Great episode and I liked the ending, its an other one of those that will be even better when watched in a marathon but I thought it was a cool way to end it.
Enjoyed some aspects of the episode, but the psychic, over theatrical Saviors just ruined it for me...
Somehow:-
1) Knowing the scooby gangs every turn/move, even when on foot...
2) Surely the scooby gang realised given the impressive numbers of the Saviours, that their destination was therefore a waste? If they could afford that many men, and block a road with a mountain of trees, they could easily take over the town (Hilltop)!
3) Why risk the scooby gang getting away over and over, and not just take them hostage at the first road block with a hundred men popping out of the tree line?
Silly!
Anyway, otherwise a good season
And if the person who has died is...
Abraham, I'll be even more pissed at the writers! They seem to have broadcast it with their character build up of him!
ps: I love Morgan's ninja quiet horse arriving at that scene when he turned up to save Carol... Why not leave the horse around the corner?
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more] -Carl Sagan
Something else I wanted to point out - kudos to the cast in that final scene - they all brought their A-game. They looked absolutely sodding terrified/humiliated.
Originally Posted by Moon Knight
MZ is the voice of reason and the morale compass of our group.
I don't wanna be a moral compass - Dale and Hershel didn't fare too well!!! On the other hand, Glenn has Maggie...
Originally Posted by Moon Knight
I still think the show officially sold out. Definitely not excited for season 7; especially knowing how frustrating it's gonna be knowing we can expect more shenanigans like they pulled in season 6.
Glenn's fake out, Daryl's cliffhanger, the annoyance in how the mid season finale ended, all the CGI blood splatter on screen, the obnoxious "Into the Badlands" force feeding they did, and the Negan cliffhanger is the icing on the cake. I can see why so many people got turned off from this show. I'm still a supporter but highly frustrated as a loyal fan.
CGI blood splatter? I've not really noticed much - in fact, I was surprised at the lack of blood spraying out of that Saviour who was shot six times by Morgan. I didn't even notice he'd been hit until the shot to the neck and then head - the others were so subtle with hardly any blood spewing out. I was really surprised by that! Did they run out of time? Did they run out of squibs on set?
The "Into the Badlands" thing - I'd blame that entirely on AMC - nout to do with the TWD folks, but yes, AMC were highly obnoxious with that stunt (and their splitting up of FTWD: Flight 462 into sub-one-minute scraps tossed into TWD advert breaks was just the most idiotic idea - incidentally the whole thing is now online and runs about 15 minutes. It's alright, nothing special.)
The 'Dumpster Glenn' thing ... yes, it did rob us of the impact of that third episode (a true HOLY SHIT! moment), but then again I rather enjoyed seeing him get out of the scrape. They do need to shit or get off the pot regarding Glenn though. Either kill him or stop almost-killing-him. You've had your fun with that, let's move on, shall we?
Daryl's cliffhanger - that was okay by me, we only had to wait a week - although his fate, like everyone else's, ties into that feckin' cliffhanger!!!
Mid-season finale - yeah, it was a big old todger tease, but at least it was mid-season, and paid off 10 weeks later with an awesome episode. It made the most sense in terms of pacing and storytelling. Now ... the season finale cliffhanger? That makes no real sense storytelling wise IMHO. They've got a cogent enough argument, but I struggle to see how showing us who dies in 6x16 would affect any scrap of the story to be told in season 7.
Perhaps the backlash to this bad choice is Gimple's Rick-style lesson in humility?
Originally Posted by Neil
Enjoyed some aspects of the episode, but the psychic, over theatrical Saviors just ruined it for me...
Somehow:-
1) Knowing the scooby gangs every turn/move, even when on foot...
2) Surely the scooby gang realised given the impressive numbers of the Saviours, that their destination was therefore a waste? If they could afford that many men, and block a road with a mountain of trees, they could easily take over the town (Hilltop)!
