The Washington Bunkers

[krakenslayer]

Sorry kraken, but I can't agree with that. Who would take their "last, best hope", and dump them in a bunker in another state, effectively well behind enemy lines and with limited communications ability? Strategically, thats a horrible move. Taking your "best scientific team (and last remaining hope)" WITH you is the safest move. I don't think Logan, Sarah and the rest were considered anywhere near top tier in the governments eyes. I think they were one of several teams that were dropped in areas that were already stocked with supplies and deemed reasonably safe. Thats all. If they were the best, they would have been holed up in NORAD or something, not out in the sticks. Whatever, maybe they weren't important, maybe there were numerous scientific installations around the country ("there must be other groups like us"). My central point remains the same though - in my opinion, they were not sent to that bunker until well into the outbreak.

[Thorn]

Well, I sort of agree, sort of disagree. No, I don't think Day took place after Land, but I do think it took place about three years after the initial outbreak, with Land happening a long time after that. Rhodes does look impeccable, but I'd say that's due to his control-freak, disciplinarian nature. That or the fact it was a movie and you need to suspend your disbelief. Not directed at you but anyone who can accept the fact that a world is being ravaged by the living dead but not the fact that one of the actors had hair jel really needs to stop and consider things a little more closely. Doesn't matter what the Day script says, since that movie never saw the light of day. What appeared on the screen is a completely different movie. And Land was written based on what happened in Day of the Dead, not on what happened in a script that was never shot. While I agree with this in part it certainly does show his intention for the film around the time he was writing it, he was preparing a film Called Day of the Dead to be released, he wrote it and the setting of that film was 5 years after Night. MANY of the details from that script found their way into the final version of Day. I do not find it so hard to imagine that the number of years post outbreak would be retained along with some of of the other details such as character names. In fact seems just as easy to assume it to be true as not. Still haven't explained how you think they didn't burn through their fuel in 3 years. The power would have been off for months/years by the time the movie started, if they'd been there that long. Also, the limited alcohol these people brought with them wouldn't last 3 years. And where did Rhodes keep getting his hair gel from? Don't try to tell me the military keeps a 3-year supply of it at all research installations. And then we have the zombies "more and more every day". For there to be years' worth, there'd have to be a million-ghoul ocean pushing on that chainlink. That fence would have come down long before then. Well, have you seen the place? Based on script alone it was massive it was prepared with a large amount of EVERYTHING. This was a government effort to complete a task. The support was provided to make that happen they had a facility costing millions/billions of dollars I do not think that having fuel to last them a good long while being included as part of that sweet set up is so far beyond the realm of belief. beyond that foraging and scrounging could be happening off camera. Who is to say? It was also a remote facility, so for "more and more every day" to show up it might be one or two. It might also be a human being exaggerating the facts which is standard for most people. They also might clean them out, or they might lose interest and wander off. In fact they might not need come to the surface until the on camera time starts thus showing And again... hair jel that's what you are basing this on? Actors tend to have make up artists, hair dressers and people doing their wardrobe. You don't know if the actor had other commitments that made it hard/impossible for him to accept the growth of a beard and this could have been negotiated into his contract. Or George might have been separating him from the troops showing his controlling nature. ...and so forth. Day didn't take place very far into the outbreak. This is a matter of opinion, and one you are welcome to. It certainly isn't fact. In any event, both the fuel and the hairstyles are easily explained by the "things you have to suspend your disbelief about" common in most movies. How many times have you seen a guy fire dozens of rounds without reloading? How many times have you seen a girl wake up in bed, and she looks perfect...perfect makeup, perfect hair, no crust in her eyes? This is exactly what I was trying to say. It is Hollywood, boobs are big, hair is perfect, clothing wrinkle free, and men can take off their helmets on mars... and reach mars even! If they want it to be, it is. It does not need to make sense. The main quote people usually use to rebut my idea is the guy in the garage telling Riley that it has been "three years since any car drove out of here." Without starting a rehash of a very long thread, suffice it to say that it is not a far stretch to assume that no car had driven out of that piece of shit "garage" for some time before the outbreak. Add that time to the amount of time since the outbreak = three years. Even if it was 3 years, that gives no indication one way or the other as to when the events in Day take place. While an interesting argument for people to make, it doesn't really mean much to me. In fact Kauffman could have just basically restricted the use of cars, cars might have been seized for parts, gasoline may have been too costly or precious for there to be many of them worked on in the slum areas of Kauffman's city. You can explain this a number of ways. I do not think this in any way helps establish a time line other than to say Land clearly takes place at LEAST 3 years post outbreak. (or the events in Night) Seeing as GAR did not take a lot of care with these types of elements, I can only look at the movies themselves for evidence of how far into the outbreak they are set. The tone of Day is dark and bleak. No living being can be found for 100 miles in each direction. In Land, there are people all over the place, eating hot dogs in the street, and going to live "zombie fights" in clubs. We are talking about two isolated areas, and what is known in each of them. In the green you see a club and a fight pit and prostitution by design and by the nature of where the setting for the film is. There is none of that in Day because in that film they are in a military instillation. More over if anything I think you need to look at the situation, in Day there is a semblance of military control, and government organization still hanging on. IN LAND there is no military, there is no government lab or effort to control the situation or reverse it. What you see is people with weapons fully under Kauffman's control. His own personal army. Not a branch of the military holding onto ranks, and assignments. They have long since thrown those away. In Day, no one seems particularly surprised, upset, etc. that Major Cooper has died. It appears they are all immune to past emotions. Discipline has broken down to where soldiers are growing marijuana right out in the open. How likely is that if you still had an expectation of things returning to normal? I think growing immune to death occurs pretty fast, sadly faster than you might think. My wife ex wife works in the emergency room. People die there every night. EVERY night. She used to get sad, feel for them. Feel badly for the families. If you do not turn that off you won't survive. You have to allow yourself to feel enough to be empathetic but not so much it eats you alive. Death is part of life, and when it is part of your job you need to keep yourself together by keeping some distance from the emotions so you are ready to jump in and help. As for the drugs, there was much worse than that going on in Vietnam right in front of the officers who were there. That is fairly well documented I am sure you will agree, and those boys all knew they would be going back to a "normal" society.

