So which Night film is canon to George's series, original or remake?

[MinionZombie]

Are we really going to do all this again? Look, I thought we all agreed that Night 90 had replaced the 1968 version. Land comes before Day, but ONLY if you watch the 2004 version of Dawn and the 1978 version of Dawn has been relegated to happening on some far away 1970's planet, where disco never died. It's fuckin simple folks.

[JDP]

Steel and Rickles are amazed that the others didn't find any sign of life on their helicopter trip. The privates still live in a bubble where communication with Washington is not a far-fetched idea. They do not know what's out there, they only speculate. This is clearly illustrated in the film. By the time we see what's going on in Day, they have been incommunicated with the outside for only some amount of time. The soldiers are pressuring McDermott to try to re-establish communications. These guys were certainly not out of touch with at least what was going on as far up north as Washington DC (which is not far from where we see the events in Land take place: it's one of the bordering states.) The fact that they are aware of how bad things have gotten is plainly seen in the fact that Logan can stick it to Rhodes' face that his threats about leaving the bunker are bluff: "Where will you go, captain?" Rhodes' answer to this simple "challenge": **crickets** He knows that things out there have gotten very bad and there is hardly much of any safe place to go to left, that's why he can't answer Logan's sarcastic question and has to swallow his pride in front of everyone (something which Rhodes evidently hates to have to do.) Now, do you seriously think that if such outposts like those we saw in Land, which were even reported by the MEDIA while it was still around (so no need to rely on Washington's feedback regarding their existence), were still around by the time of Day that a loud-mouth major A-HOLE like Rhodes would not have used them as an appropriate answer to the doctor's sarcastic "question"? Methinks that he would not have hesitated for a second: "Where will I go, Frankenstein? How about one of them outposts up north, Frankenstein? I will take my men and go there, and I'll leave you and your highfalutin asshole friends to rot in this stinking sewer! Is that answer enough for you, Frankenstein?"

[beat_truck]

Even if Land was before Day, which it's not, it would take a hell of a lot of doing, at either point in time, to get from that bunker in FL to an outpost in PA.

[EvilNed]

By the time we see what's going on in Day, they have been incommunicated with the outside for only some amount of time. The soldiers are pressuring McDermott to try to re-establish communications. These guys were certainly not out of touch with at least what was going on as far up north as Washington DC (which is not far from where we see the events in Land take place: it's one of the bordering states.) The fact that they are aware of how bad things have gotten is plainly seen in the fact that Logan can stick it to Rhodes' face that his threats about leaving the bunker are bluff: "Where will you go, captain?" Rhodes' answer to this simple "challenge": **crickets** He knows that things out there have gotten very bad and there is hardly much of any safe place to go to left, that's why he can't answer Logan's sarcastic question and has to swallow his pride in front of everyone (something which Rhodes evidently hates to have to do.) Now, do you seriously think that if such outposts like those we saw in Land, which were even reported by the MEDIA while it was still around (so no need to rely on Washington's feedback regarding their existence), were still around by the time of Day that a loud-mouth major A-HOLE like Rhodes would not have used them as an appropriate answer to the doctor's sarcastic "question"? Methinks that he would not have hesitated for a second: "Where will I go, Frankenstein? How about one of them outposts up north, Frankenstein? I will take my men and go there, and I'll leave you and your highfalutin asshole friends to rot in this stinking sewer! Is that answer enough for you, Frankenstein?" As I said, it's clearly shown in the film that they are not aware of the state of things.

