TWD 2x11 "Judge, Jury, Executioner" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[bassman]

I don't understand all the hate for Carl. Most of what he did in this episode felt like it was ripped straight from the comic, imo. Especially the quick scene with him in the barn just giving Randall a stone cold stare. Sure, he made a mistake by toying with the walker in the marsh, but that was really the only "wrong" thing he did in the episode. Perhaps having read the comics is swaying my opinion and if it were "real life" I would call him an idiot, but within the context and progression of his character, it felt right imo.

[rightwing401]

It really sucks that they killed Dale. Between my wife and myself, he was one of our favorite characters. I actually saw my wife gripping the edge of her seat when the walker pounced on Dale. But, while a sad ending for us, that makes this show all the more real. Just like the comic, no one is really safe. Yeah, what Carl did was really stupid. But I also keep reminding myself that he's still just a kid, and likely wanted his own little form of payback for having lost Sophia. As for Randal, well... After hearing his little speeches to both Darrel and Carl, I'm totally convinced of one unmistakable truth about him. He's a little weasel rat that will do/say anything to keep his sorry ass alive. While he may or may not have partaken in the gang rap of two young women/girls, the way he talked to Carl makes me doubt if anything he says can be trusted. If (and likely when) the group he was with shows up, Randal's decision to leave or stay with Rick and company will be based on one simple decision. Which group is stronger and will give him the best chance to stay alive. When Rick didn't pop him, I actually cursed out loud for his chickening out. My wife asked why I was for the execution when she had originally been for putting one between Randal's eyes when he was impaled on the fence and I was the one professing to spare him. My response was simple. "Well, now I regret that decision."

[JDFP]

Was anyone else waiting for Randall to look up during his interrogation and say: "My real name is Henry Gale! I came here in a balloon that crashed! I swear I'm not one of the Others! I'm not like them!" That scene just seemed eerily similar - and the whole issue of what they should do with him (kill him or spare him or what) also seems eerily similar. Hmm... j.p.

[Thorn]

