TWD 5x09 "What Happened and What's Going On" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[Moon Knight]

Seems like "wolves" is/are going to be a recurring theme in Season 5B, as well. If you notice all the references than yeah, you're right. "Wolves not far" was written on a wall. I believe Michonne acknowledged it. Also, something tells me the barb wire fences weren't only for walkers. There is a shot as well of some trees that form a "W", and finally, the Walker torsos in the truck had "W"s carved into their foreheads. Next week's trailer also shows a pack of wolves leaping from the bushes. Very interesting.

[UndeadHippo]

For those keeping track, we had a car wreck, a Beth sing along and another black guy dying right after getting some character development. Standard TWD stuff. Standout moment for me was tyreese using his already bitten arm to fend off another bite before calling in an air strike, and noah suddenly being able to outrun the group on his gimpy leg. This season has been fairly brutal what with Bob, Beth and now Tyreese all buying the farm, makes me wonder who they'll kill off in the finale. If what others have said is right about the wolves and our favourite baseball bat wielding psychopath, I may have a rough idea...but is that just what they want us to think?

[Moon Knight]

^ To be fair, Tyreese has had some good character development the last two seasons. He had a storyline with Woodbury, Karen, Carol, Mika, and Lizzie, and himself. My only complaint was he really didn't spend a ton of time with Rick. With Daryl in the group that's just how it's gonna be. I hope Abraham doesn't have the same fate.

[MinionZombie]

Another thing to remember - the "X" marks on those trees - now, IIRC those were made by Gareth and Co, but could there be a link somehow to "W"? What's going to happen with Morgan? ^ To be fair, Tyreese has had some good character development the last two seasons. He had a storyline with Woodbury, Karen, Carol, Mika, and Lizzie, and himself. My only complaint was he really didn't spend a ton of time with Rick. With Daryl in the group that's just how it's gonna be. I hope Abraham doesn't have the same fate. Aye, Tyreese got plenty to do during his time on the show, so I'm not disappointed in that respect. Still a bugger when they kill off a favourite character, but then again it has to be - it's part of what TWD is - it might suck but it doesn't mean the show made the wrong decision, it just means they made us care about the character and we miss them now that they're gone, we feel an injustice has been done to one of ours like we're a member of Team Rick. Of course, back in season 3 they did make a hash of Andrea in the back half which was disappointing. Fortunately we're beyond that sort of carry on now - I'm very pleased by what they've been doing under Gimple's leadership.

[UndeadHippo]

This is all true. Tyreese got a lot of development for his time in the gang, and I really liked the guy. It also just occurred to me the title of this episode "what happened and what's going on"..... thangs. And stuff.

[Wyldwraith]

