 Originally Posted by shootemindehead
The quote from Jefferson is his own take. Nowhere in the actual amendment does it suggest that a "tyrannical government" was the reason for an armed populace.
It states, however, very clearly that in terms of a militia, the population's right to bear shall not be infringed. The reasons for which, was because of the military situation prevailing at the time. IE, there wasn't one. The US didn't have a regular standing army and was likely not to have one capable of fending off outside influence for some time.
You are really reaching here shootem. You're reinterpreting the words of the founders to support your argument. The fact of the matter is that a centralized federal government is exactly what the founders sought to prevent by giving the people inalienable rights. Jeffersons words were not just an opinion, these are the ideals that the bill of rights was written in the spirit of. They are the very ideas that inspired the bill of rights to begin with. The biggest threat to the American way of life, in the minds of the founders, was not outside influence. Outside influence was just an inevitable annoyance on the road of nation building. And it still is today, as can be seen time and again. The biggest threat to liberty was held to be influence from within, in the form of a tyrannical federal government that seeks to limit the rights of the people for it's own purposes. This is exactly why the bill of rights was instituted, giving inalienable rights to THE PEOPLE, and restricting the rights of the state to those specifically granted. The people reserve all rights not specifically granted, the state is limited to ONLY the rights that are specifically granted.
This was meant to be a nation of the people, by the people, and for the people. Like Sammich says, we are not subjects that are granted privileges by the state, we are citizens that hold inalienable rights. Of which the founders used very specific and clear language to outline. This has been supported time after time by the supreme court, and they have found EVERY TIME that the 2nd ammendment is an inalienable right granted to THE PEOPLE.
Your far reaching conclusions on this are the result of your inability to accept that you are just plain wrong about this. Your argument has been proposed by others, and every time it's shot down because it's wrong. Plain and simple.
Originally Posted by shootemindehead
In addition the idea that an armed population could fend off America's trained military for even a short space of time is ridiculous. Any kind of resistance would be quashed in the blink of an eye.
And this!? This is not only the result of a defeatist attitude, but has also been proven wrong time after time throughout history.
The Vietnam war, The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, most recently, The US War In Iraq.
Which isn't even the most important aspect of why this statement is itself ridiculous. The fact is that this is merely the opinion of 1 man, you. And you reiterate this as if it's some sort of indisputable fact that has or should have some sort of legal bearing on the peoples right to bear arms. As if to say, even if all your other arguments against the right to bear hold no water whatsoever, and if it's proven that this is in fact what the founders intended with the 2nd amm, that citizens prepared to fight to protect their rights could never oppose the US Military, therefore the intended purpose of the 2nd amm is a moot point and should be disregarded as such. That is the most ludicrous argument against the peoples right to bear that has ever been spouted! It's as volatile as a fart in a hurricane.
So I ask, what are your motivations for being so against the peoples right to bear that you're willing to use such obviously empty and erroneous arguments?
Are you so impressed with your own ideas and opinions that you just don't see how vacuous they are?
You've said in other discussions that you have no ignorance where the US is concerned. Well, based on this thread alone you are ignorant to the concepts this country was built on, you're ignorant to the ways of the state, you're ignorant to what's in the minds of the people, and ignorant to the nature and capabilities of the US military.
And this is not the ignorance of a stupid man unable to understand these things. This is a willful ignorance.
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