TWD 4x14 "The Grove" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

So if Carol & Tyreese make it to Terminus with Judith and meet Rick and Carl (and Michonne) there - what do you think Rick's reaction would be to Carol's return and her being teamed up with Tyreese?

[Neil]

So if Carol & Tyreese make it to Terminus with Judith and meet Rick and Carl (and Michonne) there - what do you think Rick's reaction would be to Carol's return and her being teamed up with Tyreese? I think given what's happened, no reaction; The reason he kicked Carol out is now long gone and usurped by more recent/important events!

[Moon Knight]

So if Carol & Tyreese make it to Terminus with Judith and meet Rick and Carl (and Michonne) there - what do you think Rick's reaction would be to Carol's return and her being teamed up with Tyreese? Once he see's Judith nothing else matters.

[AcesandEights]

Once he see's Judith nothing else matters. ^Yup. So much has gone on that Carol's murders will not (or at least should not) be a priority.

[Wyldwraith]

First, I want to affirm the general consensus that the child actors have done a superb job with some very heavy, very mature content. I really, REALLY don't get the Carl-hate in particular, especially the last Season & 1/2 or so. Yes, at FIRST Carl was sort of the "Wesley Crusher" of TWD. (Speaking of Seasons 1-2)...but even by the end of Season 2 the Carl character was really beginning to turn it around. Out of the entire cast, Carl is one of the most human-seeming, without straying into the realm of melodrama. His motivations are easily empathized with, and his actions are believable and very suitable to the environment the child has been growing up in. Second, others have said pretty much all there is to say about the Lizzie execution, so I'll skip that and move on to giving my two bits about the question of Rick meeting up with Carol. Stripped of all other factors, two points make Rick's previous reasoning invalid. 1) With Tyreese having forgiven Carol, there's no threat of group fracture (assuming enough of them re-coalesce to call it a group)...and on a more pointed note, if the loved one of the victim is ok with Carol's presence, who is Rick to say different? Not like his decisions have been yielding positive results for a LONG TIME now. 2) Rick has Carol to thank, like it or not, for Judith still being alive. More than once actually. If he were to stubbornly dig in and stick with his "I dont want you around" schtick, he'd lose whatever respect from the others he still has. It's water under the bridge, that's that. Regarding Terminus: It's strange how people are following the railroad tracks by walking straight down the middle of them, when Tyreese (for example) saw a group of survivors devoured the very first thing as he laid eyes on the train tracks. Yes, the tracks are a ready made path...but that cuts both ways since a path of least resistance like the train tracks would quite likely serve to funnel significant #'s of Walkers onto the tracks as well. I can understand why the survivors would take the risk...low food supplies mean you need to minimize burning calories wherever and whenever possible, I just wouldn't be surprised if I were this or that element of the scattered survivors from the prison and I came upon, or was come upon, by a large herd drifting along the tracks in either direction. It's been a real roller-coaster ride this season-half. Though I actually liked the scene with Daryl and Beth at the moonshine shack a lot. As for the fire, it is cool how they've shown us from a viewer-perspective again and again how close each element of the group is to each other. If circumstances weren't pushing everyone to be so consistently mobile others would no doubt have reunited by now. The Terminus sign has actually served to keep them separated, because different group-splinters find the sign at different times, and then set out along the tracks. Without such impetus, it would be more likely that at least some of the group would've remained in the area looking for their comrades. I appreciate the irony, but I just wish that a bit more reunification had already happened. It's getting a bit cumbersome to have five groups running about. They've done a great job at keeping it interesting, but this model won't work indefinitely.

