Kirkman has said in the past that he didn't realise in advance just how much of a pain in the ass cutting Rick's hand off in the comics would be - it affected everything thereafter - i.e. could Rick physically do something now? Plus it'd be a pain in the ass to work around a 'missing hand' in the show - the constant removal of a green sock around Lincoln's hand, or having to frame things carefully. Even with the loss of Hershel's leg eventually moved towards a 'prosthetic' leg which allowed the actor to just walk around on his own leg - albeit stiffly - without too much fancy FX work.
Rick's the main character, so I think cutting the hand off would be a significant headache production wise. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but it would be a pain. Perhaps it's just something to get people spooked ... and besides, yes, we've seen people cut with 'walker blood blades' before and survive just fine ... and, considering how much cardio Rick does in this episode running five sodding miles etc, you'd think the 'infection' (if there was to be such a thing in Rick's hand) would have spread beyond it by that point. When they cut Hershel's leg off it was within minutes of the bite. Rick's been out there for a while with that cut - an hour or so - and then even more, all while his heart is pumping hard and fast.
So I'd think it'd be a no to cutting the hand off - it just hinders him, kicks him when he's already down, makes him a little less capable to spite his heroics and going it alone earlier on.
As for the stairwell - I think there's much more junk piled up there than it might appear ... but, had I been there, I'd have said "more junk on the stairs!" just to make sure there was no confusion over the matter. Yes, you could try to climb all that stuff, but you'd still be stuck. If you pulled everything away the walkers could climb up after you - yes, you could fight them off, but they'd keep coming (even if they did crumple on the steps). Nicholas was trying to break through the fence to the left side but it wouldn't budge, and as for the fence at the end of the alleyway - it was covered with tarp, so they didn't see there were walkers back there under they started climbing it.
What we don't know - because we couldn't get a clear looksee - was how many walkers were on the other side of that fence. In production terms I'd think the majority of their players were on the camera side of the fence, so they threw up some old tarp to obscure the view beyond that fence. And, to be fair, when you're getting chased by that many walkers panic is going to set in - even for a seasoned professional walker killer like Glenn - he's in a town that he doesn't know, that he hasn't been able to map out from a safe place (e.g. the rooftops, a la his M.O. in season one when he didn supply runs), and his guide has crumbled like a house of cards in a stiff breeze. It was interesting that Nicotero (who played one of the walkers in that herd - right up close to the camera - was he the 'blue' one?) said how scary it is to face a herd of walker extras. There's the sheer force of them coming down on you, but also the noise they make. It's easy for us to be relatively calm watching it - but guaranteed that playground "I'm being chased so I'm gonna run" instinct kicks in big style.
Another moment I dug - when Rick gets the RV we see all those crushed walkers piled up at that corner - I loved that. It not only illustrates the mindless mentality of a walker herd, crushing their own without a care, but it also shows us the force of the herd.
Regarding Gimple's "version" of Glenn and what others have said within tags here (some comics referencing):
Yes! I think Maggie will be pregnant as well - I think she'll find out after discovering Glenn is dead and all the chaos has calmed down a bit, so it'll be a while before any such reveal happens, but it is a key part of her character's journey.
Last edited by MinionZombie; 27-Oct-2015 at 11:25 AM.
Lol the hate is real in this thread. I will never understand why people complain but still watch every week.
Hate? More annoyance I'd say!
The episode certainly annoyed me! Far too many typical Hollywood "people doing dumb things"... People doing their ankles in (to slow the group down), not looking around so getting bitten by ninja invisible zombies, wandering down dead ends more secure than a prison, hiding in buildings and waiting until the worse time to come out, and it being the only building in the world without a rear exit to use etc etc
And Jesus! Did that lorry horn noise carry a looong way
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more] -Carl Sagan
As for the stairwell - I think there's much more junk piled up there than it might appear ... but, had I been there, I'd have said "more junk on the stairs!" just to make sure there was no confusion over the matter. Yes, you could try to climb all that stuff, but you'd still be stuck. If you pulled everything away the walkers could climb up after you - yes, you could fight them off, but they'd keep coming (even if they did crumple on the steps). Nicholas was trying to break through the fence to the left side but it wouldn't budge, and as for the fence at the end of the alleyway - it was covered with tarp, so they didn't see there were walkers back there under they started climbing it.
