TWD 7x01 "The Day Will Come When You Won't" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[MinionZombie]

I thought the entire RV scene and the "get my ax" thing was goofy. I think they wanted to portray that Negan had total control of the situation but it didn't really work for me. There was just a little too much opportunity for things to go awry for Negan, or for Rick to do something unexpected. Did they think we wouldn't notice Glenn and Abraham at the picnic table? Insulting. 1) Rick had two choices - kill Negan, or don't kill Negan. That's it. If he killed Negan, what would he do then? He doesn't have an army at his disposal, Negan put a timer on when he would return (with a warning that if they don't return on time to kill them all), and if Rick returned with Negan dead what's he gonna do? Pop off a few shots busting out of the RV and lose several more of his family (or all of them) in the inevitable crossfire which would also kill him ... plus the Saviours would see it wasn't Negan at the wheel. Rick had absolutely no options - it was all about Negan's power trip, dangling it in front of Rick, tempting him to see if he'd be stupid enough to do it. 2) Erm, that was a fantasy - a dream of what could have been - we're inside Rick's head for a lot of this episode. We're seeing what he saw, and what he thinks could happen if he doesn't choose his actions very carefully (e.g. seeing all the others get battered). Abraham and Glenn both have their heads smashed to smithereens - there's no chance either could survive that beyond a few minutes and on a simple biological level. Glenn's convulsions were harrowing - his hands twitching, his final breaths etc. Glenn might have stood a chance after one single swing - if he'd had access to top tier medical treatment and years of therapy, he might come away with a semblance of who he once was ... but he was beaten repeatedly to a pulp, just like Abraham. And yeh, Andrew Lincoln (who's prone to a bit of overacting on the show, if I'm honest) was fantastic in this episode. He really looked like a broken man. That kind of thing is not easy to achieve. It takes some reaching to get to that level of utter despair convincingly. On another note: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment...n-council.html /\ I wish people like this would just fuck off. 1) That moment when Rick has finally broken - that hysteria Lincoln got himself into is crazy, that breathing ... the cast all did a wonderful job of going to a very dark place. It must have been extraordinarily draining to shoot all that stuff for eight days. 2) Yeah, whining losers like that should piss right off. They seemed to have forgotten this is The Walking Dead ... did they forget about the innumerable scenes of zombies eviscerating screaming human victims? How about Rick biting the throat out of Joe the Claimer? What about the season 5 premiere with geysers of blood bursting out of throats? Or any of the other harrowing scenes we've had? Hell, the first kill in the show is a little girl zombie - blasted right in the noggin. Bicycle Girl is one of the most grotesque visions we've seen, but there have been many horrific walkers on the show. The head-smashing was a notch or two above the usual level of violence on the show - compounded moreso by the bleak tone and sadistic attitude of Negan (e.g. the hatchet scene) - but these parents groups need to stop getting in the way of other people's grown up entertainment and do some parenting of their own snotty sprogs. Parental Guidance - the clue is in the terminology! I wouldn't be showing TWD to kids, personally. I'm always stunned when I see some parents bring their little 5-10 year old kids to Comic-Con in costume etc (for shows like TWD or Ash vs Evil Dead in particular), because the gore can be exceptional at times. It's weird though, because when it comes to swearing and especially sex, TWD is relatively mild on the lingo and all-but-non-existant on the flesh peddling. It's the violence that takes centre stage. ... I've seen a few people online whine about the violence (What show did they think they were watching? Did they forget they'd be seeing someone's head smashed in with a bat? Did they miss all the bat-based advertising? Are they certifiable morons?), but it's the same brand of bullshit we saw after that episode of Game of Thrones which featured Sansa's wedding night (ironically you saw very little on-screen in that instance), in that there's a lot of "waaaah, I'm not watching this anymore!" or "waaaah, it was too mean!" but they keep watching after they've calmed the fudge down. Nicotero responded to that sort of talk and said that it's good to react strongly - you've cared for these characters (i.e. the show makers have done their job correctly). If you didn't care they've not done their job correctly. But, also, I think a lot of this sort of PTC type talk is a load of hot air - a handful of complainers shouting very loudly because they're actually in the extreme minority. 7x01 marks the "Before Negan" and "After Negan" dividing line. It had to be shocking, but 7x01 is out of the ordinary, not the standard, in terms of violence and bleakness.

