TWD 2x12 "Better Angels" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Wyldwraith]

Entire thing was telegraphed and because of the nature of TV/show logistics there was 0% suspense. Every single viewer knew and understood that this was where Shane died, because they weren't going to allow him to remove Andrew Lincoln from the show's lead role. Ironically, even in killing Shane there was Rick proving Shane right about his weakness. So caught up with Carl possibly seeing him as the bad guy he woulda been munched if not for Carl's nauseatingly unrealistic dead-eye accuracy. Beyond that, even knowing all the while Shane was conspiring to get him alone to kill him, Rick was going on about there being a way back from this...refusing to accept reality in favor of seeing things as he would have them be. Dale was a shocker. This episode...as much as I absolutely HATE that Shane's gone now and Rick is UBER-BACKSLIDING into super-morality, there was simply no tension to it at all. Maybe that was their goal, to create a feeling of inevitability, but that intent if so would be the only saving grace of the plot-logistics of the episode. Otherwise it just boils down to watching 30 minutes of complete futility you know the ending of in as much depth as the writers. JDFP said it last week, so guess it's my turn this week. No survivors left I give a damn about, and I'd root for the Walkers except the show's ratings are too high to allow a group wipe-out or (same thing, effectively) an Andrew Lincoln removal. So now I really don't know what to do. I detested Lori's selfish apology that was entirely about making her feel better, while taking back none of the awful ultimatums she'd slammed Shane with. Could admit she don't knows whose baby it is, but of course couldn't go back on the whole "Even if it's yours it's Rick's" slap in the face. Not gonna go off on this whole hate-spew, but I'll just say that for me, without Shane, everything collapses in on itself because even characters I sort of like (like Andrea and Daryl) will now be sucked wholehearted into Rick's uber-morality gravity well. Plus, with 2 main character's dead in as many weeks, logistics fairly demands the only people that could die in this imminent zombie-swarming are non-entities the likes of T-Dog at best, or Herschel and/or some of his nameless placeholder-people. Rooting for the Walkers feels rather futile when you know show logistics won't allow for a Rick or Lori killing. Eating T-Dog, or one of Herschel's people (or even Herschel, really) would have all the dramatic punch of watching credits roll. I know given my recent track record people would be expecting some kind of explosion, but really I just can't muster the fire for it. People have already mentioned this is more in line with the comics, and fair enough, but I just don't know how to care about a group in such utter denial of their circumstances that the only thing preserving their lives are show-logistics. You just CAN'T maintain civilized-world morality in a post-apocalyptic environment, and trying is both STUPID and (again, for me) about as interesting to watch in its maximum non-realism as paint drying. Last thing: A huge Walker surge when show-logistics are telling you they won't eliminate anymore core characters in the event removes all the tension and uncertainty in the same way that show-logistics killed all the tension/uncertainty of Rick and Shane's joke of a showdown. It renders the Walkers utterly non-menacing bodies to be shot at and run from. With Shane, there was someone who actually made sense in an apocalypse, without him it's back to happy-happy denial land. Will prolly be the last time I say anything in this forum unless/until another core character emerges to undercut Rick. Given his Dale-induced backsliding...Yea well, that's that. No one would be surprised if I said it, so I'll fulfill expectations and admit I WANTED to cheer Shane on to murder Rick even as I knew show-logistics wasn't going to allow it. Me personally, I'd have drawn and shot him in the back of the head the moment he stepped out in front of me. If Shane really believed the things he was saying then HE betrayed Lori and Carl by his weakness leaving them with a clearly inferior protector who will ALWAYS be inferior. God, they couldn't even have Rick draw down and drop him pre-emptively to indicate he'd learned ANYTHING from Shane. He had to whine and cry while he did it. Hell, I woulda been fine with Rick stabbing Shane and Shane dropping Rick with a dying shot. I hate the Rick character that much. Heh, guess I did have some hate-rant on me. /crucify: On.

[White_Zombie]

eat my ........ blank if you all get bent out of shape over a spoiler then you really have issues. i dont see how knowing what happens a head of time taking anything away from the show itself. you have to watch it to see it actually happen so dont get all pissy. oh and by the way ive been here since 02-04 so way before alot of people just dont remember my info to sign in. Because maybe people don't want to know? For example is it alright to go spoiling someones surprise birthday party? Once the details are revealed it takes away from the experience because you already know what's gonna happen, you may know not know everything down to the last detail but the surprise was lost and so was the anticipation.

[ProfessorChaos]

yeah wyld, you might be better off finding a new show, since rick is the primary protagonist of the comics and i doubt they're gonna change it that much. and after watching that a second time, i'm kinda miffed by close rick and shane were to the farm when the showdown happened. did that strike anyone else as odd?

[White_Zombie]

yeah wyld, you might be better off finding a new show, since rick is the primary protagonist of the comics and i doubt they're gonna change it that much. and after watching that a second time, i'm kinda miffed by close rick and shane were to the farm when the showdown happened. did that strike anyone else as odd? I noticed the same thing, they walked day through night in those woods just to be that close to the farm? Didn't make any damn sense.