What we don't know - because we couldn't get a clear looksee - was how many walkers were on the other side of that fence. In production terms I'd think the majority of their players were on the camera side of the fence, so they threw up some old tarp to obscure the view beyond that fence. And, to be fair, when you're getting chased by that many walkers panic is going to set in - even for a seasoned professional walker killer like Glenn - he's in a town that he doesn't know, that he hasn't been able to map out from a safe place (e.g. the rooftops, a la his M.O. in season one when he didn supply runs), and his guide has crumbled like a house of cards in a stiff breeze. It was interesting that Nicotero (who played one of the walkers in that herd - right up close to the camera - was he the 'blue' one?) said how scary it is to face a herd of walker extras. There's the sheer force of them coming down on you, but also the noise they make. It's easy for us to be relatively calm watching it - but guaranteed that playground "I'm being chased so I'm gonna run" instinct kicks in big style.
Look carefully at what is blocking that stairway. It's a mattress, some wooden pallets and some barrels. From one angle you can even see one corner where they could practically have crawled through the obstacles to get to the stairs. Not that difficult to just move them a bit and squeeze through, and even have time to put some of the stuff back to make it more difficult for the zombies to be able to follow you up the stairs.
Even if the zombies managed to get through the obstacles and start walking up the stairs you would have a better chance of holding them back than having to face the entire horde up front all at once (they tried that with guns and knives and they miserably failed. Too many of them coming at you from all directions! And the corpses of the ones that got killed did not slow down the ones coming behind either.) Once you have killed some zombies on the stairwell itself, their piling corpses will become yet another obstacle for them to get through, more stuff to slow them down. Their best chance of survival was that stairwell.
And of course, once you have climbed that stairwell the plan is not to remain idle either. While one person watches the zombies and takes appropriate action if any of them manage to go up the stairs the other one looks for any possible ways into the building.
Another thing: if they could have moved the dumpster closer to the blue building they actually could have attempted to climb to the roof (that wall was not very tall, the roof might be reached standing on the dumpster if they had been right next to the wall), but the dumpster looked too heavy for them to move it in time before the zombies reached them.
You've had time to carefully assess the situation. Glenn and whatshisface didn't and were in a panic. They couldn't "look carefully" at anything.
People make bad decisions when they're in a panic.
I've only seen the episode once and I thought that the stairs were blocked, go up over the fence and maybe skootch across the fence and try to scale the building.
Whatshisface deciding to end it all kind of put a lid on any further action though.
I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....
The episode certainly annoyed me! Far too many typical Hollywood "people doing dumb things"... People doing their ankles in (to slow the group down), not looking around so getting bitten by ninja invisible zombies, wandering down dead ends more secure than a prison, hiding in buildings and waiting until the worse time to come out, and it being the only building in the world without a rear exit to use etc etc
And Jesus! Did that lorry horn noise carry a looong way
Neil, I agree 100% with you. The Walking Dead is definitely guilty of typical Hollywood tropes like the ankle spraining and it's beyond frustrating at this point. Tara did it twice in the same season!
That said, the show also does so much that is great that it far outweighs the bad for me. Love the book. Love the show. Both has flaws, but it's truly something special for this zombie fan.
- - - Updated - - -
Originally Posted by shootemindehead
You've had time to carefully assess the situation. Glenn and whatshisface didn't and were in a panic. They couldn't "look carefully" at anything.
People make bad decisions when they're in a panic.
I've only seen the episode once and I thought that the stairs were blocked, go up over the fence and maybe skootch across the fence and try to scale the building.
Whatshisface deciding to end it all kind of put a lid on any further action though.
Nailed it. In the heat of the moment, and I'm talking a really REALLY horrific moment, I would like to see how the average person handles making such decisions in a timely and smart manner. Glenn was also relying on a petrified Nicholas and that was his mistake. He tried giving him a chance and it got him in a terrifying and seemingly no way out situation.
Last edited by Moon Knight; 27-Oct-2015 at 02:33 PM.
Reason: ;)
"That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."
You've had time to carefully assess the situation. Glenn and whatshisface didn't and were in a panic. They couldn't "look carefully" at anything.
People make bad decisions when they're in a panic.
I've only seen the episode once and I thought that the stairs were blocked, go up over the fence and maybe skootch across the fence and try to scale the building.
Whatshisface deciding to end it all kind of put a lid on any further action though.
The very first time I was watching that sequence I was already thinking "try to make it up the stairs!" It immediately looked like the quickest way out of the zombie horde's path. Certainly not that tall fence with barbed wire waiting at the end of the alley. Maybe it would not have occurred to an inexperienced guy like Nicholas, but to someone with experience getting out of tight situations like Glenn? It should have crossed his mind while he was going down the alley looking for possible exits before reaching that dead end.
I'm sure it crossed everyone's mind, that's why they shot the camera to that direction in the first place. But climbing the fence, putting it between you and the horde following you and getting away looked the better option than getting stuck on the roof of a building in the middle of a town that's going to be full of flesh eating ghouls.