3) Why risk the scooby gang getting away over and over, and not just take them hostage at the first road block with a hundred men popping out of the tree line?
Anyway, otherwise a good season
ps: I love Morgan's ninja quiet horse arriving at that scene when he turned up to save Carol... Why not leave the horse around the corner?
1) Well they know they're going to the Hilltop - where else would they be going in that neck of the woods - and there's only so many roads they can take. Clearly they had one blocked off long in advance - and I'd wager that The Saviours have pulled these sort of games with other groups somewhere out there. As for on-foot - I'd imagine they had people tracking them in the woods, and would have likely had walkie talkies to send messages to other people lying in wait down a particular route.
2) I don't quite understand your point here, but they desperately need to get to the Hilltop because of Maggie. They don't have a Doctor at Alexandria any more, and the Hilltop has someone who specialises in pregnancies. Without his help, Maggie will die. They absolutely must get to the Hilltop.
Also, like Negan said, it's not about taking over a place - it's about bringing them to heel and making them work for you. The threat of being taken over easily would be something to help keep them in-line.
3) The whole thing is a cat and mouse game. Rick & Co are the mouse. Notice how Rick et al are defiant at the beginning, but as every turn is cut off they lose more and more will to fight - they become more desperate - like an animal cornered. The whole ordeal is about humiliation, it's about The Saviours showing off their numbers and their capability. It's a show of force on Negan's part. They also herd them to a particular location and gather their forces en mass as the ultimate "bow to us" moment. As Negan said, it was quite an achievement - even a risk - for The Saviours to gather together as a group like that. I get the impression that these people are usually dotted around all over the place at various encampments as well as their main lair, so right now I'd imagine those outposts are either un-manned or just have one or two folks holding down the fort. There'll be people back at the main Saviour camp who aren't capable of fighting, too, I'd reckon - so this was Negan gathering all of his troops for one big show. They've never before faced this kind of resistance from anyone - and Team Rick have slaughtered a whole bunch of them - so they have to make a big show to humiliate a group who are hard to bring to heel.
4) Yes. Negan's ninja horse did piss me off - there was no real need for it. Just keep it out of shot. That sort of thing does irk me. Morgan saying "I found your horse" would still work just as well without it having arrived by silent teleport.
5) Yes, couple of mis-steps aside (and that bloody cliffhanger!) - it was a good season. The scale alone (e.g. 6x01, 6x09) was stunning.
Last edited by MinionZombie; 05-Apr-2016 at 10:51 AM.
Not a bad episode for the most part. Enjoyed Trevor and the lad that plays Negan and yes the main cast (Andrew Lincoln especially) looked utterly ruined. Very difficult to pull that kind of acting out of the bag.
BUT, that fu*king ending was a load of old pony. Dicking the audience around like that, doubley so after that Miracle of Glenn bullshit, is taking the piss.
I saw last night the some areas of the interwebzone are in complete meltdown, with people saying they're done with the show. I can sort of understand them, TBH.
Over all, a pretty meh series for me this year. The writing (which has always had very dodgy moments) needs to be upped considerably.
Plus, the buggering around with Carol's storyline was atrocious. The took one of the best characters in the show and turned her about face into a mewlng wretch, simply becasue of "plotting". Her freak out rings completely hollow and smacks of the writers running out of ideas for her character to have something to do. Likewise with the blahdy blah nonsense with Abe and Tasha. Eye rolling toss going on there.
As for who got Lucille'd, I'd say it's possibly the fat lad with the mullet. That strange interaction with him and Rick regarding the "bullet recipe" was an odd insertion. IIRC, that was a big deal in the comics, as it essentially gave Alexandria a bullet tree, so they'd have a chance against the Saviours. It seems to me that once that was out of the way, Eugene is largely redundant at this stage. Plus the "taking it like a champ" comment ties in with his new found "courage".
Bottom line is, though, is that the producers haven't decided themselves yet.
