So which Night film is canon to George's series, original or remake?

[EvilNed]

Remember that time this thread was about Night of the Living Dead and it’s remake? Seriously, what does it matter who’s “right”, “wrong”, or has the last word?...... A part of me is always happy when this discussion resurfaces because it reminds me of the old days when we used to discuss Romero films more in depth than we do now. - - - Updated - - - Most people are of the opinion that 'Land before Day' is nonsensical. Therefore the reductio ad absurdum of 'Day before Land' does make sense as a comparison from that perspective. To be quite clear, I don't think the argument that Land takes place prior to Day is absurd (I just don't agree with it on any level), but I do think the arguments being thrown around to support this stance is absurd. There's quite a bit of mental gymnastics involved when discussing the aforementioned dialogue or things like why they haven't explored all that much in Day etc. etc.

[JDP]

Most people are of the opinion that 'Land before Day' is nonsensical. Therefore the reductio ad absurdum of 'Day before Land' does make sense as a comparison from that perspective. And that should tell you how deficient in logic and common sense such people are. Anyone who seriously tries to make that comparison clearly "doesn't know shit from Shinola", pardoning the "French" of that popular expression. It is so obviously a fallacy it's almost (I said almost!) not even funny. And don't make me explain why again! On the other hand, the arguments for Land happening before Day are all coherent and logical, not based on impossibilities like that dumb-as-bricks fallacious Night after Day "analogy", which is totally invalidated by simple reality, how the world actually works. It has nothing to do with any contradictory details between two movies.

[MinionZombie]

A part of me is always happy when this discussion resurfaces because it reminds me of the old days when we used to discuss Romero films more in depth than we do now. It is nice to have an in depth thread about a Romero movie, isn't it? We'd kind of burned through a lot of the topics back then. Although going round in circles on this topic - especially as it was a nightmare the first time around several years ago - (don't even get me started on the old thread battling about the use of paper money in Land, a topic which was touched upon in this very thread again) - is a weird case of morbid fascination and disturbed curiosity. I recall a poll, many moons ago on HPOTD when this topic originally reared its ugly head, where the question of Day/Land or Land/Day was put before HPOTD, and the overwhelming majority voted Day/Land.

[JDP]

It is nice to have an in depth thread about a Romero movie, isn't it? We'd kind of burned through a lot of the topics back then. Although going round in circles on this topic - especially as it was a nightmare the first time around several years ago - (don't even get me started on the old thread battling about the use of paper money in Land, a topic which was touched upon in this very thread again) - is a weird case of morbid fascination and disturbed curiosity. I recall a poll, many moons ago on HPOTD when this topic originally reared its ugly head, where the question of Day/Land or Land/Day was put before HPOTD, and the overwhelming majority voted Day/Land. The majority also voted Hitler or Trump in. That should tell you that the average Joe isn't exactly a paragon of logic and common sense The more critical minority won't have much of a problem understanding very well why the opposite is what makes more sense, judging by what the movies in question say, show and imply (leaving what the filmmaker's intentions might have been aside, which is another issue; this has to be judged by what the movies themselves show, say and imply, not by what the filmmaker outside of the movie has said or implied.)

[MinionZombie]

Godwin's Law still getting its exercise on Internet discussion forums. There aren't enough Picard memes in the world for that response. JDP, if you could monetise your curious form of logic, you'd be a very rich man.

[Philly_SWAT]