Well, damn! Did anybody see that ending coming! I liked Dale but I think it was about time for him to go, he's better off anyways since he didn't like where things were going. It was quite a shock, which is what I love about this series. They don't feel obligated to off somebody each episode, so when it actually does happen, it is quite jarring. I mean, you have dead wood hanging around like T-Dog who has 1 line per episode, and I thought he was done in episode 1 of season 2, and I was fine with that because I saw him as zombie fodder anyways, but yet, he's still hanging around. I'm disappointed in Rick in this episode, I knew he'd back out at the last minute and Randall needed to die. He obviously still has association in his mind with those who abandoned him, going off of what he said to Carl. I agree with all of the bolded above. I was tired of Dale especially after this episode, I understood they were giving him a proper send off as an actor dedicating an episode to him, his message, and so on but it drug on too long. That whole moral choices crap could have played out in the house not man to man and been just as effective. wasn't very impressed with this episode, seemed like it belonged in the first half....terrible pacing, too many commercial breaks. they should've just left randall to be devoured in town and been done with all that mess. and wtf is up with carl? being a smart-ass to carol? just going around adventuring on his own? and taking one of darryl's guns and losing it? kid needed a good fucking smack in nearly every scene he was in. and all dale does is fucking whine and cry, i'm truly glad they killed that miserable old bastard off. he wasn't one of my favorite characters in the comics, but he was at least likeable...i can't recall every liking him in this show...what a wasted character....good riddance, old man. and while i'm going on about all this, my gf is busy wiping tears from her eyes over dale's death...to each his/her own i guess....but i thought this episode was pretty lame, overall. i dunno, i guess that after 3 solid episodes with the tension being ratcheted up with each week, this episode just felt very, very dull and flat. Agreed. Really all this episode had for me personally was the opening with Daryl the enforced working his Sayid role as torturer for the group. Then the shock ending. I know this is a sacralidge and as much as I like Nic I really do not think he is a great director, this episode seemed like it was directed by an amateur. Even hearing him explain his thoughts behind shots an such o nthe Talking Dead was like sitting in High School cinema and arts not listening to a professional director. Wow, That was a total sleeper of an episode. Felt my eyes glazing over with all the moral hand-wringing, then perked up at Carl's insanely dangerous behavior with the Walker...then WHAM! Absolutely BEAUTIFUL how they crafted that to wipe out a core character and rip Carl's guts out with guilt over it all in one blow. Just...wow. Sadly, the scenes from next week indicate that Dale has become something of a "Moral Martyr"...which would suck, but then we see that things go all kindsa wrong with Randall despite a decision to let him go. Still, an absolutely MONSTER ENDING. For dramatic punch it ranks up there with Rick's mad scrambled under the tank and away from the horde...and for creepiness leading up to the violence..while not eclipsing those creepy white fingers pushing out from beyond the chained-shut "Don't Open, Dead Inside!" doors, it was certainly right up there when you tie in Carl's earlier encounter with that Walker. Rick though ::shakes head::...he was starting to show such promise. Now this backsliding. Curse you Dale, you're moralizing from beyond the grave! :P Agree again with the bolded above, I think there is no answer here but killing the guy he knows Maggie and her farm, he can lead his people to the farm, he will go back to his people for safety of course... who wouldn't? Or they find him accidentally... whatever. He is clearly not a good guy and the group, and my family needs to be protected. He needs to be executed. You can't keep prisoners around draining resources, energy, and man power, and you can't risk him escaping. He was at the very LEAST willfully compliant in the sexual assault of teenage girls where a father was made to observe. This is cruelty if he was a man worth having around he would not have played a part in it. I of course feel he is understating his role, and who wouldn't after being tortured and having Shane in your face? Rick dropping the ball here quite clearly. As much as I like Dale's message this episode had me disliking the guy a lot, and it was a failing of writing or directing in my opinion because when he died I was shocked but I was not sad in anyway. His message was too broad, to grand and too black and white. Also eff' Carl I hate that little prick, he was cool in the comic fun to watch develop into what he becomes, this Carl is just annoying.

[Wyldwraith]

First, Rick didn't back out on shooting Randall because Carl showing up "made him remember he was a good man." Rick spells his decision out to Lori, and I quote: "He (Carl) followed us. He wanted to WATCH". Choosing not to shoot Randall at that time (or ever now, thanks to Dale's much-needed death) was entirely based on Rick being deeply concerned for the effect the execution would have on Carl, and not because of something such as it being scary/traumatizing for Carl, but because after his "No she's (Sophia) not in Heaven. Heaven is just another lie, and you're an IDIOT if you believe in it!" confrontation with Carrol the whole "Do it Dad, do it" as he stood in the doorway watching Rick with his .357 all but pressed to the forehead of a blindfolded, kneeling man begging for his life...that set off a red flag for Rick that Carl's recent behavior is for much deeper reasons than simple childish acting out. Bottom line? Rick feared that shooting Randall after Carl indicated he wanted to see Rick do just that would "cement" this absent-old world-morality in favor of post-apocalyptic pragmatism outlook in Carl's mind. Second, while Rick may have effectively curtailed/disciplined Carl on the basic issue of mouthing off to Carrol. Nothing Rick said addressed the reasons/feelings CARL had developed that made him go off about Heaven being a lie in the first place. In fact, Rick's major line was essentially apologism for Carrol believing Sophia's in Heaven. "Carrol just lost her little girl. She wants...needs to believe she lives on somewhere in some way." Yes, it explains to Carl why Carrol said and believes as she did, but Rick's omission/failure to reach out to Carl concerning the boy's denial of the afterlife as a lie undermines Rick's intended message to Carl. Basically in Carl's current mindset, what he would have taken from such statements by his father is that where he (Carl) went wrong was in EXPRESSING his disbelief concerning Heaven in a way that was hurtful to Carrol. Otherwise, there's every reason to believe that Carl is still convinced that Sophia is nothing but worm food, as is Dale now (albeit because of him (Carl)) in his mind. The root cause of Carl's shift in demeanor/behavior/outlook wasn't addressed by Rick, and that was very believable, because what father WOULD know what to say upon recognizing that the Apocalypse his child is being forced to grow up in is robbing his son of his innocence and forcing him to grow up much too fast. Lastly, I completely agree that Randall couldn't be any more of a weasel if he tried. Rick should have killed him...Hell, Rick should have left him behind in the first place. The group's meeting proved that there was NO VIABLE means of ensuring the group's safety from the ongoing threat posed by Randall. Worse, Rick's backing out..in light of the fact that Andrea had backed Dale about letting Randall live, only to see Dale gutted before she could even find him to tell him that Rick had chosen to spare him (Randall)...is quite likely to drive Andrea back towards Shane's methodology. Andrea's core motivation is not wanting to be afraid because of personal weakness on her part, so there's a fair chance she'll read Dale's demise as a result of him being a man who couldn't accept the reality of the world they now live in. And yes, it would have been eight kinds of badass had Carl listened to all of Randall's attempted smooth-talking and then just shot him repeatedly...then calmly step forward and carefully squeeze off a round into the back of Randall's head.