I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....
^ fat lad with the mullet. Lol. I hope Eugene isn't dead. Guy has just started getting a good story. Same with Abe minus the love crap. I'd like to see Abe kick some savior ass along side Rick. If I had to pick which one I preferred to die its Aaron and Sasha but that isn't a big enough impact. I prefer it be Glenn. Season 1 &2 Glenn were my favorite. I still like Glenn but I could handle his end. Then as much as I'd hate to say it, Daryl. Love Reedus but that's a monster impact and would allow other characters to grow.
I’d like to repeat that I loved the episode. The whole whistling and intimidation of Team Rick was tense as hell and really enjoyable to see unfold. I kind of wish Carol had been killed as that would have been a conclusive shock and we still have had too few losses to the long term players in Team Rick since the governor days.
With regards to who it is I have a theory….
that it has to be Abraham.
I don’t believe for one minute that Negan is the sort of character to beat a female character to death in cold blood. It wouldn’t do anything to intimidate Team Rick, and it appears from the whistling, roadblocks etc that the saviours are all about intimidation. So this excludes Maggie, Sasha, Rosita and Michonne.
If we take the view we were shown of Negan being from the actual eyes of the victim, there was no hair hanging down obscuring the view so this should rule out Rick, Glenn and Daryl. Carl only has one eye so the view would be different also, and Eugene had an eye closed. I realise this one could be oversight by the writers or omission of hair so as not to give a clue.
To further strengthen this I don’t think Negan would kill Carl, Eugene or Daryl because they are already weakened by injury so the impact would be lessened.
That leaves Abe and Aaron. The fact Negan said “Taking it like a champ” makes me think its Abe because the defiant look Abe gave him made him look like the strong link in a clearly scared Team Rick.
If its Rosita, Sasha, Eugene or Aaron that gets taken down I will be underwhelmed, because at the moment they are still red shirts. Daryl, Abe, Michonne or Glenn would be my preference.
2) I don't quite understand your point here, but they desperately need to get to the Hilltop because of Maggie. They don't have a Doctor at Alexandria any more, and the Hilltop has someone who specialises in pregnancies. Without his help, Maggie will die. They absolutely must get to the Hilltop.
If the Savours have so many men and resources and are as organised as they soon appeared to be - and clearly knew where the scooby gang were trying to get to - what was the point in trying to get there, given there was probably a hundred men at Hilltop waiting for them!? Seemed an illogical risk/move!?
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more] -Carl Sagan
Personally, if I were Rick, I'd have plowed thru the first "roadblock", as it was just a handful of guys. But, in the interests of keeping the (relative) peace, I'd have simply ordered the gang back to Alexandria. It was apparent from early on it was a game of cat and mouse, so I would have taken myself out of the equation. Go back to my fortified home, hunker down and wait. Granted, Maggie would have most likely been lost, but the needs of the many...
Besides, waiting at home throws the Saviors off their game and puts the ball back in their court. Make them come to you. Negan already tipped his hand about not wanting them dead; he wants them to work for him. Make him rethink his strategy.
Every new road they tried to take to the Hilltop made me keep shaking my head. They willingly strolled right into Negan's game.
MZ- The cgi blood splatter I was referring to was done four times in the back half. When Rosita shot down a Savior in the head during the compound raid; his brains hit the screen. When Maggie crushed Moll's head during their escape; blood hit the screen for a second time. When Dwight shot Daryl you would have thought his brains were blown out with the amount of blood that hit the screen for a third time. Finally, when Negan kills someone with Lucille; blood trickles down the screen in a cartoonish way. One time- I can deal with but four times during the last five episodes is a bit too much and feels really gimmicky.
Also, with all that blood splattered you would have thought Daryl would have been in pretty rough shape, he looked fine to me. That cliffhanger didn't play into anything and was unnecessary.
In fairness, the episode was great until the very end. It definitely sucked the air out of the room of my viewing party.