A part of me is always happy when this discussion resurfaces because it reminds me of the old days when we used to discuss Romero films more in depth than we do now. Absolutely agree with this. Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post Most people are of the opinion that 'Land before Day' is nonsensical. Therefore the reductio ad absurdum of 'Day before Land' does make sense as a comparison from that perspective. To be quite clear, I don't think the argument that Land takes place prior to Day is absurd (I just don't agree with it on any level), but I do think the arguments being thrown around to support this stance is absurd. There's quite a bit of mental gymnastics involved when discussing the aforementioned dialogue or things like why they haven't explored all that much in Day etc. etc. To Minion, your assessment that 'most people' are of the opinion that Land is before Day is nonsensical... It is more than likely true that most people feel Day comes before Land, but firstly that doesnt mean its true, and secondly, most people havent given the topic much, if any,thought at all, and would just think that films in a particular series of films would naturally follow a chronological order, which they normally do. However, all you would have to do would be to tell them to think of the Star Wars series to illustrate that it is not unique in the film world for films to be released with the stories of each film, while being set in the same universe, not being released in chronological order. NO ONE seriously thinks Day was before Night, some people do think Land is before Day, so the one does not hold a mirror to the other. To EvilNed, to also be clear, I don't think the argument that Day takes place prior to Land is absurd (I just don't agree with it on any level). Unlike others, I have never claimed, either seriously or sarcastically, that it is absurd, only that I disagree and make arguments as to why I feel that way. Perhaps there is some level of "mental gymnastics" on either side of the argument, but that is up to the reader to decide on their own. Part if the reason for this is Romero's lack of attention to minute details, which is part of what leads to the fun of discussion. And to continue the discussion, since you specifically brought it up, the people in Day had a mission, and that mission did not include 'exploring' or 'looking for survivors'. Their mission was very specific...try to find a scientific explanation as to what the hell was happening and find a way to stop/cure/curtail the zombie problem. In an effort to do this, they had a scientific team (obviously needed), soldiers (naturally a good idea) to assist the mission and to provide protection, a pilot for transportation (the topside scenes were filmed on an island, although the film does not specifically mention this, but whether on an island or not, a chopper would be a good mode of transport, especially in bugging out quick), and a communications expert. So much in the film says to me they have been here a long time. "WE used to talk to Washington all the time". In normal conversation, no one uses this phrase to denote you are talking about a short period of time. If we have been in a bunker for 3 weeks, talked to Washington the first two weeks but not the third, we wouldnt say we used to "all the time". Common understanding of the English language says the idea is we for a long time we used to talk to them, but now after a significant amount of time has passed, we havent. To round up all those zombies and put collars on them would be dangerous and take a long time. The soldiers are now not wanting to do that anymore. After only a few months, trained military personnel dont want to help a project where literally the survival of the human race is at stake? Seems like (I would HOPE SO anyway) a long time would have to pass before the military would feel this way. If it were close to the start of the outbreak, wouldnt they think/hope that things will eventually work out? Would they openly cultivate marijuana plants, not hidden away, but right at the chopper landing area, where any superior that might show up any minute would easily see them? After years perhaps, sure, but right after the outbreak started? Seems unlikely to me. I took it that they were looking for survivors, not as part of their mission, and not something they had been doing at all for the time they had been there, but only recently, because they had not talked to their superiors in Washington for quite some time, and were fearful that perhaps most everyone on earth was dead, and were looking for evidence about that one way or the other. In Land, people are abundant, and going to clubs, gambling, eating at hot dogs carts in the streets, in Day, there is no people anywhere (or at least for 150 miles in each direction). To me, this illustrates that much more time has passed in Day than in Land, regardless of any timestamps given in dialogue. The above paragraph is just some of my assessments of the timeline in the two films. An intelligent, reasonable person may disagree with my conclusions, but I dont feel it would be accurate to dismiss everything I said as 'grasping at straws' or any other insult. They are all logical, make sense, and are in support of my overall argument, which may or not be accurate.

[JDP]

Godwin's Law still getting its exercise on Internet discussion forums. There aren't enough Picard memes in the world for that response. JDP, if you could monetise your curious form of logic, you'd be a very rich man. Oh wow, you really got me there! Try this one on for size: the average Joe also believes in UFOs and horoscopes and "evil eyes" and what have you. Now try to find another fanciful made-up "law" in order to try to invalidate the analogy And yet I can't help to sense that you actually still think that the Night after Day pseudo-analogy is somehow "valid" LOL @ "curious form of logic" for simple, standard, run-of-the-mill logic and common sense that everyone in the world with at least an iota of critical sense can easily follow and understand.

[bassman]

And to continue the discussion, since you specifically brought it up, the people in Day had a mission, and that mission did not include 'exploring' or 'looking for survivors'. Huh? The film literally opens with them doing exactly that.....?