To respond to the "Team Rick is exhausted, dehydrated and been through the wringer...and this is why they make these sorts of mistakes." It's true enough, as far as it goes. The problem with that logic is that veteran survivors like Team Rick would and SHOULD be able to take such factors into account. A simple matter like taking a few pairs of blue jeans and fashioning a doubled-over layer of denim into arm-guards would have saved quite a few lives. Or raiding a sporting goods store, or school (you know, like the one near the church that got emptied out of Walkers when the glass finally broke) to find some football shoulder-guards. One could just as easily do the same thing with the legs up to the knee (doubling the layer of denim I mean). The group has experienced quite a few bite-casualties of the "It could so easily have been a non-fatal close call" that it stands to reason at least ONE of the group by this point would've come up with the notion. Necessity is the mother of invention, and before someone makes the "They're under stress and busy just trying to survive from day to day" argument, THAT PARTICULAR situation and state of mind is PRECISELY when humanity most often produces life-saving or life-improving innovations. After all, primitive man produced far more complex innovations a) Under different but equally adverse conditions as TWD survivors, and b) Without the benefit of the accumulation of knowledge we refer to as a "modern education." I mean the group immediately saw the benefit of using the riot gear they found at the prison, so the concept isn't unfamiliar to them....and that, coupled with the people they've lost (or had to perform amputations on to save) should be enough to prompt them to seek some protection for their extremities. After all, from the group's experience it's the Walker that surprises someone and gets in a bite during that first moment of surprise that has caused the majority of the deaths. Walkers are still limited to the dentition of a human being after all, so even if they can bite harder than a human because they feel no pain and are insensible to damaging themselves while biting, I just can't believe that a Walker could bite through TWO layers of denim. The notion would make even more sense to Team Rick BECAUSE they're aware that half the time they're on the move exhausted, sometimes dehydrated and nearly always underfed. Incidents like what just happened to Tyreese, and what happened to Herschel before him, should at some point drive the point home that it's the Walker-bite that comes as a surprise that is most often the bite that kills. In a face to face struggle the survivors nearly always come out on top even without someone else's help...and even then, that help is nearly always available if needed. That said, I understand that the characters doing something intelligent and well-reasoned, instigated by the same tragic event under the same exact circumstances time and again would force the show's writers to actually think, as opposed to repeating the same type of Walker-attack-sequence again and again, but there comes a point where it begins to beggar belief that individuals who are one bite away from a slow, lingering, painful death, who've lost numerous friends and family members to the bites of Walkers who caught them by surprise at this point, who've explored the concept of bite-protection on one level using pre-made armor, WOULDN'T now be engineering protection against such surprise bites. If nothing else, what just happened to Tyreese should have driven the point home. Not to mention that Rick's mindset which he expressed to Carl, ie "You are not safe, you're never safe" should put him in mind of engineering such protection. Bottom line, is it more believable the survivors wouldn't try to prevent losing people to these surprise bites? Or more believable that, having lost numerous group members to Walkers the victim didn't see coming until too late, with Tyreese being the latest to die under the same circumstances, that at least one member of the group would strongly champion the idea of this easy-to-produce protection? At what point have enough lives been lost to the Walkers they don't see coming before doing something to at least mitigate the risk of it happening again, and again, and again becomes not only prudent, but so obvious that NOT taking such steps becomes akin to insanity? Postscript: I do get it. The world of TWD is supposed to vibrate with a feeling of omnipresent danger, and the danger the characters constantly have to face is at the core of the dramatic elements of the show, but having characters overlook basic sensible precautions after having been exposed to the same exact danger under the same exact circumstances begins IMHO to undermine the sense of drama because the viewer's frustration with the characters lack of common sense gets in the way. Better by far that the writers stretch their creative muscles and explore new avenues of demonstrating the zombie threat. Several zombie movies have depicted survivors who took steps to protect themselves without undermining the danger or grim and bleak nature of the post-apocalyptic world the characters struggle to survive in. Why not TWD? Again I say, not having the characters take such steps at this point amounts to nothing more than writer laziness.

[facestabber]

^ Wylde I hear what your saying. Very honest and truthful as to what TWD writers are giving us. Tyrese getting bit like that made me roll my eyes and say "come on man". Unless the show is implying that Walkers are evolving and gaining intelligence, they have no reason to be silent when approaching a meal. Walkers would announce their presence quite readily. Not disputing what you said but I will add in a word that dooms many people. Complacency. In my line of work it gets us killed. It's just a human reality, that we become complacent. Think of being in that hot Georgia sun and you have head to toe protective gear but haven't seen a Walker for days. Our minds are aware we are safer with the gear on but the relief of taking layers off feels so good. Hahahaha.