As far as Negan killing women-
Im pretty sure he killed Holly in the comics, a death I'm sure will now go to Tara.
Last edited by Moon Knight; 05-Apr-2016 at 03:52 PM.
Reason: Nope
"That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."
I saw last night the some areas of the interwebzone are in complete meltdown, with people saying they're done with the show. I can sort of understand them, TBH.
Plus, the buggering around with Carol's storyline was atrocious. The took one of the best characters in the show and turned her about face into a mewlng wretch, simply becasue of "plotting". Her freak out rings completely hollow and smacks of the writers running out of ideas for her character to have something to do.
1) People that say they're done with the show were either never really into the show in the first place, or are tossing their toys out of their pram. The same wailing happened after Sansa's wedding night on Game of Thrones. A lot of flapped gums, and then cooler heads prevail. The Internet is always full of immediate rage and not enough reflection.
2) Hollow? I think it's working well. She's come full circle in some ways, and it's all about the cost to her soul. These things she has done - killing Karen and David was the first major step, and the really huge step was having to put down Lizzy. She had to execute a child whom she had grown to love and was almost at the point of essentially calling her her own - and she had to execute her ... that's some pretty messed up stuff right there. She's had to kill a lot of people, many deserved it, others not so much. It's a heavy burden to carry. Out in the wilderness it was just survival mode, but now in Alexandria where people are living (relatively) normal lives, the contrast has never been more stark to her. The interaction with Morgan - who had chosen the complete opposite path to her - threw even more light onto her actions. Frankly, just having her be a badass with no after effects would be boring and cartoonish.
Originally Posted by DayoftheZ
I’d like to repeat that I loved the episode. The whole whistling and intimidation of Team Rick was tense as hell and really enjoyable to see unfold. I kind of wish Carol had been killed as that would have been a conclusive shock and we still have had too few losses to the long term players in Team Rick since the governor days.
With regards to who it is I have a theory….
that it has to be Abraham.
I don’t believe for one minute that Negan is the sort of character to beat a female character to death in cold blood. It wouldn’t do anything to intimidate Team Rick, and it appears from the whistling, roadblocks etc that the saviours are all about intimidation. So this excludes Maggie, Sasha, Rosita and Michonne.
If we take the view we were shown of Negan being from the actual eyes of the victim, there was no hair hanging down obscuring the view so this should rule out Rick, Glenn and Daryl. Carl only has one eye so the view would be different also, and Eugene had an eye closed. I realise this one could be oversight by the writers or omission of hair so as not to give a clue.
To further strengthen this I don’t think Negan would kill Carl, Eugene or Daryl because they are already weakened by injury so the impact would be lessened.
That leaves Abe and Aaron. The fact Negan said “Taking it like a champ” makes me think its Abe because the defiant look Abe gave him made him look like the strong link in a clearly scared Team Rick.
If its Rosita, Sasha, Eugene or Aaron that gets taken down I will be underwhelmed, because at the moment they are still red shirts. Daryl, Abe, Michonne or Glenn would be my preference.
I agree. The whistling/intimidation stuff was chilling!
Also agreed with your spoiler tagged theory.
I, too, question whether Negan would kill one of the women in the group, and I'd also question whether he'd kill someone who was already injured. Abraham was the only one who really squared up to him - gave him a real mean look - everyone else's heads were bowed, Abraham squared up and stared right at him. That marks him as a target for Lucille, unfortunately.
While I don't want to see anyone go, I would be fine with Glenn going as that's what happened in the comics and I've been ready for it. I wonder if Negan might not kill Glenn though. When he had Glenn put back in-line after he threatened Maggie, it seemed as if Negan had crossed off Glenn in his mind as someone to kill ... ... might he kill Maggie? Her condition, presuming he won't kill someone in bad shape, would say no to this.
Yeah ... from what we've got to go on, it seems most likely to be Abraham - or perhaps Daryl - but Daryl's wounded condition would excuse him, if that theory holds true.
