public probably has something akin to a one in a million chance of dying from covid? With the vaccine making it one in a couple or so of million? But then consider their concern about possible negative side effects given their personal medical state of say one in a million? Should they? Shouldn't they? With this consideration being necessary for each and every jab/booster? Infection Some studies have shown within households for example, vaccinated individuals seem basically as likely to pass it on as unvaccinated. So in some circumstances vaccination appear not to affect (by much) how likely you are to pass it on. ie: The notion of protecting other people by you being vaccinated maybe isn't as black and white as suggested. Vaccination Surely the logical end point of all of this - especially given the apparent behaviour of Omicron so far - is akin to the flu jab? ie: If you think you are at risk from the flu, you have the jab. So if you think you're at risk from CV, you take that jab? Done... The notion of tens of millions of people taking a jab for a possible benefit to others, or worse still, be forced/coerced to take the jab, as you know, doesn't sit well with me.

[MinionZombie]

Although with flu jabs, they want far more people to take it than actually do. If more people were getting it, it'd help cut down the spread. I don't think you've really touched on my argument RE: the families left behind and devastated as a result of someone not getting vaccinated and 'trusting' their immune system out of pure belief. Even very, or extremely, healthy people (e.g. Lewis Hamilton) have suffered from 'Long Covid' (and he's only just turned 37 years old, so he's young to boot). I'm not keen on this thing of forcing people to get vaccinated, and 'vaccine passports' and such, but I don't have answers either way. Both sides have their arguments, and both sides are fucked one way or another by the virus just not giving a shit by any kind of argument - it'll do what it does. I think it's a very bad idea to shove aside NHS staff, for instance, because the staffing pressures already in existence is a bigger problem both in the immediate and long terms.

[Neil]

I don't think you've really touched on my argument RE: the families left behind and devastated as a result of someone not getting vaccinated and 'trusting' their immune system out of pure belief. Even very, or extremely, healthy people (e.g. Lewis Hamilton) have suffered from 'Long Covid' (and he's only just turned 37 years old, so he's young to boot). Soz... That's surely just personal choice is it not? Am I as an adult not permitted to evaluate my health and the risks to it? ie: Should I never take an unnecessary car journey in case it ends poorly? Should I never own a motorbike for the increased hazard it poses? Should I never go out for the risk of catching flu and dying? I fully understand your point, and covid deaths and long covid are of course sad outcomes. But life it all about risks and even the vaccine does not prevent these issues, only lessen them (temporarily?), but while introducing other risks. ie: I'm sure you're aware - even though the press and certainly social networks are not keen to report of it - that people are suffering side effects such as heart issues, blood clots, menstruation issues, compromised immune system, frozen limbs etc etc. People need to be free to assess their own health and risks, and act accordingly. Anything else such as mandated or coerced vaccination is heading into Orwell territory frankly (or New Zealand ). I think it's a very bad idea to shove aside NHS staff, for instance, because the staffing pressures already in existence is a bigger problem both in the immediate and long terms. And the same issue is happening in care homes too, with the government trying to now patch the issue by allow foreign carers to enter the UK for positions, at the expense of UK carers losing their jobs. Bonkers! To think care home residents are now having to go into the likes of hospitals putting them at far great health risk due to the shortage of carers... Hmmm... But I guess these policies sound good. - - - Updated - - - BTW, another (UK) doctor commenting on possibly losing their job/role over not being vaccinated. A very interesting listen... And a very interesting explanation of why she's choosing not to get the vaccine.

[MinionZombie]

Driving a car or riding a motorcycle, in and of themselves, aren't a risk though. There's myriad external factors that make it risky to one degree or another, some of which you can control yourself (e.g. keeping to the speed limit, wearing a seat belt, leaving more space when it's wet/icy/slippery, lane discipline, knowing the rules of the road, operating the vehicle responsibly and capably). Choosing to not get vaccinated isn't just about oneself, though. Again, I come back to the pot luck nature of it - even for people who are seemingly perfectly healthy - running the risk of dying and leaving behind devastated family members, some who might find themselves in real trouble (e.g. if the deceased was the sole breadwinner, if the partner left behind has to now solo-parent several children etc). My choice in getting vaccinated wasn't just about me. We're a small family with no real extended family remaining (the few remaining are scattered in all directions, some of them I've never even met), and with my Dad in poor physical and mental health now and my Mum needing all the help I can give her, it was absolutely unacceptable to me to not get vaccinated. Sure, I could have not had a vaccine, caught Covid, and been fine - but I could also have not had a vaccine, caught Covid, and died and left my already weakened and troubled family much weaker and even more troubled. This is the sort of thing I'm getting at.