[JDP]

As I said, it's clearly shown in the film that they are not aware of the state of things. And as I pointed out before, it is hardly the case. Communications between them and the outside have not been down for a very long time. The soldiers are still pressuring McDermott to re-establish them. They still have hope of contacting someone again. Also, do you seriously expect anyone to believe that out of 18 people in that bunker NONE ever heard the news reports about the outposts? Do you also seriously expect anyone to believe that thriving cities with THOUSANDS of survivors somehow went unnoticed by the people right next door in Washington? So, these folks in the US government are interested in knowing what's happening all the way down in Florida and constantly communicate with the people they sent down there, but they do not show the slightest interest in what's happening right at their doorstep??? It takes a gigantic leap of faith to expect that the people of Day somehow could not have known about such outposts that even the media itself had already reported on. Anyone wanting to see Land as happening after Day will keep on butting-heads with this bunch of contradictions and discrepancies. If Romero's intention was to indeed make Land happen after Day, he totally messed up. He should have thought about these plot details more carefully before introducing a movie that would clash with the previous installments. Not surprising that many hard-core fans disown Land (and let me say again, that technically it is not a bad movie; my main beef with it is regarding plot contradictions with the previous movies more than anything else.) - - - Updated - - - Even if Land was before Day, which it's not, it would take a hell of a lot of doing, at either point in time, to get from that bunker in FL to an outpost in PA. From the perspective of the soldiers, it sure beats the hell out of being besieged by increasing hordes of zombies! The soldiers in the bunker are progressively getting to the point that they do not care anymore, they want out, no matter what the risks are outside and how long they have to go to find a safe place. They just don't want to stay in that bunker any longer. Plus one guy in Land actually wants to have a nice trip by car (!) all the way up to Canada, just to see if maybe, just maybe, he can make it up there on his own... Can you imagine such a scenario in the obviously more devastated and zombie-infested (roughly 400,000 zombies per every human!) world of Day, where even travelling by chopper can be risky? Keep on beating the imaginary "dead horse" It won't make the bunch of pesky contradictions and discrepancies between both movies to magically "vanish". But one day you might realize that most of them do in fact "vanish" by simply considering the Land ----> Day order.

[EvilNed]

And as I pointed out before, it is hardly the case. It is the case. The soldiers are still pressuring McDermott to re-establish them. They still have hope of contacting someone again. Exactly my point. They're unaware of what deep shit they're in.

[MinionZombie]

It is the case. Aye, the theme of not knowing is throughout the film. From Logan's experiments doing nothing to prove anything new, to Sarah & Co's frustration with not being able to advance their research, to everyone not knowing what's really going on out there due to communication troubles and so forth. Plus, their chopper only has a range of what, a couple hundred miles? So you can only go out so far while keeping enough fuel in the tank for the trip back. Your radius, compared to the rest of the nation, is going to be limited.

[JDP]

It is the case. Exactly my point. They're unaware of what deep shit they're in. But that contradicts your point of view, not mine! According to the point of view of the Day ----> Land order, there actually are a whole bunch of people still left around on the surface, and not very far from Washington DC itself in fact. Why then should the guys in the government bunker down in Florida not entertain hopes of contacting someone again??? They would have plenty of reasons to. Leaving aside Land and the problems it (unwittingly?) introduced into the series, the people in Day already have good reason to still be hopeful that someone else is still out there somewhere, despite how bad things have gotten, because not too long ago they were still communicating with others. Sarah says that the government people in Washington are holing up in shelters as well. So these guys have a good excuse to keep on trying to contact somebody again, no matter how bad things have gotten. - - - Updated - - - Aye, the theme of not knowing is throughout the film. From Logan's experiments doing nothing to prove anything new, to Sarah & Co's frustration with not being able to advance their research, Logan did prove something "new": that some zombies can be "domesticated". It wasn't very useful to solve the problem, but he did prove the point. to everyone not knowing what's really going on out there due to communication troubles and so forth. Their communication troubles are only relatively recent. The soldiers are still surprised that no one seems to be "out there" and they are still putting pressure on their radio man to try to re-establish contact with the outside. Plus, their chopper only has a range of what, a couple hundred miles? So you can only go out so far while keeping enough fuel in the tank for the trip back. Your radius, compared to the rest of the nation, is going to be limited. That did not stop the survivors in Dawn to try to make it to Canada in the exact same way. You simply stop for refueling, as many times as it takes. Yes, it's risky, but desperate people will try it before allowing themselves to be besieged by increasing hordes of zombies. Plus in Land we have something that is even more dangerous: here we have a dude who wants to make the trip into the Canadian wilderness by car!!!