[AcesandEights]

Soooo, out of interest, does anyone have any other ideas on how to have handled this situation with Randall? Letting him go: problem. Keeping him prisoner: problem. Dropping him off further away: problem. I have added a poll.

[Ragnarr]

Tough call really. IF there are indeed 30 hostiles, IF Randall is loyal enough to the hostiles to lead them to the farm, IF Randall really knows where the farm's location is, IF the main characters do not have enough food to spare in order to keep Randall prisoner... well, they actually DO have enough food for Randall now considering that Dale will no longer be needing any. Hmm...

[sandrock74]

I think dropping him off really far away, like a hundred miles away, especially if he were blindfolded, he would NEVER get back to the area! Not in the current state of the world. Roads routinely blocked by cars, wandering zombies, etc. Heck, if someone dropped me off a hundred miles from home and I didn't know what direction we had gone in, I know I'd be confused! I'd be able to find my way home, but thats with things running like normal. In a post zombie apocalypse world, you're pretty much stuck in the general area you find yourself in. By the way, does anyone else think Randal is lying about having gone to school with Maggie? She hasn't said anything about it. He could have easily gotten her name while he was there for the week, resting up from his injuries, and made up the connection in the hopes it would buy him more time. Maggie didn't recognize him from school? They don't live in a highly populated area, how many classmates would she have had? I'm just not buying it...

[bassman]

First, Rick didn't back out on shooting Randall because Carl showing up "made him remember he was a good man." Rick spells his decision out to Lori, and I quote: "He (Carl) followed us. He wanted to WATCH". Choosing not to shoot Randall at that time (or ever now, thanks to Dale's much-needed death) was entirely based on Rick being deeply concerned for the effect the execution would have on Carl That's exactly what I meant with the "good man" comment, btw. Rick doesn't want his boy to become a stone cold killer. He wants him to retain a sense of what the world once was. While Rick agreed that Randall needed to be put down for the good of the group, it wasn't until Carl walked in that he was able to step back from himself for a moment and realise what he was doing. Watching your son walk in to witness an execution and also say "do it" would be a sobering moment for any parent, and especially with Rick it reminded him what kind of man he was and should be.