[ProfessorChaos]

as soon as i'd typed that, i realized what shane may have been doing: he killed randall fairly close to the farm, so perhaps by taking rick to that field (assuming he knew the area), his plan to blame randall for rick's death would've seemed somewhat more believable to the rest of the group given the close proximity of rick and randall's bodies...well that's the best i can come up with at least. finale conjecture:   after a big assault on the farmhouse, and the arrival of a certain new character, rick reveals jenner's secret to the group. something along the lines of "jenner said transmission started off by bites, but had evolved to be airborne (hence all the dead bodies sitting in cars on the highway, they probably died before the thing went airborne) and we're all infected. we are the walking dead."

[Wyldwraith]

Agreed Professor, Just more sad than angry at the moment. The same sort of sad when Survival came along to trumpet the death of Romero's work. There'll never be another zombie-apocalypse-based TV show. If I'm anything besides sad it's frustrated, because continuity and out-of-plot logistical concerns made Shane's death into a tasteless joke. Worse, as I said, the oncoming swarm of Walkers will because of those same show logistics be unable to claim anyone of any significance. If the interpersonal reactions to the apocalypse lack an iota of realistic effect on the characters actions and thought-processes, and the chief danger of the show isn't allowed to be, well, DANGEROUS...what's that really leave? More cling-to-unrealistic, eminently idiotic, learning-nothing-from-their-experiences morality rhetoric? C'mon, Carl didn't even hesitate to gun down Walker-Shane an instant...and they just HAD to go all loving-conviction in his daddy's motives and not have Carl even consider that Rick mighta been the bad guy there. He did come upon him knife in hand over top of the body of his chief rival without a mark on him. Maybe my moral code is even further out-of-step with the average civilized 1st-worlder than I thought. Last note, I REALLY REALLY liked Rick for the first few episodes of Season 1. I even had really high hopes for him when the symbolism of him putting away his cop uniform came along. Hopes I had begun to, well, HOPE would be realized as he adamantly set out to correct his horrible mistake of saving Randall by executing him on his knees. Then...poof, all the shiny new toughness wiped out by Dale's death. I LITERALLY gagged when I first heard the line "From now on, we do it his (Dale's) way. That's how we honor him." Disaster drags people down. Every single time, and every single one if the disaster goes on more than a few weeks without help arriving to abate the effects of the disaster. We all joke about Khardis's extremism, but the reality of 30,000 years of human history is that the tougher times get the faster humanity IN ITS ENTIRETY swan-dives into the moral abyss. And that during disasters that the utter collapse of ALL civilization GLOBALLY + the reanimation of 99.9% of the population as cannibalistic ghouls makes look like a species-equivalent of a 24hr bug. Individual humans may rise above their base natures during disaster, but ONLY temporarily. The very people who risked their lives rescuing people from rooftops during Hurricane Katrina's aftermath would have KILLED AND EATEN the people they'd gone to so much trouble to save had the CDC found some sort of mutated highly infectious pathogen in the sewage-contaminated water everyone in the Wards had been exposed to and established a strict Quarantine Cordon surrounding New Orleans. Heroism, altruism, and modern morality in its entirety are like candle-flames. They'll burn for a long time, unless something comes along to disturb the air strongly enough and for long enough. Atavism is the UNIVERSAL human reaction to prolonged disaster/societal collapse. I just don't get the appeal of having the show's world-setting conspire to allow them to maintain such unrealistic cute and comfy moral stability.

[sandrock74]

Wyld, Rick wasn't fooled by Shane for an instant; he knew what was up. He wasn't attempting to "talk Shane down" or anything, Rick was setting him up for the kill. It was classic slieght of hand...he was keeping Shanes eyes on his gun in his outstretched hand, while slowly reaching for his knife behind him as he closed the distance between them. Rick is more on the ball then you want to admit. I don't know if you read the comic or not, but if you don't, you may be surprised at the decisions (and actions) Rick routinely makes beginning in the not too distant future. There is a certain someone looming in the future who really galvanizes Rick and colors his outlook on the reality they are now in. I'd encourage you to hang around a bit, because the poops about to hit the fan!

[Wyldwraith]

Maybe you're right. Just something of a unique experience for me. I've never identified with a character as strongly as I did Shane. Someone who, despite his faults is almost always reliable to those he cares for. Whose been crapped on by everyone after they were done using him, and who finally and completely detonated after insult was added to injury and the man who stole his life, role and dignity basically placed him in a "sit down and shut up" position like he was some sort of child. A man who would've been shot in his hospital bed but for Shane. So, since I've never really CARED cared about a TV character before, it's a bit of a bitter pill to swallow watching the man in every way inferior to him come out on top finally and definitively. It's funny in a way, as I've always poked fun at fanboys, yet here I find myself one...and fan of the big loser no less. Guess it says good things about the show's drama its events actually managed to upset me.