It didn't look like there were any or many zombies in the other side of the fence and it was scalable. It's only when the decision was made for the fence that the danger from zombies on the other side became apparent and by then the zombies on Glenn's side had caught up pretty much and negated the stairs option.
In other words, they were pretty buggered.
I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....
First apologies for my absence, lifes short and im very busy.. i do still check in when i can!
Secondly, what a episode huh? Glenns dead for sure, even if Nicholas's body did "shield" him and thats what we saw getting torn to shreds, glenn is still pinned and surrounded by hundreds of walkers, for the show to maintain any credibility he must be dead.. i mean its not like he's tyreese or anything is it?
Thirdly, ricks hand.. we already know from TWD and FTWD that bites and blood contact do not cause infection, bites kill by bacteria or a unrelated infection to the resurrection.. everybody is already infected and to stop a bite from killing you it has to be amputated immediately, as in Herschel's case.. so if they were going to go with the rick losing his hand route, which they have already said they wont, then they have already left the amputation too long to prevent longterm damage.
I've read this thread but i havnt been following the previous ones so sorry if i raise anything thats already been said, but is anyone else thinking
could Negan be the leader of the Wolves instead of the saviours?
Nailed it. In the heat of the moment, and I'm talking a really REALLY horrific moment, I would like to see how the average person handles making such decisions in a timely and smart manner. Glenn was also relying on a petrified Nicholas and that was his mistake. He tried giving him a chance and it got him in a terrifying and seemingly no way out situation.
Originally Posted by shootemindehead
I'm sure it crossed everyone's mind, that's why they shot the camera to that direction in the first place. But climbing the fence, putting it between you and the horde following you and getting away looked the better option than getting stuck on the roof of a building in the middle of a town that's going to be full of flesh eating ghouls.
It didn't look like there were any or many zombies in the other side of the fence and it was scalable. It's only when the decision was made for the fence that the danger from zombies on the other side became apparent and by then the zombies on Glenn's side had caught up pretty much and negated the stairs option.
Agreed. We've all made terrible decisions in the heat of the moment - and hell, we've all made terrible decisions when there's been no need to rush and plenty of time to think about it.
Personally, seasoned survivor or not, when you quickly find your options of escape dwindling while a herd of walkers is coming at you, I'd start to panic, especially with dead weight holding you back.
...
I'm starting to become more convinced that Glenn might survive in tact somehow - however - if this transpires they'd better have a good explanation that really shows the practicalities of how he'd survive unscathed. Crazy things happen all the time - like the Russian guy who survived not one but two lorries crashing inches away from him in a petrol station, or the guy on a motorbike who crashed into the back of a car before doing a flying somersault and landing - ON HIS FEET - on top of the car he crashed into as it continued moving at speed.
Insane things happen in the real world ... sometimes there's dumb luck ... but I do hope that, if it transpires that Glenn makes it out alive and unscathed, that they stage it convincingly and in a way that actually makes sense.
Also - if Glenn was getting his guts torn out, surely he'd have been coughing up buckets of blood - but he isn't. So it's blatantly Nicholas' body lying on top of him.
Now, just thinking about it - can being scratched by a walker harm you in this universe? We know that being sliced by a blade with walker blood on it doesn't do shit as "we're all infected" ... we know that if you get bitten you're screwed (unless you can cut off a bitten limb quickly) ... but do we know if being scratched/gouged by a walker's hands has any deadly effects? I'd imagine not ... so perhaps Glenn gets clawed a bunch, but not actually bitten as all the chompers come down on Nicholas' body lying on top of Glenn (who could play possum beneath it - and benefit from some kind of distraction that draws the alleyway herd elsewhere).
Like I said - the practical mechanics on how such a survival would work have to be solid in order to be believed. If he does make it out alive then this has been an epic troll by Gimple, AMC, et al.
Tyreese got swamped by a shedload of walkers in season four - seemed to 'surely die' from being outnumbered - but survived to live another season's worth ... although he did have a hammer, a bunch of adrenaline, and a standing position to help him out.
Good points both ways regarding Glenn and Nicholas escape. Me personally I always think elevation when pondering the zombie apocalypse. I saw the stairs and would have found a way up them. It may not work but I would much rather have walkers funneled to me in a narrow corridor(think 300 Spartans) than from everywhere. Plus gravity would help fight off the far less coordinated walkers. But I can certainly acknowledge that had they taken that path and the door was locked/blockaded from the inside they are pretty much screwed. I would have to watch again to even see if it was possible to get to the roof from that upper landing. The roof would be survivable if patient.