[thxleo]

By the way, does anyone else think Randal is lying about having gone to school with Maggie? She hasn't said anything about it. He could have easily gotten her name while he was there for the week, resting up from his injuries, and made up the connection in the hopes it would buy him more time. Maggie didn't recognize him from school? They don't live in a highly populated area, how many classmates would she have had? I'm just not buying it... No, he really went to school with her. I had a conversation with Greg the other day and he was telling me about a scene that was either shot and deleted or it was in the script and they decided not to shoot it - I can't even remember now - where Maggie is looking at her high school year book with Glenn and she shows him Randall's photo in the year book. She makes some kind of comment about him being a nerd and not really noticing him, something Glenn relates to. It sounded like a nice scene and Greg said it was tough to let it go. But now that they didn't include it they could always just say Randall was lying, but I doubt they would bother to even think of it.

[bassman]

Maybe my memory is off, but didn't Randall also say that he and Maggie didn't know each other? It may be a rural area, but I think it's certainly possible that they went to school together and never really crossed paths...

[Thorn]

Maybe my memory is off, but didn't Randall also say that he and Maggie didn't know each other? It may be a rural area, but I think it's certainly possible that they went to school together and never really crossed paths... That was what Randall said yes, your memory is spot on. It is a tough situation, I would never want to rob my daughter of her child hood. But in this world, growing up fast, might mean survival you just have to temper his rapid maturation with good parenting and instruction. It could mean saving his life, or Carl saving Rick's or Lori's or the group one day. You don't want to see a child hard and cold but lifeless is a worse option. I feel strongly the kid should be shot, he is clearly a danger. Leading him 100 miles away is a poor option personally, you risk your own people to do it, and that is unacceptable. Car breaks down, zombie herd, bad weather, raiders... whatever. I am not asking one of my people to do it and I wouldn't do it either.

[acealive1]

carl has to be the dumbest kid ever. most kids would be SCARED SHITLESS to wander around while theres zombies limping all over the area let alone after you got your chest blown out by otis. then he smarts off to carol? yea my mom woulda slapped my lips off of my face. didnt see the dale death coming as it happened alot differently and further out in the comics. if they're changing this, maybe carl should be shot on accident by shane or eaten. and just like rick, daryl isnt stupid. he goes off enough alone so he'll find his gun and put two and two together about how the zombie got to the farm.

[rongravy]

Wow, amazing show. Here I was sitting there telling my family that Shane was gonna get it, then Dale ends up spilling his guts instead... I wish we all had monitors set up to share our reactions with other HPOTD viewers, I'd love to see it. I thought for sure they'd get to Dale in time. As far as what Ragnarr said about him rolling out from under the zombie: as soon as he'd go for both wrists, that mouth would've found flesh. Also, I'm nearly 40 and would probably slip a disc doing that, so imagine Dale's weak ass trying to get out of that. Randall: I wasn't sure about him until his chat with Carl. He offered to take him to his group, so he's clearly still thinking about them in a "They'll come get me soon enough" way. Should've never brought him back. Carl: Annoying little bastard. That's all I wanna say on that.

[ProfessorChaos]

I don't understand all the hate for Carl....Sure, he made a mistake by toying with the walker in the marsh, but that was really the only "wrong" thing he did in the episode... how about taking the handgun from daryl's bike and subsequently losing it in the marsh? you'd think that being nearly devoured a few times, having the only other kid get infected and put down right before your eyes a few weeks back, and being shot would keep the little fella grounded in the reality of the situation and close to the safety of adults, but instead he's walking around like he's fucking clint eastwood just cuz he gets to wear his dad's hat. he needs to redeem himself next episode by getting his head out of his ass. i also find it amusing that lori's up for "apocalyptic mother of the year award" (guess carol's disqualified, oops), given her speeches to andrea and maggie over the last few episodes about "holding things together back here" and all that jazz...you'd think keeping an eye on the single child of the group, your own son, would be near the top of the priority list. yet carl has time to belittle carol, talk back to his dad, sneak into the place they're keeping randall, steal a firearm, toy around with a walker and almost get killed, etc. and how many lines of dialogue has t-dogg had since the season resumed? less than 10? probably should have just killed him off last night as well, if they plan to include another character from the comics who's name also starts with T.