[Wyldwraith]

@Facestabber: Excellent point about complacency, but I wouldn't expect Team Rick to wear such protection *all* the time...just when, say, they're going to investigate the interior of a dead-silent formerly-gated and now exploded-gated residential communities in which they laid eyes on a Walker staggering down the middle of the street within five seconds of entering said community. Another point about the effectiveness of denim arm-guards: Tyreese demonstrated this point himself. Walkers grab the nearest part of a live human they can, not the nearest *unprotected part*...if you had a couple layers of denim on your forearm you could just shove said forearm in a Walker's face, and kill it while it's going for said protected forearm. Since the arm is closest, it will never go for any other part of the body. The heat issue is a valid one too, but again not suggesting such protection is every minute of the day wear. After all, rattlesnake wranglers don't wear their anti-snakebite gear unless needed, right?

[Moon Knight]

C'mon, man, Walkers can bite through denim. Just ask Zack.

[Publius]

@Facestabber: Excellent point about complacency, but I wouldn't expect Team Rick to wear such protection *all* the time...just when, say, they're going to investigate the interior of a dead-silent formerly-gated and now exploded-gated residential communities in which they laid eyes on a Walker staggering down the middle of the street within five seconds of entering said community. Another point about the effectiveness of denim arm-guards: Tyreese demonstrated this point himself. Walkers grab the nearest part of a live human they can, not the nearest *unprotected part*...if you had a couple layers of denim on your forearm you could just shove said forearm in a Walker's face, and kill it while it's going for said protected forearm. Since the arm is closest, it will never go for any other part of the body. The heat issue is a valid one too, but again not suggesting such protection is every minute of the day wear. After all, rattlesnake wranglers don't wear their anti-snakebite gear unless needed, right? This is true. I was going to reply to your previous post noting the heat issue. In pre-modern wars often disease killed more people than bullets, swords, spears, or arrows did, and it probably wouldn't help much to trade bite casualties for heat exhaustion casualties. Plus speed, agility, and endurance count for a lot, and that has to be balanced against protection. But you're quite right that there'd be little weight penalty and a lot of utility from carrying around some denim or leather forearm guards which could be slipped on before clearing a building or compound.

[Buzzbomb]

Wyldwraith's commentary makes a lot of sense... The original Atlanta group wore protective gear when clearing the alleyway (when Glen rescued Rick)... & Milton also demonstrated that duck tape on his shirt was 'biter proof'. It's not rocket science. I guess it's just more expedient for the producers to have survivors wandering around vulnerable to bites on arms, through clothing etc... I reckon far fewer deaths occur in the TWD universe from zombie bites than from other survivors, despite how dead significantly outnumber the living.

[facestabber]

I'd say a leather/denim jacket with heavy duty gloves sewn to the sleeve would be about as smart as an investment as any for protecting against a cheap Walker bite. I would like to think I would be that careful in that world. But a person must also consider additional protection against humans. There has to be body armor/bullet resistant vests around. Entering unknown buildings, I would be far more concerned with human threats. Being able to take rounds in the upper torso and stay in the fight would be a big advantage. Then again, in TWD universe everyone is capable of head shots in high stress situations.

[Wyldwraith]