Originally Posted by Neil
If the Savours have so many men and resources and are as organised as they soon appeared to be - and clearly knew where the scooby gang were trying to get to - what was the point in trying to get there, given there was probably a hundred men at Hilltop waiting for them!? Seemed an illogical risk/move!?
I don't think the Saviours were ever going to go to the Hilltop. They were just blocking the way and herding them where they wanted them ... although that where was likely partly improvised. I don't think they had a specific area planned out, they just found an appropriate area depending on which routes Team Rick took in which order. Like I say, they absolutely had to get to the Hilltop because of Maggie's condition.
Originally Posted by shootemindehead
I think it would have been better to simply follow the comic story closer.
Have Negan and gang turn up at Alexandria and beat the turf out of Glenn, or whoever.
Erm, are you sure that's how it went? I've not checked myself, but I remember it going a bit different to you:
Glenn and Maggie had decided to leave Alexandria and set up shop at the Hilltop with their impending child. They were planning to go on a later convoy to the Hilltop, but at the last minute decided to go sooner - it was on the road that Negan stopped them, and then killed Glenn.
Originally Posted by Moon Knight
MZ- The cgi blood splatter I was referring to was done four times in the back half. When Rosita shot down a Savior in the head during the compound raid; his brains hit the screen. When Maggie crushed Moll's head during their escape; blood hit the screen for a second time. When Dwight shot Daryl you would have thought his brains were blown out with the amount of blood that hit the screen for a third time. Finally, when Negan kills someone with Lucille; blood trickles down the screen in a cartoonish way. One time- I can deal with but four times during the last five episodes is a bit too much and feels really gimmicky.
Also, with all that blood splattered you would have thought Daryl would have been in pretty rough shape, he looked fine to me. That cliffhanger didn't play into anything and was unnecessary.
Hmm, I see what you mean. I didn't mind it myself, though, but yes - restraint on the gimmick would be advisable.
Daryl looked pretty rough to me - pale and sweaty and weak. Maggie looked in worse condition, mind.
obviously they wanted to keep the victim secret. as was mentioned previously, with the amount of press attention the show gets, the only other way to do this would be shoot multiple deaths and insert the real one at the last minute...
except, each "death" would require a ton of effects work, cast head moulds practical puppets, resetting between takes would take an age etc. this would all be expensive and time consuming, and then mostly be discarded and pointless, all to conceal a 15 second or so sequence. it would have been a monumental waste of time and effort.
with that in mind i think this was the only way to maintain the mystery.
my theory as to who it was:
Carl - obviously not. else the line about his eye is meaningless
Rick - Definitely not
Maggie/Daryl - no, already injured, not a demonstration of strength
Sasha/Michonne - Women. spared for the same reason
Glenn/Eugene - Likely, but probably not Glenn has become a bit of a non-entity since his "death" earlier in the season and Eugene still has a story to tell
The other guy whose name i can't remember, Aaron?- what would be the point? he's mostly background scenery and little more than a redshirt
Abraham - My bet's are on Abe. he's had a big build up the past few weeks, been a great character, then this week has his "hopeful looking forward to the future" moment (which is always fatal on TWD) with Sasha, and a "final farewell" to the other character he's had most interaction with: Eugene. His manner was defiant and oozed confidence (which would make for a good demonstration) as well as being an obvious "alpha male" figure within the group. to me, at least, it's pretty cut and dried. which is a shame. i like Abe, and i hope Cudlitz gets the recognition he deserves.
Abraham the crossbow death just to kill him with Lucille. I feel like they telegraphed Abe to ensure people are actually shocked when they stay true to the comics and merk the pizza delivery boy.