[facestabber]

Circumstances prevented me from viewing until now. Wow. Speechless. Home run from my Walking Dead family

[MinionZombie]

Interesting points Wyld, as thoughtful as ever. Staying on the tracks might pose a danger in some regards, but in other regards it makes sense. You won't get turned around ass-backwards by a distraction elsewhere (and possibly, even though you're really close to the tracks, head in the wrong direction and move away from them), plus it's more even ground under your feet rather than yomping through the undulating ground of the woods on either side. Also, walkers wouldn't recognise the train tracks. The skirmish that happened by the tracks could have happened anywhere just as easily ... it was really more of a coincidence that that happened by the tracks. If you think about it though, the tracks are quiet - no trains - so no noise, therefore no real reason to keep any walkers hanging around there. They'd just continue ambling on aimlessly, or search out a noise they'd heard nearby (e.g. a gunshot). Humans on the other hand know what the tracks are and understand the sense in following them. They keep to the path and never get lost. Good to see, though, that Maggie/Bob/Sasha all camped off to the side somewhere within the treeline, while Ty & Co used a bridge for some form of cover - at the very least an identifiable "place" to stay. Finally, it makes sense visually for them to stay on the tracks. It keeps the viewers locked-in to the 'tying in' nature of the tracks - it helps add a unity to these disparate groups, who, I'd strongly imagine, will be reunited by the end of the season. Perhaps not every single group, as Glenn & Co and Daryl/Beth remain somewhat up-in-the-air right now, but I'd imagine they'd all end up back together again. I don't imagine for one minute they'll keep this disparate groups thing going for much longer as it would get old. Thus far it's been quite nice and has afforded us some good one-on-one time, in a way, with smaller groups. Everybody has been given a time to shine and a handful of significant moments. They've changed and grown and expressed themselves. They've grieved and thrashed out and re-grouped in their heads ... some/most of them anyway ... they're all on different schedules with that. On Talking Dead there was an interesting comment relayed from Gimple about fire and walkers. With their deteriorating eyesight, they're attracted to the fire as it's light and movement - and, indeed, noise. Fresher walkers will have better senses than the older ones, but I thought that was interesting, and also speaks a little bit to how the walkers don't sense the world around them as we do - far from it, in just a very basic kind of way. Sound, light, movement. ... A follow-up question to the Rick/Carol issue - when/if everyone regroups, what do you think the reactions of the other people will be? For instance Maggie (who knows about Carol's kills), and will they inform the others in the group who don't yet know about Carol's actions (e.g. Glenn and Daryl)? If they did tell these other characters - what would their likely reactions be, do you all think?

[facestabber]

Interesting points Wyld, as thoughtful as ever. Staying on the tracks might pose a danger in some regards, but in other regards it makes sense. You won't get turned around ass-backwards by a distraction elsewhere (and possibly, even though you're really close to the tracks, head in the wrong direction and move away from them), plus it's more even ground under your feet rather than yomping through the undulating ground of the woods on either side. Also, walkers wouldn't recognise the train tracks. The skirmish that happened by the tracks could have happened anywhere just as easily ... it was really more of a coincidence that that happened by the tracks. If you think about it though, the tracks are quiet - no trains - so no noise, therefore no real reason to keep any walkers hanging around there. They'd just continue ambling on aimlessly, or search out a noise they'd heard nearby (e.g. a gunshot). Humans on the other hand know what the tracks are and understand the sense in following them. They keep to the path and never get lost. Good to see, though, that Maggie/Bob/Sasha all camped off to the side somewhere within the treeline, while Ty & Co used a bridge for some form of cover - at the very least an identifiable "place" to stay. Finally, it makes sense visually for them to stay on the tracks. It keeps the viewers locked-in to the 'tying in' nature of the tracks - it helps add a unity to these disparate groups, who, I'd strongly imagine, will be reunited by the end of the season. Perhaps not every single group, as Glenn & Co and Daryl/Beth remain somewhat up-in-the-air right now, but I'd imagine they'd all end up back together again. I don't imagine for one minute they'll keep this disparate groups thing going for much longer as it would get old. Thus far it's been quite nice and has afforded us some good one-on-one time, in a way, with smaller groups. Everybody has been given a time to shine and a handful of significant moments. They've changed and grown and expressed themselves. They've grieved and thrashed out and re-grouped in their heads ... some/most of them anyway ... they're all on different schedules with that. On Talking Dead there was an interesting comment relayed from Gimple about fire and walkers. With their deteriorating eyesight, they're attracted to the fire as it's light and movement - and, indeed, noise. Fresher walkers will have better senses than the older ones, but I thought that was interesting, and also speaks a little bit to how the walkers don't sense the world around them as we do - far from it, in just a very basic kind of way. Sound, light, movement. ... A follow-up question to the Rick/Carol issue - when/if everyone regroups, what do you think the reactions of the other people will be? For instance Maggie (who knows about Carol's kills), and will they inform the others in the group who don't yet know about Carol's actions (e.g. Glenn and Daryl)? If they did tell these other characters - what would their likely reactions be, do you all think? Just to further Wylde's point about Rick Carol situation. I know our view points on Rick differ but I definitely agree that this is water under the bridge. But I think it becomes that from a different perspective. I dont believe Rick's position will change because of Tyrese forgiving Carol. I believe Rick, well everyone from the prison for that matter, have a new perspective on life after the prison collapse. Lets face it, everyone was becoming somewhat complacent and they began developing exclusivist attitudes toward outsiders(Not with bad intentions but self preservation). Knowing now how much worse it is outside the prison walls I firmly believe Rick will probably break down(obviously for Judith) but also an inner pain from his decision with Carol. I think he will hope Carol can forgive him. He has a history with Carol and Sophia and her abuse from Ed. The prison group was a family and I believe if reunited will be stronger than ever against the rest of society. There are not many friendly faces left in the world. Minion Im pretty sure Daryl knows about Carol's actions. Didnt Rick tell him right before the Gov assaulted? But to your question I again feel that the prison group will be so elated to be reunited that the slate is wiped clean. The past is the past and its time to move forward as a family. I would like to see a scene similar to the quarry camp fire with members of team prison reminiscing about their lost members etc. Even a memorial. One of my favorite scenes was when Shane and Rick first recognized each other and then Carl screams, "dad". We have some potentially tear jerking reunions coming up.