[MinionZombie]

That did not stop the survivors in Dawn to try to make it to Canada in the exact same way. You simply stop for refueling, as many times as it takes. Yes, it's risky, but desperate people will try it before allowing themselves to be besieged by increasing hordes of zombies. Plus in Land we have something that is even more dangerous: here we have a dude who wants to make the trip into the Canadian wilderness by car!!! In Dawn they're forced to flee, regardless of their fuel situation. They were planning on staying at the mall. As Fran says, they don't have much fuel. There's almost a hopelessness to it all - IIRC there was an idea floating around that they would put in the sound of a sputtering helicopter engine during the credits somewhere (i.e. the chopper runs out of juice). As for Riley and his car, we don't even get to see it, so we don't know how he'd set it up. The fact that it was in a workshop suggests it was being modified, especially as he was the architect behind Dead Reckoning. It wouldn't just be some family run around. Riley wants to escape the society he has found himself in, he wants to go out there alone rather than live in the re-established society ... a society, which, after being 'torn down' by the zombies is then re-re-established by the people on the street after the zombies leave en masse. The people on the ground take over and seek to build something new. They suggest Riley stick around, but he insists on leaving as he's in search of something else entirely - much like the zombies. Land has a running theme of recycling society. Revolution, evolution, change. Mankind falls, mankind rises, mankind falls again, mankind rises again. It's at the very core of our species' nature, so it doesn't make any sense that mankind wouldn't attempt (and succeed) at re-establishing some kind of organised community with as many of the trappings and systems of the old world as possible. To briefly return to the money issue and how some have a hard time buying it having any worth: in addition to it already being a currency all the people are very familiar with, in addition to the currency existing, just look at all this e-currency like BitCoin at the moment. It doesn't even physically exist and was just made up and had value applied to it. If that can be achieved, why can't a pre-apoc currency that physically exists, that people already know how to use and have attached value to, be brought back in pockets of societies that are all linked. It's a pretty simple notion to get your head around, I'm baffled by why some have such a hard time with it in regards to Land of the Dead.

[JDP]

In Dawn they're forced to flee, regardless of their fuel situation. They were planning on staying at the mall. As Fran says, they don't have much fuel. There's almost a hopelessness to it all - IIRC there was an idea floating around that they would put in the sound of a sputtering helicopter engine during the credits somewhere (i.e. the chopper runs out of juice). As for Riley and his car, we don't even get to see it, so we don't know how he'd set it up. The fact that it was in a workshop suggests it was being modified, especially as he was the architect behind Dead Reckoning. It wouldn't just be some family run around. Riley wants to escape the society he has found himself in, he wants to go out there alone rather than live in the re-established society ... a society, which, after being 'torn down' by the zombies is then re-re-established by the people on the street after the zombies leave en masse. The people on the ground take over and seek to build something new. They suggest Riley stick around, but he insists on leaving as he's in search of something else entirely - much like the zombies. Land has a running theme of recycling society. Revolution, evolution, change. Mankind falls, mankind rises, mankind falls again, mankind rises again. It's at the very core of our species' nature, so it doesn't make any sense that mankind wouldn't attempt (and succeed) at re-establishing some kind of organised community with as many of the trappings and systems of the old world as possible. To briefly return to the money issue and how some have a hard time buying it having any worth: in addition to it already being a currency all the people are very familiar with, in addition to the currency existing, just look at all this e-currency like BitCoin at the moment. It doesn't even physically exist and was just made up and had value applied to it. If that can be achieved, why can't a pre-apoc currency that physically exists, that people already know how to use and have attached value to, be brought back in pockets of societies that are all linked. It's a pretty simple notion to get your head around, I'm baffled by why some have such a hard time with it in regards to Land of the Dead. The guys in Dawn are doing what others are doing: getting out of the big cities since they are being overrun by the increasing numbers of zombies. Their original plan was not staying at a mall. They just made a stop on one, to catch their breath, take a look around, and then continue, likely all the way up to Canada, as Fran suggests. It's just that they then realized that they likely had a good thing going at the mall that made them stop their travels. Riley was just having a normal car fixed at that mechanic's shop, he obviously doesn't have the resources to build an armored vehicle a la Dead Reckoning. Plus no matter what modifications he would have made to it, you still have to stop to eat, go to the bathroom, sleep and/or refuel. In a world with zombies roaming around free it would be quite more dangerous to do this with a car than to do it with a helicopter. The more time you spend on the ground, the more potential encounters with the zombies, the very thing you are trying to avoid. In a helicopter you only really have to expose yourself to potential encounters with the zombies when you refuel (there is no choice but to land where the fuel is stored.) Eating, going to the bathroom and sleeping can be done on top of buildings where the zombies can't reach you. About paper money: it needs something backing it up, otherwise it is worthless. People will rather go back to bartering with actual physical goods than taking worthless paper for something that has value, or go back to gold & silver currency (which is what I think Romero should have done, not US dollars, which, if you consider the point of view that Land takes place after Day, would be worthless, as the government that backed it up is now pretty much gone itself.)