You're absolutely right Facestabber, a decent leather/denim jacket would do the job and not even require the utterly minimal job of actually manipulating some cut-apart blue jeans or somesuch. If you want to talk about complacency, check out the commercial previewing the upcoming episode.   Team Rick just plodding down the highway with 30-40 Walkers plodding along behind them about twenty-five feet behind them I mean C'MON, is there ANYONE HERE who wouldn't prefer to be a little warm rather than cool and unprotected if you had a mini-horde of flesheating undead less than a first down's distance behind you? The more I think about this issue, the more absurd it gets that these people are wandering around bare-armed (and legged for that matter) three years into a zombie apocalypse. As for gear to protect yourself from other survivors, that's a bit more problematic. One thing that bugs me about firearms in TWD is that you so rarely see shotguns being employed. Yes, I realize that other than at very, very close range unless using slugs or 00 buckshot (and even then only opening up the range a bit when you consider the need for headshots) shotguns aren't great versus Walkers. Yet other than .22's, shotguns are going to be one of the most commonly owned by civilians firearm-types you'd find, and the ammo would be relatively plentiful as well. Especially considering how many people wouldn't even bother to pick up the lighter-shot shells. I know from *personal* experience that one can kill much, MUCH larger creatures than the type of shot is designed for if you're very close. I killed a 91lbs feral pig with birdshot from a 16-gauge shotgun while hunting quail with my stepdad. Surprised the pig in tall grass/brush, it came in my direction at a slow trot and made some sounds I didn't like, so I pumped three shells worth of 8-shot into its face and neck. The pig died quite quickly and without much further forward advancement. I would therefore argue one could easily kill a Walker at 20 feet with a couple blasts of birdshot if you're good with a shotgun. NOT ideal, of course, but not everyone has the neverending supply of .357 rounds that Rick does (All the more impressive considering .357s aren't even available as retail firearms any longer, and in most gun stores the ammunition must be purchased by special order, ahead of time-of-purchase. So it would MOST DEFINITELY NOT be lying around anywhere but in the home of say, a now-deceased former gun owner...and unless they died almost immediately after the onset of the Walkers rising, it's quite likely they would've expended much of what ammunition they did have in self-defense before expiring. But that's another matter for another discussion.) In any case, a survivor armed with a shotgun loaded with slugs or double-ought buckshot would break multiple ribs if they shot someone wearing a bullet-resistant vest at anything but extreme long range. The same would be true for many of the larger caliber rounds. Especially given the way survivors seem to pump numerous rounds into/at whatever they're shooting at in TWD universe. At 10-30 feet anything more powerful than a .38 would break ribs and possibly cause other internal injuries that would be a slow death sentence in TWD universe. If my choices were being shot in the chest and having cue-ball-sized holes blasted out my back from 2-4 .45 rounds pumped into my chest at close range, or having 4 ribs badly broken, one of which badly punctured my right lung, causing my lung(s) to slowly fill with blood effectively drowning me because I took the same 2-4 .45 rounds in the chest at close range while wearing a ballistic vest, honestly I'd rather get shot while not wearing the vest and just get on with the dying quickly from massive blood loss, crashing blood pressure and shock, any of which would render me unconscious in minutes, making the rest of my dying not too terribly unpleasant. Anyone else feel similarly?

[facestabber]