[UndeadHippo]

stray observation after a re-watch: Just before he gets pulped Abe shoots a glance and throws up the peace sign to Sasha, a final farewell. if this lump in my throat gets any bigger Rick'll get his hand stuck in it. :/

[Wyldwraith]

Yes, killing Neegan in the RV probably would've gotten a lot of people dead. What about when he shows up at Alexandria's gate knocking with his bat though? There seems to be this assumption of the Saviors being fanatically loyal to Neegan. Why is that? We haven't seen anything to indicate the Saviors are anymore devoted to Neegan than the minions of any of the other TWD villains were to their bosses. So far, the Governor remains the only villain with any exposition or visuals indicating actual loyalty that might persist after his demise. Isn't it reasonable to assume his man Simon would simply shrug and try to assume full control if Neegan bought it? Or that there'd be a multiple-way struggle for power between the most dominant subordinates of Neegan's in the wake of his death? Why isn't it just as likely that the Savior who ultimately assumed control of the warband post-Neegan would be indifferent at worst to his slayer(s), if not a wee bit grateful to them for landing him control of the Saviors? Incredibly sadistic men are NOT known for inspiring sincere loyalty and devotion in others. It's certain that Neegan has treated various Saviors in the same way he's treated Rick & Co. Why wouldn't said Saviors be nursing a hate for the man that as yet they've been unable, or lacked the nerve, to act on? It just seems to me that a lot of people who genuinely like Neegan as a villain accept his position of power as being greater than logic would lead one to conclude it actually is. In other words, a villain who tortures and executes as a default method of gaining vassals has tortured and/or executed many others in getting to his current position. Therefore, since torture and the execution of people others care about breeds hatred, isn't it far more likely he's so far managed to keep a lid on a bunch of people who'd like to do unto him as he did unto Abe and Glenn, rather than be some charismatic dictator ruling by the acclaim of the Saviors? If I'm wrong, what's the reasoning for believing otherwise?

[bassman]

Of course I'll have to reevaluate after some time has passed, but as of right now I'm placing this episode right next to Darabont's pilot as one of very, very few that I feel completely nail the world and tone of Kirkman's comic. Very few episodes make me feel the exact same way I did while reading the comic, but this one is now among those few...

[facestabber]

stray observation after a re-watch: Just before he gets pulped Abe shoots a glance and throws up the peace sign to Sasha, a final farewell. if this lump in my throat gets any bigger Rick'll get his hand stuck in it. :/ I noticed that. I feel horrible for TF. Wylde, I agree that Rick could have killed Negan in the RV. I hope Ricks hesitation to carry out the attack was him realizing that the rest of his family would be slaughtered. And if his hesitation was solely Negans one arm rifle sling, well I'm just gonna pretend it was the prior not the latter. Re killing Negan at the gate, I would assume that some of them will absolutely like to do that but they will contemplate this under the guise of cooperating. Negan has Daryl and that will hesitate this family. I'm guessing they will recon everything Savior before making that strike.

[MinionZombie]

As long as the Saviours have Daryl in their possession, Team Rick will bide their time. Daryl is their family, two seasons ago Rick called him his brother - the bond is strong - so they're not going to cast aside one of their own as if they're a piece of meat or a stranger. These people have lived together, survived together, lost loved ones together, fought side by side and succeeded together.