[Trin]

We know that the city in Land was held, not retaken. Slack confirms this. Riley - "How long since you been out here?" Slack - "Never been out. Lived in the city since... it was a regular city." Day simply could not have been years into it. The state of their research is evidence of that. They were still doing basic research. Defining the problem. That could not possibly have taken years. The state of their supplies suggests the same. We know they aren't scavenging for supplies. They're running low on liquor. I don't believe for a second that a hastily cobbled together military research facility that cannot do better than a WWII radio has tons of food, ammo, medicine, and gasoline. That just doesn't make sense. The state of the coastline suggests a shorter period too. There are still rows of boats in the marinas. After years of Florida weather? Not!! And the mental state. In Day they were still trying to solve the problem. They still believed that they could find a cure or a solution. They still believed someone would come looking for them. It was a denial stage. They were cracking from the strain that they were too late, they were low on supplies, and they were running out of time. That's not the kind of mental state that exists after living with things for an extended period. I put Day at 8-10 months into it. Land quite clearly must've been long after the zombies took over. The zombies don't much come around the Green anymore. They gave up. The city had reached a state of self-sufficiency. They had dependable power (enough so to make electric fences an option). They had the means to feed and support the population. They had developed routines, work/life balance, etc. Oh, and they had Dead Reckoning, which in a post-zombie world was quite a feat of engineering. The mental state in Land suggests the people have accepted the world around them. They're desensitized to the zombies to the point they can take photos with them as a sideshow attraction. They'd long since given up on the world going to back to how it was. They were resigned to the new one. This is NOT the kind of mental state that people arrive at quickly. And it is further - much further - down the path of dealing with a crisis than what we saw in Day. Land is a minimum of 3 years into it. Probably longer. If you really look at the mental state in Day you see that the 3 survivors are moving from their state of denial to a new state of acceptance. They decided to move on and try to carve out existence in the world such as it is. They were moving toward the eventual mental state of what we saw in Land.