[Buzzbomb]

Talk about cooking on gas... An excellent episode! At first I thought the opening was another flashback, what with the wind-up gramophone & kettle on the stove. I liked how the opening scene was a preview of the mid show Lizzie meltdown & then kind of reprised when Carol & Tyresse left at the end. Superb acting all 'round (especially Carol - though Michah. Lizzie & Tyrese all had their moments), great dialogue... it makes me not want to get too picky (deer not bothered by gunshot, a smoke plume that the characters decide is some distance away - yet walkers are still smouldering / teleporting)... I'm still kinda gob-smacked how good this one was overall. Glad to see people referencing the "Law & Order" episode of the original BBC 'Survivors' too. The nuance of that was different, but I think it'll have the same kind of impact. A classic.

[zomtom]

Just watched this episode again. It's just as powerful and disturbing the second time around. I can't seem to stop thinking about this episode since it first aired. It really affected me. That's what you call GREAT television, in my opinion. The acting was really superb. Damned, I wish they would hand an Emmy to this show! My only objection is why in the hell would the two adults leave a baby with somebody who is clearly disturbed? I mean, Lizzie became seriously unhinged when Carol killed her "friend". If I was in Carol's shoes, there is no way in hell I would allow her to be with a baby unsupervised. As much as I dread the season ending, I'm looking forward to doing a marathon of the entire season.

[MinionZombie]

Carol and Tyreese didn't know Lizzie was that messed up though. It's a big leap to go from that to killing her own sister (and about to kill Judith), and neither of them saw her nearly suffocate Judith (not even Mika saw that and she was standing right behind her, back to back). Plus Mika had shown herself as being capable of taking down a walker, and in command of Lizzie ("look at the flowers and count one, two, three...") The look on their faces confirms that they had absolutely no idea that Lizzie was capable of such an awful deed. As for smouldering walkers - it's just a visual cue to help identify them to the viewer as freshly burned/charred walkers, so that there's no confusion about where they came from. It's obvious that they came from that fire, but not everyone would twig on that, so the smoke helps further sell that they've just been cooked ... plus it looks cool, and it also makes them look hotter, and I think it helps further sell the make-up work. Facestabber - yes, good point, I'd forgotten that Rick had told Daryl just before the assault. Slipped my mind, so it did.