[EvilNed]

But that contradicts your point of view, not mine! According to the point of view of the Day ----> Land order, there actually are a whole bunch of people still left around on the surface, and not very far from Washington DC itself in fact. Why then should the guys in the government bunker down in Florida not entertain hopes of contacting someone again??? They would have plenty of reasons to. When they refer to Washington, they’re obviously refering to some higher authority within the military. This having only recently collapsed being a sign of how bad things are, something the soldiers are unwilling to accept. It’s all right there in the film, clear as Crystal. These guys don’t know what’s out there.

[JDP]

When they refer to Washington, they’re obviously refering to some higher authority within the military. This having only recently collapsed being a sign of how bad things are, something the soldiers are unwilling to accept. It’s all right there in the film, clear as Crystal. These guys don’t know what’s out there. The fact that communications are down and that their physical searches are "another waste of time" (notice the plural; they have been going around with the chopper more than once), are an indicator that they have a pretty good idea how bad things have gotten. The increasing horde of zombies accumulating at their very own doors is also another crystal clear indicator of what's going on out there. Logan has enough info on the subject to calculate that zombies now outnumber humans by something like 400,000 to one. Yes, they have a pretty good idea that the fecal matter has hit the fan out there!

[ElectricFire169]

Whoa, what did I miss? Just to go back briefly to the subject of the differences between Night and Diary, I think the films are all meant to be considered as happening "in the near future" and hence they're portrayed as having technology that would have been available to them at the time of the making of the film, rather than being a literal linear progression. That's how they can have analogue TVs in Night but digital cameras in Diary, imo. They're not meant to be set in a particular time period, they're just generally about "the end".

[EvilNed]

The fact that communications are down and that their physical searches are "another waste of time" (notice the plural; they have been going around with the chopper more than once), are an indicator that they have a pretty good idea how bad things have gotten. Clearly not, as indicated by Rickles and Steele's surprise at the start of the film. They are only now beginning to realize.

[MinionZombie]

ElectricFire169 - haha, you're stirred something up here. But it's nice to dig into some Romero chat again. Clearly not, as indicated by Rickles and Steele's surprise at the start of the film. They are only now beginning to realize. Indeed, their emotional outbursts and incapability clearly suggests this is all new to them. The people in Land have all got used to the idea quite considerably and are living with the problem (one of Romero's biggest intentions with that film - to show mankind 'stepping over' the problem). It makes no sense for Land to come before Day for that reason alone - not to mention the myriad other reasons laid out before in this thread.