I can certainly understand why they chose to stay on foot. And as alluded above they had a shot until they discovered the walkers on the other side of the fence. If I recall wasnt there concertina wire on top of the fence? If so that just adds to the difficulty of trying to climb and scale toward the building. The razors on that fence will shred you no doubt. Granted I would take my chances with the fence considering the alternative zombie buffet.
End of the day, they made a split second decision and it turned out to be wrong. Its just the bitch of the apocalypse.
Glenn shouldn't make it out this alive. So much forshadowing and careful planning just so they can pull off a stunt and troll people? What do they gain from something like that? I don't think Glenn is done at this point but like Minion said, he doesn't make it back to Alexandria alive. The show will lose too much credibility if they pull something stupid like that. I love this "death" because it shows anyone can die in any situation and in any moment. That's where the appeal lies. He survives this and continues his journey unscathed and they lose all of that. It becomes just another mainstream show. Let's hope they finish this story the right way.
Last edited by Moon Knight; 27-Oct-2015 at 06:25 PM.
Reason: Mobile phone
"That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."
Glenn shouldn't make it out this alive. Too much forshadowing and careful planning just so they can pull off a stunt and troll people? What do they gain from something like that? I don't think Glenn is done at this point but like Minion said, he doesn't make it back to Alexandria alive. The show will lose too much credibility if they pull something stupid like that. I love this "death" because it shows anyone can die in any situation in any moment. That's where the appeal lies. He survives this and continues his journey unscathed and they lose all of that. It becomes just another mainstream show. Let's hope they finish this story the right way.
I agree Moon. I liked Glenn. Honorable guy. But he needs to be dead. Something like that scene should not be survivable. With all those mouths munching, we should be left with two skeletons.
Yeh, Glenn needs to be dead. There'll be waaaay too much internet sharting going on if it turns out the producers have jipped the audience and he some how gets out alive 1930's 'Flash Gordon' serial style.
I've just watched the alleyway sequence again and there are a matter of a few seconds between the camera panning to show the blocked stairs and the guys finding out that there are more than two zombies on the other side of the fence. By the time they've seen that, the other zombie group are nearly upon them, so the stairs was kind of a no go anyway, because the zombies would have been on top of them before they moved the first palette. There's still the option to climb the fence and shimmy across onto the roof, but Nicky boy wasn't interested it seems.
Either way they're pretty screwed. They end up on the roof with a shedload of rotters down below. Unless Glenn can contact Rick and form some plan.
Nicholas does fall onto Glenn, so there's a chance that it's his guts getting munched and not Glenn. But even so, if Glenn survives, it'll be a real "fuck you" to the audience IMHO. Nobody would be getting out of that situation.
BTW, those stairs lead up to a blocked entrance.
Last edited by shootemindehead; 27-Oct-2015 at 08:02 PM.
Reason: .
I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....
I liked the 3-episode arc overall. It was gripping and intense. I hated seeing Glenn get taken out (assumedly) but it's good to see that the series holds nothing back.
The good...
- The overall atmosphere. Large numbers of walkers. Good desolation scenes outside Alexandria.
- The main characters are working together well (both Team Rick and Alexandria). The conflict that exists is believable and interesting.
- Morgan's development. I don't like Morgan right now for obvious reasons, but it's great watching his struggle.
- The Wolves attack was pretty cool, and wonderfully jarring in how it was filmed. Real edge-of-the-seat stuff.
- Carol's response/actions during the Wolves attack was inventive, badassed, good for her character and contributed to plot and character development across the board. I've been pretty burned out on Carol (a little too one-dimensional deceitful/cutthroat for me), so this was refreshing.
- I liked how Glenn's ongoing redemption of Nicholas turned into his own demise.
- Rick... in pretty much every sense. We finally have a good mix of badass Rick and protector Rick.
- Zombies... yeah, the series has finally made the zombies a believable threat.
The bad...
- The "zombie parade" plan is a fail from the start in my mind. That just seemed colosally stupid to me.
- The Wolves were/are stupid. The idea of that group surviving without guns, given their basic MO, is hard to swallow.
- The group running to Alexandria getting flanked, outrun, overrun, pinned down, ninja-bit and finally... trapped in an alley? By the splinter group of zombies they had a head-start over? It just doesn't make any logistical sense.
- Glenn looking down a wide-open street and going into a fenced in alley.
- Too much contrived discourse over who would or would not be left behind followed by people getting left behind.
And the Glenn demise...
- Hide in the goddam dumpster. Really, I'm the only one thinking that?
- Yes, my first thought was to climb up to the stairs.
Ultimately, I'm in the annoyed category. Just too many plot contrivances and wtf things going on. But... Daaaaaammmnnnn... it was a fun ride!
And Glenn better be dead! I'm already 8 of 12 steps through the grieving process!
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
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Originally Posted by Moon Knight
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