[SRP76]

He was on the island for 4 or 5 years and he looked like a stereotypical hermit and/or a member of ZZ Top. 'Cause every girl's crazy 'bout a Fed-Ex man.

[Philly_SWAT]

While an interesting argument for people to make, it doesn't really mean much to me. In fact Kauffman could have just basically restricted the use of cars, cars might have been seized for parts, gasoline may have been too costly or precious for there to be many of them worked on in the slum areas of Kauffman's city. You can explain this a number of ways. I do not think this in any way helps establish a time line other than to say Land clearly takes place at LEAST 3 years post outbreak. (or the events in Night) I guess we agree that the "3 years" line doesnt mean much. However, I disagree with your assessment that it CLEARLY indicates that Land takes place at least 3 years post outbreak. While it is certainly possible and logical, it is just as possible logical, that the beat-up shitty area they were calling a "garage" had went some time PRE outbreak without cars going in and out. If it is indeed not long after the outbreak, as I am suggesting, and people are fooling themselves into thinking things are normal, then a guy would knew no cars had left, say for 1 1/2 years prior to the outbreak, and they were 1 1/2 years into the outbreak, then it makes sense he would say "its been 3 years since...". I do not suggest that it CLEARLY indicates what I am saying is fact, just that it is just as possible and logical as the points you make. We are talking about two isolated areas, and what is known in each of them. In the green you see a club and a fight pit and prostitution by design and by the nature of where the setting for the film is. There is none of that in Day because in that film they are in a military instillation. More over if anything I think you need to look at the situation, in Day there is a semblance of military control, and government organization still hanging on. I say that the only semblance of military control is among the soldiers choosing to still follow a chain of command that existed pre-outbreak. As you can see, there was no love lost for Major Cooper being dead. The civilians had no choice but to recognize their authority (guns and numbers tend to make that true). Government organization does not seem to be hanging on to me. They have had no contact at all with superiors for quite some time, and they are basically on the verge on anarchy within the complex. A Capt. telling a subordinate to shoot an unarmed civilian for refusing to sit hardly seems as any semblance of normality is going on. IN LAND there is no military, there is no government lab or effort to control the situation or reverse it. What you see is people with weapons fully under Kauffman's control. His own personal army. Not a branch of the military holding onto ranks, and assignments. They have long since thrown those away. While this is true, it has little bearing on your point, if anything I say it supports mine. We both agree that there would be small pockets of survivors somewhere in the world. I say that is what we see in Day. As you yourself mentioned, it was a prime location to hold up. Underground, fenced in perimeter up top with helicopter access, and a huge area where all kinds of stuff is stored. It would be easy to hold out there for a long period of time, especially for only a dozen or so people. And it is just as likely as not they would continue to recognize rank, etc. Remember, they can not find another living soul for 100 miles in each direction. They are not foraging for supplies. There only purpose is to find other survivors, which they fail to do. There are people all over the place in Land. It doesnt make sense to me that there would be LESS people about closer to the time of outbreak, and MORE people around further away from the time of outbreak. Of course they were in different geographical locations, but I dont see why that would mean EVERYONE was dead in Florida, but not so in Penn. Also, Cholo says he heard there was an outpost in Cleavland. Heard from whom? One of he homeless living on the streets? How would anyone know anything about the outside world with no communication? The only answer I can see is that they do actually still have communication capabilities (supporting the idea that is takes place before Day) or that they have personally met others outside of the Green, meaning there are even more survivors nearby then we see on screen (which also supports my position). I think growing immune to death occurs pretty fast, sadly faster than you might think. My wife ex wife works in the emergency room. People die there every night. EVERY night. She used to get sad, feel for them. Feel badly for the families. If you do not turn that off you won't survive. You have to allow yourself to feel enough to be empathetic but not so much it eats you alive. Death is part of life, and when it is part of your job you need to keep yourself together by keeping some distance from the emotions so you are ready to jump in and help. I agree with and understand this completely. I would assume though, that it took quite sometime for your ex to be able to turn off the emotions. As for the drugs, there was much worse than that going on in Vietnam right in front of the officers who were there. That is fairly well documented I am sure you will agree, and those boys all knew they would be going back to a "normal" society. Yes, they knew (or at least hoped) that they would be returning to normal society. And sure the officers also used drugs. However, I am sure they did not grow pot right at the point where their superiors would come during a visit. In Day, any rescue party/reinforcements/superior officers etc would obviously land right where the pot was being grown. They made no effort whatsoever to hide it, grow it near the fence, grow something else in front of it to hide it, etc. This seems unlikely if they thought at any time someone may come there. This to me points to a LONG time of being there, not a short time.