[JDP]

Absolutely agree with this. To Minion, your assessment that 'most people' are of the opinion that Land is before Day is nonsensical... It is more than likely true that most people feel Day comes before Land, but firstly that doesnt mean its true, and secondly, most people havent given the topic much, if any,thought at all, and would just think that films in a particular series of films would naturally follow a chronological order, which they normally do. However, all you would have to do would be to tell them to think of the Star Wars series to illustrate that it is not unique in the film world for films to be released with the stories of each film, while being set in the same universe, not being released in chronological order. NO ONE seriously thinks Day was before Night, some people do think Land is before Day, so the one does not hold a mirror to the other. To EvilNed, to also be clear, I don't think the argument that Day takes place prior to Land is absurd (I just don't agree with it on any level). Unlike others, I have never claimed, either seriously or sarcastically, that it is absurd, only that I disagree and make arguments as to why I feel that way. Perhaps there is some level of "mental gymnastics" on either side of the argument, but that is up to the reader to decide on their own. Part if the reason for this is Romero's lack of attention to minute details, which is part of what leads to the fun of discussion. And to continue the discussion, since you specifically brought it up, the people in Day had a mission, and that mission did not include 'exploring' or 'looking for survivors'. Their mission was very specific...try to find a scientific explanation as to what the hell was happening and find a way to stop/cure/curtail the zombie problem. In an effort to do this, they had a scientific team (obviously needed), soldiers (naturally a good idea) to assist the mission and to provide protection, a pilot for transportation (the topside scenes were filmed on an island, although the film does not specifically mention this, but whether on an island or not, a chopper would be a good mode of transport, especially in bugging out quick), and a communications expert. So much in the film says to me they have been here a long time. "WE used to talk to Washington all the time". In normal conversation, no one uses this phrase to denote you are talking about a short period of time. If we have been in a bunker for 3 weeks, talked to Washington the first two weeks but not the third, we wouldnt say we used to "all the time". Common understanding of the English language says the idea is we for a long time we used to talk to them, but now after a significant amount of time has passed, we havent. To round up all those zombies and put collars on them would be dangerous and take a long time. The soldiers are now not wanting to do that anymore. After only a few months, trained military personnel dont want to help a project where literally the survival of the human race is at stake? Seems like (I would HOPE SO anyway) a long time would have to pass before the military would feel this way. If it were close to the start of the outbreak, wouldnt they think/hope that things will eventually work out? Would they openly cultivate marijuana plants, not hidden away, but right at the chopper landing area, where any superior that might show up any minute would easily see them? After years perhaps, sure, but right after the outbreak started? Seems unlikely to me. I took it that they were looking for survivors, not as part of their mission, and not something they had been doing at all for the time they had been there, but only recently, because they had not talked to their superiors in Washington for quite some time, and were fearful that perhaps most everyone on earth was dead, and were looking for evidence about that one way or the other. In Land, people are abundant, and going to clubs, gambling, eating at hot dogs carts in the streets, in Day, there is no people anywhere (or at least for 150 miles in each direction). To me, this illustrates that much more time has passed in Day than in Land, regardless of any timestamps given in dialogue. The above paragraph is just some of my assessments of the timeline in the two films. An intelligent, reasonable person may disagree with my conclusions, but I dont feel it would be accurate to dismiss everything I said as 'grasping at straws' or any other insult. They are all logical, make sense, and are in support of my overall argument, which may or not be accurate. The "exploration" thingy regarding Day is indeed nothing but yet another faulty and ill-conceived argument from the Land after Day front. But it did not occur to them that what really makes little sense is the fact that the mercenary armies in Land are still actively looting the hell out of towns that are nearby the populous human city... this after a supposed THREE FRIGGIN' YEARS WORTH of such looting fests Those nearby abandoned towns would have obviously been picked clean to the bone long before that in order to be able to supply food, medicine, booze, tobacco, etc., to the city's large population. The mercenary armies of Land would therefore obviously have to increasingly go farther and farther away from the city as time passes in order to still find plenty of supplies left to suffice for the large population back in the city. - - - Updated - - - Huh? The film literally opens with them doing exactly that.....? But how do you know how much time they have already been in the bunker doing those other things before they started exploring that particular area in the opening sequence? Answer: nobody knows, since the movie is quite vague regarding time references. But you can get a pretty good idea that they have been busy indeed. As Philly_SWAT pointed out in the post above, the sheer number of zombies they have captured and brought down to the caves is already enough to have kept these guys very busy for quite a long time. Having pointed this out, it is also very obvious from some of the comments they make that they have in fact been exploring other areas before. So exploration has been a part-time activity, just obviously not the only one, or the most important one.