You're absolutely right Facestabber, a decent leather/denim jacket would do the job and not even require the utterly minimal job of actually manipulating some cut-apart blue jeans or somesuch. If you want to talk about complacency, check out the commercial previewing the upcoming episode.   Team Rick just plodding down the highway with 30-40 Walkers plodding along behind them about twenty-five feet behind them I mean C'MON, is there ANYONE HERE who wouldn't prefer to be a little warm rather than cool and unprotected if you had a mini-horde of flesheating undead less than a first down's distance behind you? The more I think about this issue, the more absurd it gets that these people are wandering around bare-armed (and legged for that matter) three years into a zombie apocalypse. As for gear to protect yourself from other survivors, that's a bit more problematic. One thing that bugs me about firearms in TWD is that you so rarely see shotguns being employed. Yes, I realize that other than at very, very close range unless using slugs or 00 buckshot (and even then only opening up the range a bit when you consider the need for headshots) shotguns aren't great versus Walkers. Yet other than .22's, shotguns are going to be one of the most commonly owned by civilians firearm-types you'd find, and the ammo would be relatively plentiful as well. Especially considering how many people wouldn't even bother to pick up the lighter-shot shells. I know from *personal* experience that one can kill much, MUCH larger creatures than the type of shot is designed for if you're very close. I killed a 91lbs feral pig with birdshot from a 16-gauge shotgun while hunting quail with my stepdad. Surprised the pig in tall grass/brush, it came in my direction at a slow trot and made some sounds I didn't like, so I pumped three shells worth of 8-shot into its face and neck. The pig died quite quickly and without much further forward advancement. I would therefore argue one could easily kill a Walker at 20 feet with a couple blasts of birdshot if you're good with a shotgun. NOT ideal, of course, but not everyone has the neverending supply of .357 rounds that Rick does (All the more impressive considering .357s aren't even available as retail firearms any longer, and in most gun stores the ammunition must be purchased by special order, ahead of time-of-purchase. So it would MOST DEFINITELY NOT be lying around anywhere but in the home of say, a now-deceased former gun owner...and unless they died almost immediately after the onset of the Walkers rising, it's quite likely they would've expended much of what ammunition they did have in self-defense before expiring. But that's another matter for another discussion.) In any case, a survivor armed with a shotgun loaded with slugs or double-ought buckshot would break multiple ribs if they shot someone wearing a bullet-resistant vest at anything but extreme long range. The same would be true for many of the larger caliber rounds. Especially given the way survivors seem to pump numerous rounds into/at whatever they're shooting at in TWD universe. At 10-30 feet anything more powerful than a .38 would break ribs and possibly cause other internal injuries that would be a slow death sentence in TWD universe. If my choices were being shot in the chest and having cue-ball-sized holes blasted out my back from 2-4 .45 rounds pumped into my chest at close range, or having 4 ribs badly broken, one of which badly punctured my right lung, causing my lung(s) to slowly fill with blood effectively drowning me because I took the same 2-4 .45 rounds in the chest at close range while wearing a ballistic vest, honestly I'd rather get shot while not wearing the vest and just get on with the dying quickly from massive blood loss, crashing blood pressure and shock, any of which would render me unconscious in minutes, making the rest of my dying not too terribly unpleasant. Anyone else feel similarly? Shane's Mossberg would be a damn good tool to have. 8rnd tube and 1 piped = 9 powerful rounds. Ideally I'd use buckshot. Slugs would be handy to have on hand if the threat is non Walker. You are right that lesser loads would still be effective. I believe even bird shot in tight enviro's like clearing a house would be more than enough to take down Walkers. The issue with shotguns is the bulkiness of the shells and weight. I can carry 30 5.56 rounds conveniently in a single magazine. I can fire all 30 rounds in rapid succession. 30 shot shells takes up a lot of space. Reloading 1 shell at a time is not very efficient compared to magazine fed weapons. I love a shotgun but if I have to choose between 1 long gun, I'd choose my ACR or SCAR before my 12 gauge. Don't get me wrong I'd carry both as long as I could. Oh and you're correct about .357 being sparse. I have a .357 and never shoot it. Ammo is ridiculously pricey and my semi autos are more satisfying to shoot. Revolvers look neat but I've never bought into their hype. Most plentiful rounds in the US(I would guess) 9mm, 12 gauge and 5.56. Regarding body armor. I don't know what the statistics are regarding slow deaths after taking rounds in a vest. I have no doubt many rounds will hurt like hell but if it stops penetration, I can most likely still fight. I'd take my chances with the armor.

[Trencher]

I alway been annoyed by how the characters move about in T-shirts and skinny jeans. As for Tyrese I have mixed feelings. How he have been characterized in the series have gone beyond moral paragon and into "is he retarded?" territory. The slow way he sometimes speak the way he insist on keeping the baby eater alive and how he sometimes look at people with those big eyes made me dismissive of the whole character. I just could not take him seriously. The Tyrese in the comics were a pro active leader type and a powerhouse. He was also very moral but not pacifistic up and until "I would let a thousand innocents die, if I could just save one guilty person.". Very strange character in the series and poorly written as well. Its a shame really because I think the actor was great and had some potential to show some real charisma and badassitude. ¨ As for the gated community. Do you think the guys who hit it were the same guys who hit the country club? Remember that one corpse in the country club who had her arms and legs cut off and put on a table, with the "rich bitch" sign? It could be a trademark way of killing something a serial killer would do, or an army of serial killers.. In any case I hope they dont do a rich vs poor angle with the wolves being the poor.