[krakenslayer]

While I agree with this in part it certainly does show his intention for the film around the time he was writing it, he was preparing a film Called Day of the Dead to be released, he wrote it and the setting of that film was 5 years after Night. MANY of the details from that script found their way into the final version of Day. I do not find it so hard to imagine that the number of years post outbreak would be retained along with some of of the other details such as character names. In fact seems just as easy to assume it to be true as not. Good point Thorn. Further to this, I'd just like to point out that pretty much everything that you other guys are calling "evidence" of Day being set within a year of the outbreak - boats in their moorings, remaining supplies etc. etc. - is also apparent in the original Day script, which is most explicitly set five years after the outbreak. If, in Romero's universe, all these things can theoretically be in place five years in, they can also be in place 2-3 years in.

[Trin]

I guess we agree that the "3 years" line doesnt mean much. However, I disagree with your assessment that it CLEARLY indicates that Land takes place at least 3 years post outbreak. While it is certainly possible and logical, it is just as possible logical, that the beat-up shitty area they were calling a "garage" had went some time PRE outbreak without cars going in and out. If it is indeed not long after the outbreak, as I am suggesting, and people are fooling themselves into thinking things are normal, then a guy would knew no cars had left, say for 1 1/2 years prior to the outbreak, and they were 1 1/2 years into the outbreak, then it makes sense he would say "its been 3 years since...". I do not suggest that it CLEARLY indicates what I am saying is fact, just that it is just as possible and logical as the points you make. I agree that both are possible, but not "just as possible" as one another. The statement that the garage was idle for years prior to the zombie outbreak, and that there were people around who were famililar enough with a derelict garage to know it, is full of conjecture and speculation. I find it incredibly unlikely that a serviceable garage would be sitting idle during the establishment of the fortified city. And then to go back into service for Riley? The opposing viewpoint, that the garage had fallen into disuse after the zombie outbreak (perhaps even months or years after), is far more probable. As you can see, there was no love lost for Major Cooper being dead. And this statement counters any argument that Major Cooper's death in Day was met with a lack of sentiment commensurate with people who'd been post-zombie outbreak a long time. There are people all over the place in Land. We don't know that. It's only speculation in the movie and Riley even counters the assertion that Cleveland still exists. Further, we don't know that there AREN'T people around in Day just because they didn't find them while flying rapidly overhead in a chopper. Also, Cholo says he heard there was an outpost in Cleavland. Heard from whom? One of he homeless living on the streets? How would anyone know anything about the outside world with no communication? The only answer I can see is that they do actually still have communication capabilities (supporting the idea that is takes place before Day) I got the impression that Riley and Cholo had both heard of an outpost in Cleveland, probably via radio since Riley specifically mentioned "haven't heard from them" when he mentions it. We have no evidence they still exist or whether it's been 3 days or 3 years since they were heard from. The only answer I can see is that they do actually still have communication capabilities (supporting the idea that is takes place before Day) We just can't use that as evidence of anything. How can we assume that Land having a better radio than Day means Land comes before? The people in Land might have had NO radio for years then found one in a Radio Shack while driving Dead Reckoning around one day. It stands to reason that since they were actively scavenging the surrounding areas that they'd have access to tons better equipment. In Day they had a pristine shiny helicopter. Does the lack of a helicopter in Land imply that Land is later? No. All it implies is that they didn't have one. Give the folks in Day a bright shiny modern radio and they might've still been in contact with Washington. No amount of working in an ER makes a couple of flaky girls desensitized to death enough to take photos with reanimated dead bodies. That requires some serious time spent living in the new zombie world.