[bassman]

Yeah, I agree that “nobody knows” is quite applicable to most of this.

[JDP]

Yeah, I agree that “nobody knows” is quite applicable to most of this. Now go one step beyond the obvious and start using logic and deductive reasoning. You know, like how a detective who wasn't actually there to see who the murderer was can actually catch him nonetheless by making a series of logical deductions based on other evidence. Despite not being able to know "exactly" how long those guys have been in that bunker, it is pretty obvious from the other evidence shown in the movie that it has not been a short time. Those guys have been there for quite a while. Again, just the sheer amount of unruly, dangerous zombies they have captured and transported down to the caves is enough to have kept these guys busy for quite a while.

[bassman]

Now go one step beyond the obvious and start using logic and deductive reasoning. You know, like how a detective who wasn't actually there to see who the murderer was can actually catch him nonetheless by making a series of logical deductions based on other evidence. Despite not being able to know "exactly" how long those guys have been in that bunker, it is pretty obvious from the other evidence shown in the movie that it has not been a short time. Those guys have been there for quite a while. Again, just the sheer amount of unruly, dangerous zombies they have captured and transported down to the caves is enough to have kept these guys busy for quite a while. I think I may have said it in this thread before, but I personally feel like all this timeline stuff is of no importance to Romero’s films or to the viewer’s enjoyment of those films. None of them are true sequels to the others, so any timeframe between them or the attempt to put them in any sort of chronological order is down to personal preference of the viewer, IMO. Sure, there could be little hints here and there throughout the four of them, but at the end of the day they’re really individual films linked only by the central phenomenon of the dead rising.

[Philly_SWAT]

Originally Posted by Philly_SWAT And to continue the discussion, since you specifically brought it up, the people in Day had a mission, and that mission did not include 'exploring' or 'looking for survivors'. Huh? The film literally opens with them doing exactly that.....? Indeed. But later in that same paragraph, I addressed that concern. Originally Posted by Philly_SWAT I took it that they were looking for survivors, not as part of their mission, and not something they had been doing at all for the time they had been there, but only recently, because they had not talked to their superiors in Washington for quite some time, and were fearful that perhaps most everyone on earth was dead, and were looking for evidence about that one way or the other.

[bassman]

Indeed. But later in that same paragraph, I addressed that concern. I must’ve missed that... Orrrrr.....you edited it in!

[JDP]

I think I may have said it in this thread before, but I personally feel like all this timeline stuff is of no importance to Romero’s films or to the viewer’s enjoyment of those films. None of them are true sequels to the others, so any timeframe between them or the attempt to put them in any sort of chronological order is down to personal preference of the viewer, IMO. Sure, there could be little hints here and there throughout the four of them, but at the end of the day they’re really individual films linked only by the central phenomenon of the dead rising. Now we were not talking about something that had to be compared between two or more of Romero's zombie movies, but only of a time-frame within Day itself. It is perfectly possible to deduce from what we are shown in that movie that those guys have been in that bunker for quite a while. Whether you consider Day to be a "stand-alone" movie or not, makes no difference for this. Rounding up that huge bunch of unruly zombies and taking them down the caves must have taken quite an amount of time and effort to pull off. Just look at all the trouble that handling just a couple of them at a time gives them, and that in a more confined area where they can handle them more easily. Now imagine having to go to the surface, where these freaks are roaming free at their leisure, and in who-knows how large a group you might encounter them, and then having to capture them and transport them to the underground caves. Certainly a dangerous and difficult thing to pull off.