BBC: Best Christmas film?

[JDP]

...If someone holds a different opinion from yours, that means they don’t know what they’re talking about? It's not a matter of "opinion", it's just what it is. A movie/story where a given holiday does not play any important part of the plot and is only an incidental element obviously does not qualify it as a "holiday movie/story". Just common sense and logic. Is Moonraker (1979) a "Carnival movie"??? After all, it happens during the Carnival season. Nope, I don't think so! It's what it plainly is: a secret agent action/adventure/sci-fi flick. Carnival celebrations are just incidental and do not play any important part in the plot.

[bassman]

That seems like a narrow way of looking at it, but that’s your opinion, so you’re welcomed to it, of course.

[blind2d]

So does this mean Rob Zombie's Halloween 2 isn't a Halloween-holiday movie?

[JDP]

That seems like a narrow way of looking at it, but that’s your opinion, so you’re welcomed to it, of course. Again, not an "opinion", just facts. "Opinion" -and a very incorrect one- is claiming that Die Hard is a "Christmas movie" even though this holiday does not play any important part in the film. - - - Updated - - - So does this mean Rob Zombie's Halloween 2 isn't a Halloween-holiday movie? Haven't seen it, but the original Halloween movies certainly qualify. The theme of the "boogeyman" only coming out in that holiday is an important element of the original movie. Myers goes on his killing rampages only on Halloween. And Halloween III is even more Halloween-centered!

[bassman]

[EvilNed]

It cannot be reasoned with. Do not even try. Dismissing all studies on film theory and genre classification on a whim like that without no sign of self reflection whatsoever is absurd. Genre works like this; If 9 out of 10 people say that X is X. Then it is X. It doesn't work like this; X is generally considered to be X. 9 out of 10 are in agreement. But 1 person claims that X is in fact Y, and calls all others wrong. That, in fact, makes X into Y. First genre is determined. Then it is determined what makes people see it as such. In the case of Christmas films; what makes a Christmas film? Well - being included in any number of "List of Christmas films" is actually one of the highest criteria. Genre's are nothing more than a made up term to categorize works of art. That's it. There's nothing mystical about it. Brazil, for instance, is also a Christmas movie. Why? Because it's set at Christmas and features a Christmas theme. Does that make me run for it whenever it's Christmas? No, of course not. But some might, and that is their prerogative - and there's no "facts" about it. If you try to apply "facts" to a field of subjective opinions then you've completely misunderstood what art theory is all about. You may wish to discuss it from a field of facts, but it's going to be a monologue because you're speaking a different language than everybody else. So have fun.

[JDP]

Talking about clueless and not being able to be reasoned with: a person who hilariously thinks that genres are a "democracy" and are decided by popular vote. Again, the fact that nobody considered the movie in question as a "Christmas movie" and was not even advertised as such when it came out (during the summer, no less!), and that anyone with at least a modicum of criterion can plainly see that said holiday is only an incidental element in the plot, doesn't appear to bother him at all. Not surprising from the same guy who thinks that 28 Days Later is "a perfect example of a zombie movie"

[bassman]

That’s the second or third time I’ve seen the advertising defense. You guys do realize that it’s easy to find original theatrical trailers on either the home video release or YouTube, right? Might wanna look that one up before using it again... First audio heard: Christmas song, “Let it Snow”. First line of narration: “It’s Christmas Eve in Los Angeles” Last line of dialogue: “Got invited to the Christmas party by mistake. Who knew??”

[EvilNed]

Talking about clueless and not being able to be reasoned with: a person who hilariously thinks that genres are a "democracy" and are decided by popular vote. That's exactly what defines a genre. Consensus. And you can't find a single film theorist out there who'd agree with your point of view. Not one.

[JDP]

That's exactly what defines a genre. Consensus. And you can't find a single film theorist out there who'd agree with your point of view. Not one. Consensus among the people who actually know what they are talking about, not the average viewer/reader. Genres are created by the writers, not the public. Like I said, if all of a sudden some groundless nonsense compelled most people to see Cannibal Holocaust or some other such movie in a tropical jungle as a "Summer Vacation" movie that would still not make it so. Genres are not a popularity contest.

[EvilNed]

Consensus among the people who actually know what they are talking about, not the average viewer/reader. Genres are created by the writers, not the public. Like I said, if all of a sudden some groundless nonsense compelled most people to see Cannibal Holocaust or some other such movie in a tropical jungle as a "Summer Vacation" movie that would still not make it so. Genres are not a popularity contest. Actually, yes it would. As that would force us to rethink what we believe a summer vacation is. But it's an absurd example, so it's never going to happen.

[JDP]

That’s the second or third time I’ve seen the advertising defense. You guys do realize that it’s easy to find original theatrical trailers on either the home video release or YouTube, right? Might wanna look that one up before using it again... First audio heard: Christmas song, “Let it Snow”. First line of narration: “It’s Christmas Eve in Los Angeles” Last line of dialogue: “Got invited to the Christmas party by mistake. Who knew??” That's hardly an advertisement for a "Christmas movie" (in fact, as pointed out numerous times, the movie was released as a summer action film.) It's just describing some of what goes on in the movie, which does indeed happen during a Christmas party. And that's pretty much the only connection the film has to Christmas: the party, which is just an excuse to get all these people together so they can be taken hostage by a group of terrorists. You could easily change it to pretty much any other holiday, like St. Patrick's Day or Fourth of July, and the movie works just as well. This is a telltale sign of what constitutes a "holiday movie": if you cannot change a given holiday for another one without affecting some important aspect of the plot, then it IS a "holiday movie". The holiday in question (whichever it is) has to play an important role in the story, otherwise it is just a movie/story that just coincidentally happens during some festivity. By such faulty criterion as you are defending, any movie that features anything remotely connected to Christmas for no reason that is really relevant to the plot is a "Christmas movie". For example, First Blood (1982) would be a "Christmas movie" (the action happens during Christmas season.) But any reasonable, observant, logical person can easily see it's just incidental and you could set the movie during any other season and it would work just as well. Therefore: NOT a "Christmas movie". - - - Updated - - - Actually, yes it would. As that would force us to rethink what we believe a summer vacation is. But it's an absurd example, so it's never going to happen. Actually no, it wouldn't, as anyone could tell it is nonsense. And since this whole ridiculous "Die Hard is a Christmas movie" has happened, I would not be surprised if something like that happens too.

[EvilNed]

You're unreasonable at this point. Back on the ignore list you go. Anyway, happy new year.

[JDP]

Says Mr. Unreasonable himself. And we still know that you keep religiously reading everything I post, so keep on reading and losing most debates that you try to engage in with me, as usual. Happy New Year

[EvilNed]

I agree with you JDP, Die Hard is definitely a christmas film. I however disagree with your statement that Cannibal Holocaust is also a christmas film, and suggest you're perhaps reading too much into the natives bodily ornaments. I do not think they are meant to suggest that the film takes place at Christmas, as you say they are.