[Philly_SWAT]

I agree that both are possible, but not "just as possible" as one another. The statement that the garage was idle for years prior to the zombie outbreak, and that there were people around who were famililar enough with a derelict garage to know it, is full of conjecture and speculation. I find it incredibly unlikely that a serviceable garage would be sitting idle during the establishment of the fortified city. And then to go back into service for Riley? The opposing viewpoint, that the garage had fallen into disuse after the zombie outbreak (perhaps even months or years after), is far more probable. Did it look like a "serviceable garage" to you, or a place that had been sitting idle for some time? No way to know whether that idleness started pre or post outbreak. Why would it be crazy to think that someone there would know of what life was like there prior to the outbreak? Do you think those people were locals, or traveled in from California? As for probability, there is no way to say, which is why I didnt comment on probability one way or the other. They are both equally possible. It was improbably that the Giants would have beat the undefeated Patriots 2 years ago, but that is why they play the game. And this statement counters any argument that Major Cooper's death in Day was met with a lack of sentiment commensurate with people who'd been post-zombie outbreak a long time. Huh? We don't know that. It's only speculation in the movie and Riley even counters the assertion that Cleveland still exists. Further, we don't know that there AREN'T people around in Day just because they didn't find them while flying rapidly overhead in a chopper. How about when we see them land and call out with a megaphone? Again, there ONLY PURPOSE for flying around was looking for survivors. Sure, exactly how they did that is open for speculation, but common sense dictates they wouldnt fly full speed as high as possible, as that would make the whole concept moot. We just can't use that as evidence of anything. How can we assume that Land having a better radio than Day means Land comes before? The people in Land might have had NO radio for years then found one in a Radio Shack while driving Dead Reckoning around one day. It stands to reason that since they were actively scavenging the surrounding areas that they'd have access to tons better equipment. In Day they had a pristine shiny helicopter. Does the lack of a helicopter in Land imply that Land is later? No. All it implies is that they didn't have one. Give the folks in Day a bright shiny modern radio and they might've still been in contact with Washington. I never made the argument that they had a better radio in Land, only that it appeared that they had communications, regardless of newness/oldness of the radio.

[MoonSylver]

Sorry kraken, but I can't agree with that. Who would take their "last, best hope", and dump them in a bunker in another state, effectively well behind enemy lines and with limited communications ability? Strategically, thats a horrible move. Taking your "best scientific team (and last remaining hope)" WITH you is the safest move. I don't think Logan, Sarah and the rest were considered anywhere near top tier in the governments eyes. I think they were one of several teams that were dropped in areas that were already stocked with supplies and deemed reasonably safe. Thats all. If they were the best, they would have been holed up in NORAD or something, not out in the sticks. Yeah, I agree w/ everything ELSE Kracken said, but I'd agree on this part. Logan, Sarah & co w/ not the A-Team IMO. Sarah even confirms that there are other shelters out there, better equipped than theirs. I'd say the govt. was probably tossing every egghead they could lay their hands on that might have half an idea what the hell was going on into whatever hole they could find. Whatever, maybe they weren't important, maybe there were numerous scientific installations around the country ("there must be other groups like us"). My central point remains the same though - in my opinion, they were not sent to that bunker until well into the outbreak. Yeah...I'd never given it a whole lot of thought TBH. I'd thought about how LONG they'd been down there, how far along we are in the timeline, etc, but not WHEN they went down. I can see it making sense that they didn't hustle them down there right away, but rather when the defenses were breached, so to speak.