[babomb]

Yes, killing Neegan in the RV probably would've gotten a lot of people dead. What about when he shows up at Alexandria's gate knocking with his bat though? There seems to be this assumption of the Saviors being fanatically loyal to Neegan. Why is that? We haven't seen anything to indicate the Saviors are anymore devoted to Neegan than the minions of any of the other TWD villains were to their bosses. So far, the Governor remains the only villain with any exposition or visuals indicating actual loyalty that might persist after his demise. Isn't it reasonable to assume his man Simon would simply shrug and try to assume full control if Neegan bought it? Or that there'd be a multiple-way struggle for power between the most dominant subordinates of Neegan's in the wake of his death? Why isn't it just as likely that the Savior who ultimately assumed control of the warband post-Neegan would be indifferent at worst to his slayer(s), if not a wee bit grateful to them for landing him control of the Saviors? Incredibly sadistic men are NOT known for inspiring sincere loyalty and devotion in others. It's certain that Neegan has treated various Saviors in the same way he's treated Rick & Co. Why wouldn't said Saviors be nursing a hate for the man that as yet they've been unable, or lacked the nerve, to act on? It just seems to me that a lot of people who genuinely like Neegan as a villain accept his position of power as being greater than logic would lead one to conclude it actually is. In other words, a villain who tortures and executes as a default method of gaining vassals has tortured and/or executed many others in getting to his current position. Therefore, since torture and the execution of people others care about breeds hatred, isn't it far more likely he's so far managed to keep a lid on a bunch of people who'd like to do unto him as he did unto Abe and Glenn, rather than be some charismatic dictator ruling by the acclaim of the Saviors? If I'm wrong, what's the reasoning for believing otherwise? That's what I'm thinking too. We already know that there are Saviors that want to break free. We see the common folk kneel when he walks by. All he has is supremacy, which is fickle and fleeting by nature. I'm hoping for a proxy war between King Ezekiel and the Saviors. Something I wonder, Neegans operation is not new. It's well established. And he's everywhere, so he says. But he wasn't at Woodbury, no sign of him at the prison, he's not terrorizing Ezekiels domain. He wasn't anywhere around Terminus despite that they had signs everywhere and Dwight and a few saviors were all over the tracks. So it's either a major plot oversight by the writers or neegan over-estimates his reach. A plot hole like that isn't something you absorb into the narrative so it's gotta be the latter. You'd expect that Rick's group would be immediately planning the coup. Not giving a speech about how Neegan is now in charge. We'll have to wait and see.

[JDP]

That's what I'm thinking too. We already know that there are Saviors that want to break free. We see the common folk kneel when he walks by. All he has is supremacy, which is fickle and fleeting by nature. I'm hoping for a proxy war between King Ezekiel and the Saviors. We have only seen three people trying to leave the Saviors, and one of them is already back with them. There doesn't seem to be any high level of desertion among these people. If that was so, then we should expect to see much more of these defectors all over the place. This suggests that Negan's men feel powerful and secure being part of his racket. Something I wonder, Neegans operation is not new. It's well established. And he's everywhere, so he says. But he wasn't at Woodbury, no sign of him at the prison, he's not terrorizing Ezekiels domain. He wasn't anywhere around Terminus despite that they had signs everywhere and Dwight and a few saviors were all over the tracks. So it's either a major plot oversight by the writers or neegan over-estimates his reach. A plot hole like that isn't something you absorb into the narrative so it's gotta be the latter. You'd expect that Rick's group would be immediately planning the coup. Not giving a speech about how Neegan is now in charge. We'll have to wait and see. We don't know what territories was Negan "conquering" during those events. He and his men could have been elsewhere at the time those events happened and then gradually expanded their domain to the areas where Rick and the group now are. The claim that he is "everywhere" is obviously an exaggeration to intimidate others, but he is in the process of expanding his "empire" as much as possible.