[Neil]

As for smouldering walkers - it's just a visual cue to help identify them to the viewer as freshly burned/charred walkers, so that there's no confusion about where they came from. It's obvious that they came from that fire, but not everyone would twig on that, so the smoke helps further sell that they've just been cooked ... plus it looks cool, and it also makes them look hotter, and I think it helps further sell the make-up work. True, but it was pointless though... The moment I saw them break out of the woods I thought it was a beautiful scripting moment - just as the animals were heading away from the fire, so were the undead and here was a horde of them all unified in their movement by heading away from the fire. However, as it was, it was just your typical group of half a dozen of them, which could have come from anywhere, for any reason. ie: There was no need for them to be "smoldering" etc.

[AcesandEights]

True, but it was pointless though... The moment I saw them break out of the woods I thought it was a beautiful scripting moment - just as the animals were heading away from the fire, so were the undead and here was a horde of them all unified in their movement by heading away from the fire. However, as it was, it was just your typical group of half a dozen of them, which could have come from anywhere, for any reason. ie: There was no need for them to be "smoldering" etc. Meh, doesn't really seem like a big exercise in pointlessness, to me. It was just a reason to get some varied zombie effects and make up in there (which looked great) and yet again underline proximity. Doesn't seem like much to get picky about, to me.

[MinionZombie]

True, but it was pointless though... The moment I saw them break out of the woods I thought it was a beautiful scripting moment - just as the animals were heading away from the fire, so were the undead and here was a horde of them all unified in their movement by heading away from the fire. However, as it was, it was just your typical group of half a dozen of them, which could have come from anywhere, for any reason. ie: There was no need for them to be "smoldering" etc. Except that it isn't pointless - the reasons I laid out, surely, illustrate the point entirely. Far better that, as in the episode, the walkers are coming from the burned down house that Daryl and Beth came across. Nice to see the close proximity, but with people initially wandering semi-directionless, and arriving at places at different times, they're just missing each other. They clearly didn't just come from anywhere - they came from that fire specifically - and they were freshly cooked, so why not have them smouldering a bit? I don't know what the realities are for smouldering of burned bodies - indeed, sometimes the human body does things that are surprising and would seem made-up, but are actually true. Even if it's not quite possible/probable for them to be smouldering at this point (seemingly just a few hours after being burned), the reasons I laid out above more than give enough reason for the show makers to do it. It would be interesting to know though, from a medical stand point, if that's possible though for bodies to smoulder like that (e.g. in war zones etc when a fire has broken out, or when a body has been discovered after a flash fire). Either way, it's really not something to get heated over ... boom and indeed tish. ... EDIT: http://forensicsciencecentral.co.uk/...tigation.shtml Smouldering Not all types of fire produce flames. Smouldering is a form of flameless combustion which occurs at the surface of the material in cellulosic substances that can form a solid char. The presence of a smouldering fire is characterised by extremely localised burning and the production of thick, tarry smoke. The surface temperature can be linked to the colour of the smouldering. For example, dark red surfaces suggest a temperature of 500-600oC, whereas a white surface indicates temperatures in excess of 1400oC. The rate of propagation is dependent on the material burning and the amount of oxygen available. Only low concentrations of oxygen are required for smouldering combustion, but if sufficient oxygen is supplied, smouldering fires can then produce flames. Cigarettes are a common cause of smouldering fires when left in contact with upholstered furniture, for example. Generally more to do with materials such as wood and such. Although I'd imagine this kind of thing is applicable to anything that can burn, including bodies?

[Neil]

Meh, doesn't really seem like a big exercise in pointlessness, to me. It was just a reason to get some varied zombie effects and make up in there (which looked great) and yet again underline proximity. Doesn't seem like much to get picky about, to me. I wasn't so much getting picky about that, just the fact when I first saw them I thought it was down to a clever reason. ie: All the zombies in that areas were being forced out on-mass. I was expecting a huge horde for this clever reason, which then didn't happen The only real nit-pick was them then teleporting right back behind the two girls who'd clearly run well ahead of them