[EvilNed]

In Day, the zombies hadn't given up the idea of getting past the fence. In Land, they had. I guess that's the clearest answer we're going to get... Maybe we can't exactly pinpoint the time of each. But what we do know is that the zombies were more evolved in Land.

[FoodFight]

Or perhaps that Pennsylvania zombies are naturally more advanced than Florida zombies.

[SRP76]

There only purpose is to find other survivors, which they fail to do. There are people all over the place in Land. It doesnt make sense to me that there would be LESS people about closer to the time of outbreak, and MORE people around further away from the time of outbreak. Whoa, back the meatwagon up. There are no people "all over the place" in Land. There are more people holed up in their one "fortress" in Land than there are in Day. That's all.

[Philly_SWAT]

In Day, the zombies hadn't given up the idea of getting past the fence. In Land, they had. I guess that's the clearest answer we're going to get... Clear as mud. It offers no proof one way or the other. The difference is, in Day, the fence is not electrified, in Land it is. That is why the zeds dont come to it much anymore in the Land location. In the Day location, there is no harm to them, therefore no reason to leave. As we see in the corral scene, they notice the zeds in there are hesitant to come forward, as they are learning it is not a safe idea. Same behavior in both films. Maybe we can't exactly pinpoint the time of each. But what we do know is that the zombies were more evolved in Land. I say we dont know that at all. A species evolving would take thousands of years. I dont think they have evolved at all since the outbreak. Big Daddy may seem ...'smarter" than your average zed, but Einstein was smarter than the average human. There are always exceptional individuals. Also, the story told in Land is the first one that focuses on a group/community of zeds. In the other stories, no zeds are focused on at all except for Bub, and he also appears to be smarter than the average zed as well. He is held chained in tight quarters, with no way to 'show the audience' what he may be capable of. When he finally gets free, he actually takes a gun, chases down the killer of Logan and shoots him. Same behavior in both films. Or perhaps that Pennsylvania zombies are naturally more advanced than Florida zombies. This is a possibility also, although as I said above, we dont even have to assume that as we are given no indication as to the behavior of zeds in Florida other than Bub, who at the least seems the equal to Big Daddy. For all we know, Bub is the dumbest of the Florida zombies, we have nothing to compare him to.

[EvilNed]

Clear as mud. It offers no proof one way or the other. The difference is, in Day, the fence is not electrified, in Land it is. That is why the zeds dont come to it much anymore in the Land location. In the Day location, there is no harm to them, therefore no reason to leave. As we see in the corral scene, they notice the zeds in there are hesitant to come forward, as they are learning it is not a safe idea. Same behavior in both films. I say we dont know that at all. A species evolving would take thousands of years. I dont think they have evolved at all since the outbreak. Big Daddy may seem ...'smarter" than your average zed, but Einstein was smarter than the average human. There are always exceptional individuals. Also, the story told in Land is the first one that focuses on a group/community of zeds. In the other stories, no zeds are focused on at all except for Bub, and he also appears to be smarter than the average zed as well. He is held chained in tight quarters, with no way to 'show the audience' what he may be capable of. When he finally gets free, he actually takes a gun, chases down the killer of Logan and shoots him. Same behavior in both films. Just sounds like you're grasping for straws here, but I don't really care. Land is clearly meant to be placed after Day timeline-wise, but since I don't think they all take place in the same timeline anyway, I don't really care. But Day is obviously (discipline-wise) no more than a year into the outbreak. How far is Land in? Well, that is the question... And two characters state three years.

[Thorn]

In Day, the zombies hadn't given up the idea of getting past the fence. In Land, they had. I guess that's the clearest answer we're going to get... Maybe we can't exactly pinpoint the time of each. But what we do know is that the zombies were more evolved in Land. Whoa, back the meatwagon up. There are no people "all over the place" in Land. There are more people holed up in their one "fortress" in Land than there are in Day. That's all. I guess it is a matter we will all have to agree to disagree on until there is an official answer. I saw some great points made on both sides and several made me consider some of my points again in one case even change one of them. At the end of the day though I still feel as I did before but respect everyone's right to form their own opinion.