[kidgloves]

Nobody wants to be spoiled. What the hell is wrong with some people? Some moron kept posting multiple spoilers all over my youtube channel and i've had to set it to "approve comments". Dickheads. Anyway. Loved, loved, loved that episode. Was a bit strange them being that close to the farm but its needed for the setup. Noticed the walkers straight away. Very nice. How many kills in the cold opening? Even the idiots cant complain about the lack of zombies when they get that many so quickly. I don't think theyre going to end up at the next location for the finale. It will seem far too rushed. They need to have a bit of an on the road struggle to make it seem worthwhile. -- -------- Post added at 10:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 AM ---------- Wyld. You should definately hang on with this series. You, probably more than anyone else here, will appreciate where the show is going to go.

[krisvds]

[/COLOR]Wyld. You should definately hang on with this series. You, probably more than anyone else here, will appreciate where the show is going to go. Yep. That is if the show goes where we think it going to go, you might have to rethink your opinion on certain characters. Slowly but surely...

[bassman]

Great episode. Much like the previous episode, it was all spoiled because of some inconsiderate jerks, but I enjoyed it anyway. The wide shots of Rick and Shane with the moon in the background were awesome. Although it kinda reminded me of Survival. The huge shot of the walkers appearing through the trees was amazing, as well. Aces - now i'll never be able to watch that beat down scene without thinking of Office Space.

[Ultra Magnus]

Great episode! Finally T-Dog gets some camera time! He will play a huge role in the season 2 finale.

[Moon Knight]

I didn't think the show would have me care about Shane the way I did. When the show was first announced he was nothing more than cannon fodder just to get Rick over. However, in this world, he had a huge impact and people actually cared or hated him so much they liked him. Very good job by the writing team.

[Thorn]

@captain spoiler The spoilers need to stop, and "poking the bull" because that is what you do is unacceptable, it is all kinds of a macho statement but on the internet it is just trolling and the end result is you ruining the enjoyment of something people are passionately behind. It shouldn't be about banning or not banning you, and your concern about that it should be about your respect of other people and being a part of the community. We respect each other. You don't care, you want to know... awesome look it up enjoy it. I don't and appreciate our members who respect that and keep their spoilers to themselves so I can fully enjoy the dramatic punch of the series as intended by the writers. @Wyld. I didn't expect you to blow up, honestly I expect your reaction to be about what it is now. Thing is man, while you identified with Shane, and while your posts here seem really full of your typical downplay certain aspects and over look others (we all do it when we are making our points) Shane was insane the writers showed him going crazy over the course of the past two seasons bit by bit very well. To deny that is to close your eyes to reality. Saying Rick stole what Shane had.. his woman... his kid.. his leadership... Shane took ALL of that from Rick first, Rick took it back. You talk about morality, you think that is right just take what you want? Really? Rick's wife, and his kid? He should have come back and just let Shane have them? As far as leadership, people followed Rick WILLINGLY including Shane for a reason... he is a true leader. His decisions suck sometimes, and are grounded in morality. That bites him sometimes but you can't make people follow you unless you do so with fear, it is a choice. Rick came back his wife and child went to him, no RAN to him because he is theirs as much as they are his. YES Rick owes Shane and he thanked him for that, as did Lori. Shane also did a lot of wrong that resulted in the others treating him harshly and without kid gloves. AS SHOULD BE EXPECTED. I won't ask you to keep watching the show, that is on you but maybe watch it and take yourself out of the equation and just look at the characters. Perhaps you are TOO close to this for personal reasons ( a number of which have come out over the last 2 years) and ask yourself if you were Rick what would you do? Lori? Not just Shane. It strikes me as odd you are begging Rick to be more like Shane, saying how right Shane is, then when Rick pulls Shane in and uses slight of hand to get the drop on him and eliminates a threat to him, the group, and his family you downplay that... come on man The guy can't win with you, and I say that as a man who loathed Shane but STILL was able to identify with him on levels and still go against Rick on decisions. It is like blindly following one political party blind to the right and wrong done by both sides. You are I think too passionately involved and invested. Deep breaths, give credit where it is due. Rick eliminated a problem, a threat to his family, and his group. He just waited for there to be no choice. A good leader does not throw away resources until they no longer have value or go so far the other way they are dangerous. The scale tipped, Shane went bat shit crazy, killed a prisoner going against the wishes of the group, and set up a lie to cover himself, baited his friend, father of the woman he loved out into the woods with full intent to kill him. You still can side with that?

[AcesandEights]

with 2 main character's dead in as many weeks, logistics fairly demands the only people that could die in this imminent zombie-swarming are non-entities the likes of T-Dog at best, or Herschel and/or some of his nameless placeholder-people. Rooting for the Walkers feels rather futile when you know show logistics won't allow for a Rick or Lori killing. Eating T-Dog, or one of Herschel's people (or even Herschel, really) would have all the dramatic punch of watching credits roll. Really good point! Though I'm not rooting for Rick or Lori to die next episode, they'll be a bit hard pressed to shock us with fatalities for the season closer.