The POV shown throughout the episode also points towards one of the 4 hostages - Glenn, Daryl, Rosita, or Michonne. I wouldn't have minded if they went with Daryl, but if they were gonna do that it 100% should have been shown last night. The buzz created with all the speculation leading up to Season 7 will be consistent, no doubt, but if Daryl had had his brains bashed in to end the season it would have caused an uproar. People that say they'd riot if Daryl died would be burning down hospitals if he was revealed dead at the start of the next season, way too anti-climatic for his character. Michonne would be another choice, but I think that's a waste - she has more story to go. And Rick losing another lover would be kind of shallow so soon after whatsherface. As for Rosita, she just doesn't have enough weight as a character to provide even a fraction of the necessary shock and trauma required for Lucille's first victim. And Negan would be a fool to mess up her pretty face, Rosita is gorgeous. Glenn is the best choice. It would have the most weight.
As long as they don't choose Daryl, I can live with the cliffhanger. If they do go with Daryl, it was a severe miscalculation not SHOWING IT THEN because that would have more buzz than it being an anti-climatic cliffhanger reveal. That's their biggest character right there.
Last edited by MinionZombie; 05-Apr-2016 at 06:21 PM.
Reason: Spoiler Tags added.
They better not have spared Abraham the crossbow death just to kill him with Lucille. I feel like they telegraphed Abe to ensure people are actually shocked when they stay true to the comics and merk the pizza delivery boy.
The POV shown throughout the episode also points towards one of the 4 hostages - Glenn, Daryl, Rosita, or Michonne. I wouldn't have minded if they went with Daryl, but if they were gonna do that it 100% should have been shown last night. The buzz created with all the speculation leading up to Season 7 will be consistent, no doubt, but if Daryl had had his brains bashed in to end the season it would have caused an uproar. People that say they'd riot if Daryl died would be burning down hospitals if he was revealed dead at the start of the next season, way too anti-climatic for his character. Michonne would be another choice, but I think that's a waste - she has more story to go. And Rick losing another lover would be kind of shallow so soon after whatsherface. As for Rosita, she just doesn't have enough weight as a character to provide even a fraction of the necessary shock and trauma required for Lucille's first victim. And Negan would be a fool to mess up her pretty face, Rosita is gorgeous. Glenn is the best choice. It would have the most weight.
As long as they don't choose Daryl, I can live with the cliffhanger. If they do go with Daryl, it was a severe miscalculation not SHOWING IT THEN because that would have more buzz than it being an anti-climatic cliffhanger reveal. That's their biggest character right there.
Im gonna play devils advocate here regarding Daryl. AMC are aware of his star power and I have been told first hand by woman I know will quit watching if he dies. Like you said, the impact would be less if they revealed daryls death in 07-01. If they showed it last night fans may very well just quit the show and not come back. So by waiting and then delivering a chilling reveal in 07-01 and a great episode they may stick around. Also I'm not convinced the con jobs at AMC are completely concrete who it will be. What if they are waiting to see Norman's draw and ratings for his own show. If that show works on its own maybe they will choose his death via Lucille. I agree Daryls death would be less impactful but that may be the reason they choose him. Plus they shed the label of fearing to kill big names by offing the biggest character
That being said I think its Abe or Glenn followed by Daryl.
Admittedly I'm not as mad as yesterday but I still think they dropped the ball with that ending.
I went ahead and researched a bit more of that scene. I was wrong about Daryl, he did look hurt and out of it. I stand corrected.
I think some of you might be forgetting that Negan played it by chance; his victim was chosen at random, so it didn't really matter if the person was injured or not. At least that how I always imagined it when I read the book.
The episode started with someone's POV and it also ended with that same POV. It wasn't a coincidence that the finale was bookended that way. So, yeah, that leaves Daryl, Michonne, Glenn, and Rosita. If you also read Negan's body language as he's stating "...feed the other eye to his father.", all signs point he's speaking to his right; so his victim is on the left side.
The clues are all there.
"That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
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Originally Posted by Moon Knight
On the other hand, Glenn has Maggie... 
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