[shootemindehead]

Woodbury is a good distance away at this stage though isn't it? A bigger worry plot hole wise is the fact that he's never been to Alexandria before. :/

[JDP]

I noticed that. I feel horrible for TF. Wylde, I agree that Rick could have killed Negan in the RV. I hope Ricks hesitation to carry out the attack was him realizing that the rest of his family would be slaughtered. And if his hesitation was solely Negans one arm rifle sling, well I'm just gonna pretend it was the prior not the latter. Re killing Negan at the gate, I would assume that some of them will absolutely like to do that but they will contemplate this under the guise of cooperating. Negan has Daryl and that will hesitate this family. I'm guessing they will recon everything Savior before making that strike. We can see that Rick slowly realized that killing Negan at that point would have been a big mistake. It would have ended up with the rest of the captives being executed. Notice that when Rick is fighting with the zombies outside the RV we get to see the "visions" that are going through his mind, of all members of the group getting their heads smashed with Negan's bat. Notice also that Negan told him things like "I want you to think about what happened, and what can STILL happen". The insinuation is very clear here: you kill me now and the rest of your captive friends are dead. Even before Negan shoves Rick inside the RV he also tells his men that "we'll be right back, maybe Rick will be with me, if not, well, we can just turn these people inside out". This command to his men obviously includes the following possible outcome of the situation: if Rick manages to kill me while I am with him in the RV, kill the rest of the group. This cockiness and excessive confidence in the power over others that having hostages can give you, by the way, sooner or later could be Negan's mistake. It's what makes this guy let his guard down. Apparently he even shows up in person at Alexandria to collect his "tribute" (that's what those brief sneak peeks of this season seem to suggest.) Showing up at your enemy's very doorstep? This is playing with fire here. The best thing the Alexandrians could do if they don't want to sacrifice Daryl is set a trap to capture Negan alive and use him and whatever other Saviors they manage to capture along with him as hostages themselves. Then negotiate an exchange of hostages to get Daryl back.

[sandrock74]

Woodbury and the prison are down in Georgia. Negan and Alexandria ( and the Hilltop, the Kingdom, etc.) are in Virginia, outside of Washington DC. Rick and the gang did LOTS of walking along the train tracks! Like, a couple of states worth of walking. Despite Negan's boasts, his level of power doesn't extend over several states. At best, just the region he is in...and even that is obviously not absolute, since they've only just discovered Alexandria and don't seemingly know of the Kingdom yet. The easy thing to do would be to just pack up and move away, somewhere beyond the sphere of influence of Negan. However, leaving people like him unchecked is a bad idea! He needs to be nipped in the bud and have his operation broken up before it could expand too much.

[MinionZombie]

Woodbury and the prison are down in Georgia. Negan and Alexandria ( and the Hilltop, the Kingdom, etc.) are in Virginia, outside of Washington DC. Rick and the gang did LOTS of walking along the train tracks! Like, a couple of states worth of walking. Despite Negan's boasts, his level of power doesn't extend over several states. At best, just the region he is in...and even that is obviously not absolute, since they've only just discovered Alexandria and don't seemingly know of the Kingdom yet. The easy thing to do would be to just pack up and move away, somewhere beyond the sphere of influence of Negan. However, leaving people like him unchecked is a bad idea! He needs to be nipped in the bud and have his operation broken up before it could expand too much. 1) Yep - different states - they still film the show in the same state, but the story is set in another state entirely. The Wolves were 50 miles or thereabouts away from Alexandria - so had absolutely no idea about the place until Aaron accidentally left his pack there at the arse end of season 5. Similarly, there's a good distance between some of these settlements. Mild Comics Spoilers, if you can even call it a spoiler.   In the comics the journeys between these communities is usually taken by horse, and the journey tends to last for several hours or even from dawn to dusk. Point being, there's a fair amount of distance between these locations, and from your own stronghold you've got 360 degrees of world out there to explore. 2) Easy thing? It wouldn't be easy at all - we saw just how hellishly hard it was out there for Rick and the gang between Season 2 and 3, then again after the fall of the prison, and then again in season 5 before Aaron found them. They were practically dead at that point. Likewise there'll be plenty of people in Alexandria who wouldn't want to go at all - are you going to, in all good conscience, leave them to deal with it? Team Rick might not be super tight with them, but they count them as friends now after the weeks/few months they have lived in Alexandria. Indeed, there's some there that have never been beyond their walls, so they'd be useless out there. Plus - what's to say you wouldn't encounter other groups just as bad, if not worse, than Negan's? Better to lay down roots, fortify, and deal with threats appropriately as-and-when they come. They're all going to have to take a bite out of the giant shit sandwich they've all been presented with, but turning tail ain't an option. Rick & Co said themselves, when they turned up at Alexandria - they'd almost been out there too long when they were found by Aaron. If there's nothing worth fighting for, what's the point in continuing to live in that hellish world?