[Neil]

Driving a car or riding a motorcycle, in and of themselves, aren't a risk though. There's myriad external factors that make it risky to one degree or another, some of which you can control yourself (e.g. keeping to the speed limit, wearing a seat belt, leaving more space when it's wet/icy/slippery, lane discipline, knowing the rules of the road, operating the vehicle responsibly and capably). Yes, it's a piss poor analogy But, anytime you take a car trip or ride a motor cycle you're almost certainly exposing yourself to more risk than staying at home. Should we then not limit unnecessary journeys as you're needlessly risking your life? Choosing to not get vaccinated isn't just about oneself, though. Again, I come back to the pot luck nature of it - even for people who are seemingly perfectly healthy - running the risk of dying and leaving behind devastated family members, some who might find themselves in real trouble (e.g. if the deceased was the sole breadwinner, if the partner left behind has to now solo-parent several children etc). But when it appears to more and more be the case that vaccinated people are just as likely to pass on covid as the unvaccinated, and indeed with the potential they have less significant/obvious symptoms, possibly more likely, the notion of getting the vaccine to prevent infecting others becomes more and more questionable surely? My choice in getting vaccinated wasn't just about me. We're a small family with no real extended family remaining (the few remaining are scattered in all directions, some of them I've never even met), and with my Dad in poor physical and mental health now and my Mum needing all the help I can give her, it was absolutely unacceptable to me to not get vaccinated. Sure, I could have not had a vaccine, caught Covid, and been fine - but I could also have not had a vaccine, caught Covid, and died and left my already weakened and troubled family much weaker and even more troubled. This is the sort of thing I'm getting at. Totally and utterly understood. And when I got vaccinated my thinking was much the same (towards my 88yr old mother). That said, our understanding of the virus and vaccines have changed over the past year or so. It's clear now the vaccine is not the brick wall with 100% efficacy basically originally pitched, but something far more subtle and in truth not in anyway as effective. ie: Current research even seems to suggest after 6-8 weeks there may be little/no difference to if you had taken the vaccine or not, to how suspectable you are to catching it. A reason why the most vaccinated populus on the planet is now onto their 4th jab? The pitch - especially to coerce children into vaccination who really do not need it - that you are responsible for saving other people lives by taking the vaccine, is IMHO not reasonable. It's all very vague and sets a bad precedent. ie: And leads us back to the never taking unnecessary car/bike trips scenario incase you make a mistake and kill someone. (Yes, it's a piss poor analogy ) ps: Did you watch that last video of the doctor? Interesting!

[MinionZombie]

When was the last time you drove a car "unnecessarily"? The days of driving on public roads for fun are pretty much gone. Mind you, early in that first lock down, when giving the car a run to keep the battery zapped up it was like driving on a Thunderbirds road - almost entirely empty, and in some cases no other vehicles in sight. Magic! This virus is a bitch in so many ways, and hard to pin down in many ways - which will be part of the reason that the vaccines aren't good enough to actually snuff it out properly like we can with other vaccines for various diseases (but they've also had the benefit of long development times). In many ways, this whole Covid-19 palava has been unprecedented.

[Neil]

When was the last time you drove a car "unnecessarily"? Today to buy a costa coffee I didn't need? What about to pick up someone who could have walked or taken a bus/taxi. Pick up something that could have been delivered? Go to the pub with friends instead of having a Zoom? etc... And the (poor) analogy continues... Many people are injured and die from DIY accidents. Maybe we should get professionals in rather than risk ourselves? etc etc... The point being, with all of these (poor) examples, there is obviously a risk analysis at play. Is this risk of X worth the benefit of Y? So, likewise, is the risk of being vaccinated worth the benefit of it? Everyone having different values, health and concerns, they will value X and Y differently and come to different choices. eg: I know a couple of women who had their first vaccine and have had such long term significant menstruation issues they do not consider the risk of continued vaccinations worth the potential benefit. And undoubtably we have people who haven't been vaccinated and have suffered or even died from covid as extreme examples of this choice not working well for them, but to suggest the vaccination choice should only balance in one direction, for everyone, seems questionable to me... And to suggest people should then be coerced into it? Yuk! Note: As regards coercion, we of course had the threat of losing your job/role if unvaccinated. But we now have the threat of fines and taxes on unvaccinated people now in certain countries/districts. Even more subtly we have firms threatening not to pay sick pack for unvaccinated people isolating with covid. It's horrific, especially given the true basically minor risk involved for most folks! - - - Updated - - - This is interesting - https://gazette.com/news/judge-scrap...e969ec51d.html The Food and Drug Administration won't have 75 years to release thousands of pages of documents it relied on to license its COVID-19 vaccine. Instead, the federal agency will have just over eight months to do so, per a federal judge's ruling. So rather than information about the vaccine creation process not coming out until long after the people involved with it are dead, it'll come out later this year. - - - Updated - - - The Wuhan Lab leak theory is still giving us entertainment - https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-collins...190207092.html Seems 18 months or so ago, some leading scientists were suggesting it was possible if not indeed likely the virus had come from a lab leak. But alarmingly it appears these voices were not heard potentially due to the policies and views of Social Media and the MSM at the time, or they were in effect buried for concerns they might, "do great potential harm to science and international harmony." (One has to wonder how much of that decision came due to the provailing strong media narrative it was a "conspiracy theory", or simply down to $?) So if we look back 18 months ago we were seemingly in the bizarre position where voicing the opinion that the virus could have come from the lab risked being kicked off of social media, or labelled a conspiracy theorist by "fact checkers" or some of the MSM. All the while some top scientists were suggesting it was possible, if not indeed likely. Once again, we seem to see Social Media and the like appointing themselves the arbiters of truth not working out well. Going to be interesting to see how this pans out. Because of course if there is truth to these claims, and the virus was likely to have come from the Wuhan lab rather than being natural, then surely the next questions revolves around gain of function and also if US money helped pay for it? And we can only imagine the struggle there will be to prove that or hold people accountable for it. ps: This news also doesn't seem to look good the Fauci who after hearing these views was vocal in dismissing the leak theory.

[Neil]

A bit of covid comedy about Boris' lockdown party debacle... - - - Updated - - -

[paranoid101]