[babomb]

1) If there's nothing worth fighting for, what's the point in continuing to live in that hellish world? You really don't have another option. Unless someone is the type that can off themselves. If anyone in the group was that type they wouldn't have made it this far though.

[Wyldwraith]

That's what I'm saying: You capture Neegan at the gates, and you cut bits off him every hour until they bring you Daryl. They give you Daryl, then you go on ahead with the cutting. You don't negotiate, you demand. The Saviors would panic watching you toss fingers off Alexandria's wall. This whole "Neegan's in charge" thing is ABSURD! Yes, I get Rick buckling DURING the whole Cut Carl's Arm Off thing. But people routinely bounce back from much worse. A man whose butchered his enemies without remorse isn't...shouldn't be, so easily cowed. It should be over almost before it began. A blip of tragedy that ends with a dramatic overestimation of his ability to control others by another in a long-line of would-be Post Apocalyptic Warlords. I literally could not believe my eyes when I saw that scene with Neegan showing up at the gate. I was like "Fuck me, he just put himself within reach of people who hate him." I mean you can't have it both ways. Either A) The Saviors are devoted enough to Neegan to react punitively to someone who killed him...in which case they're devoted enough to be held at bay by the threat of his murder by the people who are tossing bits of him to the Saviors until the Saviors meet their demands...or B) The Saviors AREN'T devoted to Neegan, in which case you can simply kill him at the gate and the Saviors will shrug and go on with things. Rick and Co. fucked up by going beyond their walls without extensive recon of their target. They paid for it...they should've learned. The reason I have so much trouble with all this capitulation is its such a terrible, unrealistic position in an Apocalypse. If sentiment will cloud your judgment enough to sacrifice the many for the one, do your loved ones a mercy and shoot them all now, because your sentiment WILL lead them to a much worse end. Ironically, Daryl is the very one that'd be telling Rick as much if he wasn't in a cage. Daryl would slap Rick silly for giving in to Neegan just to save Daryl's skin. FURTHERMORE: Even obeying Neegan for now is just a slow slide until the execution of Rick and Co. Neegan's demands are all about getting others to gather tribute for him. There is only so much to be salvaged a reasonable distance to travel from Alexandria. What do you think Neegan will do when the month INEVITABLY comes that Rick and Co. can't provide a satisfactory amount of scavenged goods for Neegan and the Saviors? Neegan won't go "Hmm, I understand salvaged goods have gotten too difficult to find. I guess I'll give you and yours a pass on providing for me and mine from now on." He'll assume they're holding out on him and start killing. So obedience leads to torture and death. That only leaves fight or flight. How is this not beyond obvious? Trying to spring Daryl is a lost cause. Bolt, or grab Neegan and start making demands. Pick one and go. Edit: And if you don't like that plan as-is: How about this? Torture the infrastructure info on the Saviors out of Neegan, and then tell his loyalists to start killing their own or Neegan gets the axe. It won't fly with the Saviors, but it'll cause more discord. The absence of police and penal institutions offers so many practical ways of dealing with one's adversaries so long as you have the stomach to leave people in bloody tatters.

[kidgloves]

Very satisfied with the deaths although I can't help but think how good last seasons finale would have been had it ended like this. Was about to throw a strop after Abe got it but when Negan twatted Glen out of the blue I punched the air. JDM is absolutely killing it as Negan. Fantastic